Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:53 pm

Lurker
vnb5, vnb1, px200e, li125, 3kl
Joined: 20 Jun 2022
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Lurker
vnb5, vnb1, px200e, li125, 3kl
Joined: 20 Jun 2022
Posts: 3

Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:53 pm linkquote
I am in the process of building a motor from parts I have laying around. I have some early P cases, and an EFL gearbox. Before I re-invent the wheel, bugger up my cases, driveshaft, etc.. has anyone else done this?

If I leave out the inner oil seal, install an unsealed bearing, clip, and an old style p200 (27mm ID) oil seal on the outside, it seems like it should work, but it all seems too easy to actually work.. what am I missing?
Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:16 pm

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3563

 
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3563

Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:16 pm linkquote
It looks like you're on the right track. I've swapped EFL transmissions into 3 different early P cases. It's definitely a worthwhile modification. You're totally fine with keeping a sealed bearing (and I prefer having a sealed bearing). Remember to swap to an EFL selector box as well.
Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:49 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5991
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5991
Location: Nashville
Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:49 am linkquote
I put EFL gears in my P200 motor. It was such a "no big deal" swap that I wondered if I'd done it wrong.
Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:12 am

Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 3001
Location: Veria, Greece
 
Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 3001
Location: Veria, Greece
Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:12 am linkquote
As said, easy swap, don't forget the correct selector box. I keep my bearings open so the hub seal gets lubricated…
Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:36 am

Hooked
1968 VBB150
Joined: 04 Nov 2015
Posts: 441
Location: OC
 
Hooked
1968 VBB150
Joined: 04 Nov 2015
Posts: 441
Location: OC
Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:36 am linkquote
What's the advantage?
Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:39 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5991
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5991
Location: Nashville
Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:39 am linkquote
dsnyder586 wrote:
What's the advantage?
With EFL, the cruciform locks into the gears better, so it won't pop out of gear under hard acceleration.
Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:32 am

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 3179
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 3179
Location: california
Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:32 am linkquote
Done it as well, on earlier cases.
Required a special Xmas tree shaft to match fly side case bushing to larger ID efl Xmas tree bearing.
Your likely won't need but posting here so u/others aware it exists.
Like the certainty of the efl as others noted.
Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:00 am

Style Maven
'74 50s x3 '78 P200 E '84 Cosa '91 PK50XL2 '58 AllState '68 Sprint '80 50special and a '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 8613
Location: seattle/athens
 
Style Maven
'74 50s x3 '78 P200 E '84 Cosa '91 PK50XL2 '58 AllState '68 Sprint '80 50special and a '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 8613
Location: seattle/athens
Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:00 am linkquote
Some good detail here like that Xmas tree business. Is there a surefire way to ID what gears are inside from outside the motor? Some detail we can find on the different shift boxes maybe? Motor serial number should help if we know the where EFL starts.
Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:03 am

Hooked
Joined: 14 Jan 2018
Posts: 106
Location: no matter where you go, there you are
 
Hooked
Joined: 14 Jan 2018
Posts: 106
Location: no matter where you go, there you are
Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:03 am linkquote
Not a great pic but small grooves 'lock' the cruciform into place under load. 'Old' style relies on the selector box only to hold the cruciform in the right place.
chandlerman wrote:
With EFL, the cruciform locks into the gears better, so it won't pop out of gear under hard acceleration.



Can just make out the slight grooves in the cruciform channel.

Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:28 am

Hooked
Joined: 14 Jan 2018
Posts: 106
Location: no matter where you go, there you are
 
Hooked
Joined: 14 Jan 2018
Posts: 106
Location: no matter where you go, there you are
Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:28 am linkquote
V oodoo wrote:
Some good detail here like that Xmas tree business. Is there a surefire way to ID what gears are inside from outside the motor? Some detail we can find on the different shift boxes maybe? Motor serial number should help if we know the where EFL starts.
Not sure if it is surefire, but most of what I have seen states the old style lever in 3rd gear sits ~1.5mm above the surface of the selector box mating/gasket surface. The EFL 'Lusso' style sits flush in 3rd gear.



Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:10 pm

Lurker
vnb5, vnb1, px200e, li125, 3kl
Joined: 20 Jun 2022
Posts: 3

 
Lurker
vnb5, vnb1, px200e, li125, 3kl
Joined: 20 Jun 2022
Posts: 3

Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:10 pm linkquote
charlieman22 wrote:
Required a special Xmas tree shaft to match fly side case bushing to larger ID efl Xmas tree bearing.
I can confirm this.. I had to move my old P xmas tree shaft to the EFL gear stack. The EFL shaft (on mine at least) has a larger diameter thingy at the unthreaded end. Everything else about it measures out roughly the same.

On review later the same evening, I found that it would appearantly would have worked to leave the entire xmas tree alone.. I did not find a substantial difference in dimensions, gear spacing, etc. Nor was there any difference in tooth counts between the old p200 tree and the EFL tree. The short story is that I could have (apparently) upgraded to EFL by changing the drive shaft, loose gears, and selector box alone. Please accept this information with a grain of salt.. the motor has yet to run. I build stuff sober, but I only internet after a couple beers. If it fails to run reliably because of a fault in this information, I'll update this post once I am released from the hospital.

fnord,
bc
Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:06 pm

Lurker
vnb5, vnb1, px200e, li125, 3kl
Joined: 20 Jun 2022
Posts: 3

 
Lurker
vnb5, vnb1, px200e, li125, 3kl
Joined: 20 Jun 2022
Posts: 3

Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:06 pm linkquote
V oodoo wrote:
Is there a surefire way to ID what gears are inside from outside the motor? Some detail we can find on the different shift boxes maybe?
As far as I know, the only way to tell if you have a factory built EFL motor is to pull the rear hub. EFL bikes have the hub seal inside the bearing. Everything else puts that seal closer to the hub. Another feller posted some good info on shiftbox ID.. that might be the easiest. You might also make reasonable guesses based on the year; anything built in the 2000s is probably EFL, and I think I have seen some 90s engines with them as well.. watch for the names Lusso or Acrobaleno (I have no idea what they mean), but they usually indicate very late PXnnnE engines. More educated folks than I may chime in here to clarify/correct/flame.
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:31 pm

Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 3001
Location: Veria, Greece
 
Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 3001
Location: Veria, Greece
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:31 pm linkquote
There were also the "crossover" EFL axles, keeping the outside seal. Most of the ones I have worked with and also have installed on my Vespas are the crossover axles…

Arcobaleno means rainbow. Lusso means luxury and was the German market equivalent of the Arcobaleno…
Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:07 am

Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 2684
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 2684
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:07 am linkquote
I read this post a few times and am still a bit confused, when I get my P200 cases and start moving stuff around will add pictures and have questions I'm sure.

Any reason not to use new drive axle sealed bearing setup? Maybe even add weep hole? Looks like this change was done to keep gearbox oil from dripping or leaking into housing with brake shoes. I know I saw a picture of this on here somewhere.
Fri Jun 24, 2022 8:35 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5991
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5991
Location: Nashville
Fri Jun 24, 2022 8:35 am linkquote
SaFiS wrote:
Arcobaleno means rainbow. Lusso means luxury and was the German market equivalent of the Arcobaleno…
Leave it to the Germans to decide rainbows aren't luxurious
Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:12 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 5993
Location: San Diego, CA
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 5993
Location: San Diego, CA
Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:12 am linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
Leave it to the Germans to decide rainbows aren't luxurious
Actually they decided that rainbows ARE luxurious and should be recognized as such.
Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:32 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5991
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5991
Location: Nashville
Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:32 am linkquote
sdjohn wrote:
Actually they decided that rainbows ARE luxurious and should be recognized as such.
"Vee haf Vays of makingk kyou *luxuriate*"
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