Modern Vespa

Hi, I have an unreliable tiltlock, and am hoping that if I describe the symptoms, someone may come up with a suggestion.
The machine is a 2007 MP3 250 in like new condition with just 5,020 Km.
Machine parked on centre stand.When ign turned ON, brief beep, NO Yellow Tiltlock indicator, flashing red lock failure light. I rocked the machine side to side (while still on stand) and the front seemed so rigid I thought it might be locked. Pushed it off stand and found it was NOT locked, nearly dropped it! I can ride it away and it runs great, except I dare not get off!! Noticed red tilt failure light flashing on briefly while in motion. The Piaggio has on a couple of occasions behaved normally , before reverting.
I have checked battery voltage and charge rate, both O.K. Checked and cleaned all fuses and the lower Tone wheel connectors. Seat switch checked O.K.
That is about IT. I cannot manage without a reliable Tiltlock, so I am hoping someone will recognize the symptoms and advise me.
Thanks Octogen (now should be Nonogen)

First thing to check is fluid level of the tilt lock system (it takes DOT4 brake fluid).

And if it has been 2 years (or longer) it is time to flush fluid in the tilt lock and brake systems.

Ditto on the cooling system. It takes G12 spec coolant. I use VW/Audi coolant, which is G12+ spec.

Thank you for the prompt advice. I will do as you say. It looks as if "they" haven't made it easy, hidden under all the plastic, and glossed over in the manual!
Cheers
Peter.

Be aware, brake fluid does not evaporate so if you find the reservoir low or empty then you have a leak somewhere.

Do check the tilt lock pressure switch as that is a known weak point.

Thanks for the further recommendations. All being well I will start removing the plastic bits tomorrow.
Peter

One more thing, being a 15 year old bike the tilt lock system is known to cause issues particularly with the master cylinder due to age.

As the fault comes and goes, could it still be the master cylinder? I hope not, if the problem is beyond me, I might as well cut my losses and sell the thing! Only dealership is a $4oo .00 tow away, and $125.00 per hour labour rate!!!
Checked the Hydraulic fluid level, O.K.
Thanks again,
Peter.

The MP3s are known for having master cylinder issues with the tilt lock as they get old.

IF you are a regular user of the system, then I would probably say "it's a miracle it lasted as long as it did"

You say "hydraulic level OK", but when was the last time the hydraulic fluid was flushed???

The tilt lock and front end suspension is the Achilles of the MP3, and need regular tending to.

BS about the master cylinder when the system does have fluid in it it wont go bad its a same one as the on the foot brake

only when it sitting dry for some years you only need to clean it and replace the O-ring and grease it

The most common problems are electronic a pot meter thats of a few degrees or a bad speed sensor or speed sensor cable or microswitch last one is less common

It will work with a bad pressure sensor simply disconnect the purple plug and you wont hear the horn anymore, Tiltlock will work normaly

another thing is the caliper cable to tight or loose

If tilt lock was used regularly, and particulary if the bike was left for extended periods with tilt lock enabled, the sands of time will take its toll on the master cylinder.

Thanks for the latest advice, it is reassuring to know that there are enthusiasts "out there" willing to help someone in trouble.
I do not think I explained that I have only had this particular Mp3 for a week or so. Everything worked fine on my test run, and the next outing,but then the Tiltlock became sporadic, and is now non-functional.
Maksor, you refer to sounding of horn on error, mine remains silent, no yellow Tiltlock light, just a flashing Error light. Re. the caliper cable, The actuating arm is vertical (12 o'clock), and the Bowden cable has slack in it. Re the purple plug, Where is it located?i I
cannot see one, just a blue, and two black plugs, one with a splash of yellow on it.
Again, my thanks to those who have offered advice

Check cable actuating the tilt-lock brake. Also check the limit switch on that brake as well, it's a tiny switch at one end of the tilt-lock brake lever.

Can you do more test? Particularly the behaviour when it has red tilt lock. Does the motor and tilt-lock gear move normally? You can see it moving up down and gear moving through the access port. Does the hydraulic (suspension) and mechanical (brake) locking work with the condition?

My guess is the mechanical lock because it doesn't horn or beep, just silent.

Seeing your query regarding motor and lock gear moving, I suspect I may not have emphasized just how basic the failure is. All I get is the flashing red failure light, not a peep from the tilt motor mechanism whatever I try. I had hoped the problem might an easy one, like a fuse, but no such luck. Do the yellow relays have any function in this system?
You refer to a "tiny switch at one end of the tilt-lock brake lever" is this at the caliper assembly end of the actuating cable.?
thanks for your advice.
Best wishes Octogen

You can follow the post here: SUCCESS!!! Red Tilt light and continuous alarm after crash.

The micro switch is the tiny rectangular blue/cyan device that sense the on/off of the mechanical tilt lock. It's part of the tilt lock brake caliper.

You can check the motor making sure it's moving freely by opening an access port (black plastic piece ) on the motor.

I think one of the yellow relay will connect to the tilt lock motor. It might cause problem, but I think it will give you a beep-tantrum with this problem.

