OP
@adri avatar
UTC

Atypical Canadian
2009 Vespa S50(LX150 motor swap), 2006 Vespa GTS250ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2222
Location: Toronto, Canada
 
Atypical Canadian
@adri avatar
2009 Vespa S50(LX150 motor swap), 2006 Vespa GTS250ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2222
Location: Toronto, Canada
UTC quote
I'm anticipating some people selling off their scoots as interest rates rise. Trying to decide on whether or not to keep or upgrade the Vespa S / LX. My only real complaint on this bike is that two-up, the brakes stink. Other than that, I love it and ride it like a devil

I would consider a used Primavera or Sprint if I knew they offered any additional stopping power two-up. I know they come with front-wheel-only ABS, which seems... strange(?) to me.

Has anyone done some two-up riding on both the LX/S and the Primavera/Sprint and can let me know if there is any noticeable improvement in brake performance?

Alternatively I could just throw on some braided brake lines, or maybe even think about going GTS250.... but in a perfect world I'd keep it small and just add stopping power.


Thoughts? Suggestions? Random dog memes? All are welcome.
@rottekatz avatar
UTC

Hooked
Primavera 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 128
Location: Monument, Colorado
 
Hooked
@rottekatz avatar
Primavera 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 128
Location: Monument, Colorado
UTC quote
I have been riding my 2021 Primavera 150 2 up with my wife and I find that brakes adequate. She just received her Buddy 125 so I'll be riding solo.
@corn avatar
UTC

Hooked
GTS300 Super
Joined: UTC
Posts: 102
Location: TN
 
Hooked
@corn avatar
GTS300 Super
Joined: UTC
Posts: 102
Location: TN
UTC quote
Not sure on your make/model, but upgrading the brakes might be something to look into.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/brake-calliper-brembo-front_2051660J
@jimc avatar
UTC

Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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Posts: 43226
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
 
Moderaptor
@jimc avatar
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 43226
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
UTC quote
The thinking behind front-wheel only ABS on a two-wheeler is that if you've jumped on the brakes so hard that the front is about to skid a bit, then the back wheel will hardly be touching the ground at all, providing almost zero braking force - and in all probability would have already locked up. Hopefully this way you'll remain upright.

The front tyre wears mainly from braking, and the rear tyre wears mainly from acceleration.
UTC

Member
20 GTS Super Tech 300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 43
Location: Brookfield, CT
 
Member
20 GTS Super Tech 300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 43
Location: Brookfield, CT
UTC quote
I did a brembo on my last 250ie and I didn't think it made that big of a difference. When I have to do it again I'll just go with a better pad
@motovista avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
GT 2.4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8744
Location: Watts in OK
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@motovista avatar
GT 2.4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8744
Location: Watts in OK
UTC quote
On a small disk, with a small single piston caliper, you can install better pads and rotors, but unless you are pushing it hard, you are going to see exactly as much improvement as you imagine there should be. Racing compound pads work very well, if you are racing. The Primavera and Sprint 150 use the same caliper as the GTS, and that should be an improvement on a small bike like that, but it's not going to be MotoGP better.
R&R the brake lines with something from this century might do more than most other suggestions, mainly because they are old and likely swell more than they did when new.
@oscarsass avatar
UTC

Hooked
Joined: UTC
Posts: 434
 
Hooked
@oscarsass avatar
Joined: UTC
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UTC quote
The issue with bikes is that adding a passenger makes for a substantial % increase in the total system weight, compared to adding a passenger to a car for example.

You'll always notice it a lot more on a bike. A 40% increase in weight will mean you have 40% more kinetic energy. That's a 40% longer stopping distance in an emergency, for example.

There's also the issue of weight transfer when braking - a lot more stress will be put on the front suspension and steering bearings with a passenger. Add more powerful brakes, and you might find that other bits can't cope as well as they did before, including your tyres.

Uprated/sintered/race pads are more aggressive, due to a higher metal content (and can come into their own, especially when warmed up), but they wear out your rotor/disc quicker. I fitted some Bremo sintered pads to a 600cc bike and they made quite a difference in biting power. Suppose it depends on who manufactures them, and how good their R&D is. Their intended use is important too - a 'race' pad might only offer a high co-efficient of friction at higher temperatures, therefore leaving them unsuitable for the road.

Braided hoses offer more feel, and a bit less squish in the system.
⚠️ Last edited by OscarSass on UTC; edited 2 times
OP
@adri avatar
UTC

Atypical Canadian
2009 Vespa S50(LX150 motor swap), 2006 Vespa GTS250ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2222
Location: Toronto, Canada
 
Atypical Canadian
@adri avatar
2009 Vespa S50(LX150 motor swap), 2006 Vespa GTS250ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2222
Location: Toronto, Canada
UTC quote
Tell me about it. Just got back from a two-up 2,000 km trip!

Sounds like my best move will be asking one of my customers if I can just borrow their scoot for five minutes, we scoot over to them two up, and then compare the two side by side.
@garthhh avatar
UTC

Addicted
2020 Liberty 150, 2020 MP3-500
Joined: UTC
Posts: 556
Location: Reno
 
Addicted
@garthhh avatar
2020 Liberty 150, 2020 MP3-500
Joined: UTC
Posts: 556
Location: Reno
UTC quote
jimc wrote:
The thinking behind front-wheel only ABS on a two-wheeler is that if you've jumped on the brakes so hard that the front is about to skid a bit, then the back wheel will hardly be touching the ground at all, providing almost zero braking force - and in all probability would have already locked up. Hopefully this way you'll remain upright.

The front tyre wears mainly from braking, and the rear tyre wears mainly from acceleration.
It's not easy to put an antilock system on a drum brake
OP
@adri avatar
UTC

Atypical Canadian
2009 Vespa S50(LX150 motor swap), 2006 Vespa GTS250ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2222
Location: Toronto, Canada
 
Atypical Canadian
@adri avatar
2009 Vespa S50(LX150 motor swap), 2006 Vespa GTS250ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2222
Location: Toronto, Canada
UTC quote
I think that's the real issue. Piaggio didn't want to spend the extra money on a rear disk, but needs to have "ABS" in many countries where ABS is mandatory... So this weird front tire only fuckery is what we end up with 🤪
@giallo avatar
UTC

Addicted
GTS 300 hpe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 789
Location: NYC
 
Addicted
@giallo avatar
GTS 300 hpe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 789
Location: NYC
UTC quote
jimc wrote:
The thinking behind front-wheel only ABS on a two-wheeler is that if you've jumped on the brakes so hard that the front is about to skid a bit, then the back wheel will hardly be touching the ground at all, providing almost zero braking force - and in all probability would have already locked up. Hopefully this way you'll remain upright.

The front tyre wears mainly from braking, and the rear tyre wears mainly from acceleration.
Rear wheel slips are also less consequential, that's why for example traction control is optional, meaning it can be switched off and ABS in most cases cannot be controlled by the rider.
@jimc avatar
UTC

Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 43226
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
 
Moderaptor
@jimc avatar
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 43226
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
UTC quote
giallo wrote:
Rear wheel slips are also less consequential, that's why for example traction control is optional, meaning it can be switched off and ABS in most cases cannot be controlled by the rider.
And if a combined ABS came into action when the back started to slip and acted on the front as well, that would NOT be good. ASR is fine for this.
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