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I am in the process of building a motor from parts I have laying around. I have some early P cases, and an EFL gearbox. Before I re-invent the wheel, bugger up my cases, driveshaft, etc.. has anyone else done this?

If I leave out the inner oil seal, install an unsealed bearing, clip, and an old style p200 (27mm ID) oil seal on the outside, it seems like it should work, but it all seems too easy to actually work.. what am I missing?
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It looks like you're on the right track. I've swapped EFL transmissions into 3 different early P cases. It's definitely a worthwhile modification. You're totally fine with keeping a sealed bearing (and I prefer having a sealed bearing). Remember to swap to an EFL selector box as well.
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I put EFL gears in my P200 motor. It was such a "no big deal" swap that I wondered if I'd done it wrong.
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As said, easy swap, don't forget the correct selector box. I keep my bearings open so the hub seal gets lubricated…
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What's the advantage?
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dsnyder586 wrote:
What's the advantage?
With EFL, the cruciform locks into the gears better, so it won't pop out of gear under hard acceleration.
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Done it as well, on earlier cases.
Required a special Xmas tree shaft to match fly side case bushing to larger ID efl Xmas tree bearing.
Your likely won't need but posting here so u/others aware it exists.
Like the certainty of the efl as others noted.
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Some good detail here like that Xmas tree business. Is there a surefire way to ID what gears are inside from outside the motor? Some detail we can find on the different shift boxes maybe? Motor serial number should help if we know the where EFL starts.
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Not a great pic but small grooves 'lock' the cruciform into place under load. 'Old' style relies on the selector box only to hold the cruciform in the right place.
chandlerman wrote:
With EFL, the cruciform locks into the gears better, so it won't pop out of gear under hard acceleration.
Can just make out the slight grooves in the cruciform channel.
Can just make out the slight grooves in the cruciform channel.
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V oodoo wrote:
Some good detail here like that Xmas tree business. Is there a surefire way to ID what gears are inside from outside the motor? Some detail we can find on the different shift boxes maybe? Motor serial number should help if we know the where EFL starts.
Not sure if it is surefire, but most of what I have seen states the old style lever in 3rd gear sits ~1.5mm above the surface of the selector box mating/gasket surface. The EFL 'Lusso' style sits flush in 3rd gear.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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charlieman22 wrote:
Required a special Xmas tree shaft to match fly side case bushing to larger ID efl Xmas tree bearing.
I can confirm this.. I had to move my old P xmas tree shaft to the EFL gear stack. The EFL shaft (on mine at least) has a larger diameter thingy at the unthreaded end. Everything else about it measures out roughly the same.

On review later the same evening, I found that it would appearantly would have worked to leave the entire xmas tree alone.. I did not find a substantial difference in dimensions, gear spacing, etc. Nor was there any difference in tooth counts between the old p200 tree and the EFL tree. The short story is that I could have (apparently) upgraded to EFL by changing the drive shaft, loose gears, and selector box alone. Please accept this information with a grain of salt.. the motor has yet to run. I build stuff sober, but I only internet after a couple beers. If it fails to run reliably because of a fault in this information, I'll update this post once I am released from the hospital.

fnord,
bc
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V oodoo wrote:
Is there a surefire way to ID what gears are inside from outside the motor? Some detail we can find on the different shift boxes maybe?
As far as I know, the only way to tell if you have a factory built EFL motor is to pull the rear hub. EFL bikes have the hub seal inside the bearing. Everything else puts that seal closer to the hub. Another feller posted some good info on shiftbox ID.. that might be the easiest. You might also make reasonable guesses based on the year; anything built in the 2000s is probably EFL, and I think I have seen some 90s engines with them as well.. watch for the names Lusso or Acrobaleno (I have no idea what they mean), but they usually indicate very late PXnnnE engines. More educated folks than I may chime in here to clarify/correct/flame.
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There were also the "crossover" EFL axles, keeping the outside seal. Most of the ones I have worked with and also have installed on my Vespas are the crossover axles…

Arcobaleno means rainbow. Lusso means luxury and was the German market equivalent of the Arcobaleno…
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UTC quote
I read this post a few times and am still a bit confused, when I get my P200 cases and start moving stuff around will add pictures and have questions I'm sure.

