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I'm starting to build a P200 type engine with a set of Malossi VR-One crankcases
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Since i'm building a fresh engine, I'm starting off with a 60 stroke crank. Since the cases have reed valve intake, I have a bit of a challenge on choosing a crank. Possibilities are full circle, bell-type or just regular disc valve models. I'm looking for information on what would be a good one or are there some cranks to avoid?

Malossi's own crankshaft - I'm a bit put off by the price of 588eur
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/full-circle-crankshaft-malossi_53161760
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Mazzucchelli full circle - much more affordable at 265eur
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/full-circle-crankshaft-mazzucchelli_45040000
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Mazzucchelli bell - is this weaker than the full circle one?
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/bell-shaped-crankshaft-mazzucchelli_45041000
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Sip Premium rotary - any downsides on running a rotary crank?
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/long-stroke-crankshaft-sip-premium_45021510
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

DRT rotary - DRT products have been always nice in my experience
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/long-stroke-crankshaft-drt-sip-vnox-gt_45047000
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Or should I go straight with 62 stroke Uncle Tom bell? I've read that the cases have to be machined to remove rotary pad, but Malossi cases do not have this to begin with. Could this be a straight fit without machining the cases?
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/bell-shaped-crankshaft-sip-premium-uncle-tom_45022500
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
⚠️ Last edited by FINYoshi on UTC; edited 1 time
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Jet Eye Master
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Good work getting hold of VR one cases. Crank choice depends on which cylinder. Then how the cylinder will be adjusted and set up. And all this depends on how you wish the scooter to ride.
So, how you want the scooter to ride?
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I seem to recall Rob Hodge having a brand new 62mm Uncle Tom crank that he's trying to sell.
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The Uncle Tom 62mm needs the fly side of the crankcase itself machined out 1mm to fit on a regular P200 cases. I have no idea if the Malossi's come pre-sized for it, but I'd be interested to know.

The bell is going to give you the best performance, especially on the lower end, because it allows more crank case volume. The full-circle or flowed are allegedly smoother, but I have that P200 bell crank in my LML 150 and it's much smoother than any of my other motors, especially at high RPM's.

Also affecting this decision is what your other design/performance goals are. Tell what kind of motor you're looking to build, and we can suggest a parts manifest that will give you the best odds of success. What cylinder, carb, pipe, gearing, etc. and and any specific performance thresholds are you looking for?

In the absence of those, any advice that turns out to be accurate will be pure luck.
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I always have an idea of "I'll just spice it up a little" but last time it (again) turned into a 153cc 20.3hp smallframe. Since this will be having more displacement, I'll propably be shooting for something over 25hp. I will not be going to the deep end of BFA's or Quattrini so no excessively long conrod will be needed (yet). I might go with a box exhaust first but am prepared to switch to expansion chamber type too with the short(ish) gearing.

The setup I have been planning:
Gearbox from BGM, maybe with short fourth
PX150 xmas tree z68 with SIP Ultrastrong z22 clutch
Stock PX200 Ducati ignition
Cylinder Malossi Sport or VMC if they get their cylinder out in time

I measured out the diameter of the case halves and it would be superb if someone here would have the dimensions for the Uncle Tom crank or the dimensions from the original cases. The only ones I could find with quick googling were for the Kingwelle cranks which require both sides be machined to 100mm. The dimensions were taken from the case and caliper laid on the cases for taking the photos.

Flywheel side 97,03
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Clutch side 99,94
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
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Anyone have stock 200 cases in hand to compare the measurements ?
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I need to split my 200 cases, but that's a few days out.
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Jack221 wrote:
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/long-stroke-crankshaft-sip-performance_45021630

Scroll down to the bit that says 62mm crankshaft.
Just in case someone is looking later.

Mounting information: Do not forget to modify the smaller half of the engine casings, this requires machining to a internal diameter of 99.5mm.

The 62mm stroke is not suited to the original crankcase. To be more specific, not into the smaller flywheel side of the casings. This requires machining to a internal diameter of 99.5mm.
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So, in summary...VR-One cases...still need to be machined for a 62mm crankshaft. OG P200 cases also need to be machined.

Also worth noting, I build a jig that fits in the bearing seat that I used to machine out a test case half and it worked great. Maybe not quite as pretty as CNC'ed, but for $5 of hardware store parts and a little bit of my time, I'll take it.
⚠️ Last edited by chandlerman on UTC; edited 1 time
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chandlerman wrote:
So, in summary...VR-One cases...62mm crankshaft compatible by default. OG P200 cases need to be machined.