Another possibility that relates to silent tilt lock fault indicator, is the faulty tilt lock switch/control on the handlebar. Occasionally on mine, if the Tilt-on position got stuck, it will give solid failure indicator. Most often, the circuit was intermittent and I also had intermittent failure indicator. You can check the operation of this control per manual and carry out tests with your multimeter.

Octogen,
I have recent in depth experience with my 2008 400 which I bought in distressed condition last summer. As you know by now there are a lot of posts on this subject, many contain useful information and some that don't. These are the things I had to correct to get mine working.
First thing, do you ride in the rain or has the scoot been out in the weather a lot? The tilt gearbox is known to get water in it, mine was completely frozen by rust. Pop to little black cover off the side and see if there's any evidence of water or rust. If so, count on a tear down of the gearbox. There is a Piaggio bulletin about drilling holes to drain the water.
The tilt lock has two components, the electric motor / gearbox / cable / disk brake type lock that keeps the scoot from tipping over by mechanically locking the parallelogram system and separate from that is the hydraulic master cylinder / slave cylinders on the shocks that lock the front shock rods. This system will work fine without the hydraulic components, it will rock a little more but won't actually fall over unless you get really rough with it. The only thing that happens is that awful alarm you get from low hydraulic pressure, just pull the connector off the switch to stop that.
The sensor on the gearbox that they often refer to as a potentiometer is actually a repurposed throttle position sensor from some automobile application. It gets 5 volts from the computer and returns a signal between 1 and 4 volts to locate the gear so it doesn't collide with its internal stops. It cannot be tested with an ohmmeter, you need to hook it up to a 5v source and ground and check the voltage output to ground. The micro switch on the lock caliper is there to let the computer know when the system is fully released.
There is no adjustment for the sensor.
Other things to check are the wheel sensors, be sure to remove them and clean any crap off of them, also be aware that the seat sensor must be working. I had mine bypassed with a resistor and it seemed ok but for some reason the lock wouldn't operate until I actually hooked the seat up.
Some posters have left the hydraulics unhooked with no apparent problem and some actually prefer being able to have a little extra control when the system is locked. If I had it to do over I would not have spent the money for the new master cylinder.
Adjust the cable tight enough to lock the tilt, there are large springs inside the gearbox to allow for some variation.
So as you can see there is a lot to this. I spent 30 years in the electronics business and I really feel for anybody who is not mechanically accomplished and technically oriented. Your dealer may be no help at all if you even have one, and some parts are not available or expensive. I have already built my own controls for the remote seat release and the turn / hazard signals, and I expect to have to improvise more in the future to keep on the road. Spend some time reading all the posts on this and good luck.

Thank you Zoltman, for putting together such a clear and comprehensive description of the workings and weaknesses of the tiltlock system.I will be looking more closely into a number of points on my machine, though I think I will need to remove more plastic first!, AND find a good way to raise the machine to a comfortable working level, as I find it difficult to get up after fiddling with the tone wheel connections.
Like you, I worked in the electronics field for about 30 years, but that was from 1950 on retiring before integrated circuits took off, but I am still O.K with testmeters and fault tracing.
I will take a look at the tone wheels, though the whole suspension system looks shiny new like the rest of the machine. I only got to ride it a few KM.before the lock failed, then worked intermittently , then completely refused to work. The Handlebar switch seems to work
properly, as does the seat switch, though I will try bypassing it ..
Anyway, I will get down to more tests soon and report in.
Thanks again for the great explanation.
Cheers
Octogen, now a nonogen.

A couple of other things I learned here, you can hit the unlock switch quickly twice to reset the system, this worked for me when I had a tone wheel problem. Also there is a screwdriver slot in the end of the motor shaft under a black cover that will allow you to turn the motor manually. It will take a lot of turns because it is a worm drive. You can run the motor by jumping to 12 volts, but if you allow it to hit the stops you can damage the gearbox. Most of the inputs can be checked with a multimeter at the controller plug, but it's about the hardest thing to get to on the whole machine.

Octogen
Sadly,my system seems so totally dead that the unlock switch trick does nothing.I even ordered a new switch (arriving Monday) because my tracing of it's action looked wrong, but I have since found the diagram in the manual for the 400,and the pinouts seem O.K.
I was beginning ti realize I will have to dig MUCH deeper to reveal the control box, which is a pain since there is s lot of valuable material in the manual regarding voltage and resistance checks!
There is a block of Yellow cased relays top left, which I would like to test. I had hoped they were plug-ins, but they seem solidly mounted. Can they be removed, is there a trick ??
I will take a look at the motor as per your description.
Again, my thanks for your advice and guidance
Best wishes,
Octogen.

If it's that dead you might want to start with the fuse for the tilt lock, the fuses do often develop poor connection. I recall the motor is driven directly from the control unit, I don't believe there are any relays for it.