Any reason not to use new drive axle sealed bearing setup? Maybe even add weep hole? Looks like this change was done to keep gearbox oil from dripping or leaking into housing with brake shoes. I know I saw a picture of this on here somewhere.
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SaFiS wrote:
Arcobaleno means rainbow. Lusso means luxury and was the German market equivalent of the Arcobaleno…
Leave it to the Germans to decide rainbows aren't luxurious Razz emoticon
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chandlerman wrote:
Leave it to the Germans to decide rainbows aren't luxurious Razz emoticon
Actually they decided that rainbows ARE luxurious and should be recognized as such.
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sdjohn wrote:
Actually they decided that rainbows ARE luxurious and should be recognized as such.
"Vee haf Vays of makingk kyou *luxuriate*"
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update: two trips around the block up to low 3rd gear, no problems.
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Earlier P125 & 150's will need an adapted spindle/shaft to fit the 15mm ID EFL cush bearing, as well as a 15x42x13mm bearing and 42mm circlip. I was considering a 12x42x13 non-standard bearing and original spindle but couldn't find one from a good brand.
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*Will also require a compatible kickstart gear.

Here's a screenshot from FMP's "PX Old vs Lusso/EFL" video. There are three brands(or branders ) making the conversion spindle. I'm guessing the Worb 5 would be the better, but I'm going to be using the "OEM quality" version from SC, since they're shipping in three days vs three weeks from SIP lately

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/input-shaft-by-worb5_88211000

Should have an apples-to-apples comparison soon, knocking on lots of wood.
Stock gearing vs DRT EFL on two otherwise same bikes(VNX1T's -- one with VMC 177(now case ported), one with BGM 177).
Old Px/Sprint, etc. below
Old Px/Sprint, etc. below
⬆️    About 3 months elapsed    ⬇️
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Ray8 wrote:
*Will also require a compatible kickstart gear.

Here's a screenshot from FMP's "PX Old vs Lusso/EFL" video. There are three brands(or branders ) making the conversion spindle. I'm guessing the Worb 5 would be the better, but I'm going to be using the "OEM quality" version from SC, since they're shipping in three days vs three weeks from SIP lately

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/input-shaft-by-worb5_88211000

Should have an apples-to-apples comparison soon, knocking on lots of wood.
Stock gearing vs DRT EFL on two otherwise same bikes(VNX1T's -- one with VMC 177(now case ported), one with BGM 177).
Ray8 can you share the link for the "OEM quality" version you ended up going with?

I ended up in this thread because I was looking for how to mate a p200 gearbox / tree into an early motor. the 23/65 with p200 gearbox should work ok for a smaller motor on 8's, but an upgear would probably work even a bit better, so I'm not committed yet to that primary ratio. I've got the loose gears already but was looking to understand the whole big bearing / small shaft deal you explained above. Thanks for that!
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That's the one.

I thought SC's "OEM" quality meant Indian Nerd emoticon
This is the one they sent me on the right:
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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Ray8 wrote:
That's the one.

I thought SC's "OEM" quality meant Indian Nerd emoticon
This is the one they sent me on the right:
How did it work out for you? I assume OK since you didn't dog it.
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sdjohn wrote:
I assume OK since you didn't dog it.
It's the cat's meow.
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Also used the FA Italia - SIP sells as well (or did).
Worked well for me too.
Threads are a bit long for my cases - which are VBB circa '61 - but a grinder was all that was needed to shorten them up a bit.
Also had to go to the P or PX spacer that fits under the nut and aligns with the clutch cover.

Ray - are you getting any leaking from the cases where it comes out?
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charlieman22 wrote:
Also used the FA Italia - SIP sells as well (or did).
Worked well for me too.
Threads are a bit long for my cases - which are VBB circa '61 - but a grinder was all that was needed to shorten them up a bit.
Also had to go to the P or PX spacer that fits under the nut and aligns with the clutch cover.

Ray - are you getting any leaking from the cases where it comes out?
No leak, after checking things out a month ago or so ago.

I had to remove the nut to switch to the correct base plate after I first installed it. The blue locktite had splooged its way down the threads enough to imagine it made a kind of seal there.
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UTC quote
I know it's a bit late, but I've put PX-EFL in VBC1 cases, no issue.
Just change the big shaft and end bearings as required.

I've also changed a 3-speed into a 4-speed... again, no issues.
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