Octogen.
The first thin I did was toremove, test, and clean all the fuses,using a contact cleaner. I have just made sure by replacing the relevant fuses with new (tested ones...no Joy.
I have just received the new handlebar switch and fitted it....no change.
The seat switch seemed to work O.K. when I tested it by tapping in to the wiring. Am I right in thinking that even if it were faulty, there would at least be SOME sign of life??
Next step I plan to take a look at the tone wheel sensors...having checked and cleaned the connections. Do I get at them by unbolting theassembly wnto which the cables plug?..Any warnings? the manual seems to miss this out.
I guess I will have to remove more plastic befor I can get to the motor shaft!
Thanks again for youe continuing help and patience.
Cheers
Octogen.
P.S.Have attached a couple of shots of the machine.

Is it just me, or do those relays in the quad look crooked or off in some way???

Could possibly explain why your tilt lock is pretty much dead as a doornail.

Also, that coolant expansion tank is either very low or empty. And if it does contain coolant, it is the wrong type. You should use G12 spec coolant. I use genuine VW/Audi coolant which is G12+

Octogen.
The relays can move a little, which is why I was hoping they were plug-in type.Do you know if they can be unplugged, or are they wired in?
I was also fooled by the coolant reservoir. It is pretty well filled, but seems to made of brownish opaque plastic!! I will remember your advice when changing the coolant.
Thanks for your comments.
octogen

The relays plug in but they can be tight. You might squirt a little wd40 under them and carefully pry under the yellow cube to separate from the base.
The wheel sensors are held in by one bolt, they should pull straight out and it is possible to twist them a bit if necessary. The barrel needs to come out of the spindle an inch or so to be free.

The relays plug in but they can be tight. You might squirt a little wd40 under them and carefully pry under the yellow cube to separate from the base.
The wheel sensors are held in by one bolt, they should pull straight out and it is possible to twist them a bit if necessary. The barrel needs to come out of the spindle an inch or so to be free.

do not use WD 40 on electrical contacts.

if you need a contact lube use LPS1

^This.

Why is it people think that WD40 is the end all and be all for every little vehicle job?

WD40 is a water dispersant, nothing more. It is not a lubricant, oil, grease, contact cleaner, massage oil, etc, etc, etc.

Personally, I think of WD40 as old WW2 junk.

Why is it that some people think they know so much, and that their ideas are superior? I make comments based on many years of personal experience, things that work well for me, and I get flamed for it. I almost gave up on this forum after my last episode, but this time I think I'm done.

Octogen.
Don't let the flaming get to you!
You have been very helpful with my problems, I for one would hate to lose your expertise.
Cheers
Octogen

I validate & share your experience
This forum while not unique, certainly has it's share of crusty old guys ready to go deep over distinctions without difference

The thing is, octogen, that none of the relays really have anything to do with the operation of the tilt lock. There is one used to honk the horn if the hydraulic pressure is low, which is nothing but a nuisance. Most of the other functions connect directly to the tilt controller. There are 2 power feeds. One from the 20A battery fuse and one from the 7.5A ignition fuse, so I'd be checking those and also the ground connection. You can verify the sensor and switch connections from the tilt lock controller plug once you get there.

Octogen
Had another check on the fuses, including the 7.5A not mentioned in the manual as being part of it.. EARTH CONNECTION AND TONE WHEELS? TOMORROW IF TIME.
iN order to test the latter I need to raise the front wheels off the ground, but can not see a convenient jacking point There is mention af jacking under the "cattle catcher" but mth 250 does not have one, or at least mine doesn't. Thanks again for your help.
Octogen

sorry you feel butt hurt, but the truth is the truth, WD 40 is not for electrical contacts. LPS1 is for electrical contacts.

my many years of experience is over 50 years of wrenching, started by assembling M/C's when I was 12. Add many years of racing mini bikes to dirt bikes, moved on to aircraft after join the military then after that back to wrenching for fun again.

product spot light:
https://www.itwprobrands.com/product/lps-1

I have a length of 2x4 cut to fit between the front suspension arms
that lifts both sides with a floor jack.

won't work for trying to release and lock the suspension freely, this would still make it act like it on the ground, the front wheels are just not contacting the ground is all.

need to lift the front end so the suspension is free hanging. this way the op cycle and move the legs up and down.

The wheel sensors are right out front, you shouldn't need to lift the scoot to get to them. You can check the resistance and clean off any crap that may have accumulated on them, not really necessary to check the targets.

Octogen
I thought by lifting and rotating the wheels I could see if There was a signal there, but I will do asyou suggest and clean and check resistance, What are you referring to as "Targets"???

I don't know if it is a clue, but There is about 5mm slack at the drive end of the Bowden cable .When I took up the slack, the yellow tilt warning light E lit (first time I have seen that since the trouble started) accompanied by slow long warning tone ( new) and the usual flashing red Q light. Does this strike a chord with anyone???
Thanks again for the guidance.

If you get the cable too tight it will pull the lever away from the caliper microswitch. There should be some slack in it when unlocked.
The wheel sensors detect metal, in this case the bolts on the front wheel brake discs (targets). As the bolts pass by the sensors they generate a pulse to the controller. The spec for resistance is 774 - 946 ohms, away from the target.

Octogen.
Thanks once more for the helpful and informative response . I hope to get a look at the sensors today.