Also worth noting, I build a jig that fits in the bearing seat that I used to machine out a test case half and it worked great. Maybe not quite as pretty as CNC'ed, but for $5 of hardware store parts and a little bit of my time, I'll take it.
Better than I was thinking, free hand with one of these.

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200901506_200901506?cm_mmc=Google-LIA&utm_source=Google_LIA&utm_medium=Power%20Tools%20%3E%20Grinders%20%2B%20Accessories%20%3E%20Flap%20Discs&utm_campaign=Klutch&utm_content=3348053&gclid=CjwKCAjwzeqVBhAoEiwAOrEmzaCNHDORlmIss9ycvx4LC4-7eKU06PEgWJmaHs0lYO-VurXyT7GI2hoCxUkQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
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Oh HELL NO! Razz emoticon

That'd take days and still be lumpy as all hell by the time you got done. I'd probably use something like that to polish it after I finished, though.

It's a couple minutes setup and a couple minutes worth of work. Problem solved

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Jack221 wrote:
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/long-stroke-crankshaft-sip-performance_45021630

Scroll down to the bit that says 62mm crankshaft.
Thanks for pointing to the right info! That crank is also a pretty good option.
Christopher_55934 wrote:
Mounting information: Do not forget to modify the smaller half of the engine casings, this requires machining to a internal diameter of 99.5mm.
Good idea to collect all info in the same thread because links eventually break.
chandlerman wrote:
So, in summary...VR-One cases...62mm crankshaft compatible by default. OG P200 cases need to be machined.
Seems like this is the case.

Good job on the jig! Pretty neat idea and looks like it works well!
⚠️ Last edited by FINYoshi on UTC; edited 1 time
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FINYoshi wrote:
Not if I understood correctly. The flywheel side case diameter is 97,04mm by default on VR-One while 99,5mm is needed.
Doh...I missed the 97mm measurement. I'm going to edit my original post so the search engines don't mislead people.
FINYoshi wrote:
Good job on the jig! Pretty neat idea and looks like it works well!
Thanks!

Yes, the jig works well. I did bases for both the two-part and one-piece crank bearings, so I can do any largeframe motor I wanted to with them. I took a deeper cut than I should have for that test, which let to the one spot where it dug in a little too far, but other than that, it's good.
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Actually I messed up and edited my answer. I looked at the image of clutch side case and was wondering how can the rotary valve work if the pad is machined away on a standard case.
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FINYoshi wrote:
Actually I messed up and edited my answer. I looked at the image of clutch side case and was wondering how can the rotary valve work if the pad is machined away on a standard case.
It's a reed valve case, so the answer is that there's no rotary pad to deal with. Just a big ol' reed block opening
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Yep! The SIP Premium 62mm crankshaft Jack linked to was listed as Disc valve-type crank and due to this I didn't pick it up when looking for cranks.

The product info does not say anything about having to machine the clutch side of the cases so it should fit in with regular P200 clutch side with rotary pad if the flywheel side case is machined.

Kingwelle cranks on the other hand are full circle type and need machining of both cases.
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Decided to go with the Uncle Tom crank with 62mm stroke. Will post pictures and info after I get my hands on the crank.
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Here is my build list, it is mostly complete and might come in handy for the bits you're trying to throw together. I did Rotary over Reed as I ended up doing a 26/26 Pinasco with (oil pump). I didn't end up going Uncle Tom, but liked the port Timing and some other things on the SIP Long Performance Crank for my needs.

SIP Notepad build List: https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/account/notepads/af5b4a4d-9a66-44c2-b150-792d7d385a37

Gick got it together last month, but I still haven't gotten the bike button'd up due to Amervespa, Travel, and work. I will be getting it on the road this weekend and know how it ended up from a gearing standpoint.

Video of first Start: https://www.instagram.com/p/Ce-FsmRl-c_/

Best of luck on your build! It's a fun project.

G
FINYoshi wrote:
Decided to go with the Uncle Tom crank with 62mm stroke. Will post pictures and info after I get my hands on the crank.
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Got my own stock 200 cases so here come the dimensions

Flywheel side diameter is identical on the VR-One cases at 97,08
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Clutch side on pad 98,89
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Clutch side next to pad 99,31
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
⬆️    About 1 year elapsed    ⬇️
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2022 was a rather dark year for me, but now I'm trying to start getting back on some hobbies including this engine build.

Flywheel side case has been machined out to fit the Uncle Tom crankshaft
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Almost started to install the silent bushings but remembered that there should be washers to support the rubbers against the case collar. Also noticed that the pockets for the rubbers were looking rather deep. After some measuring and calculating, I came to the conclusion that there should be roughly 7,5mm spacers on both sides to prevent the engine moving side-to-side.
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

After short google for spacers, I came to realize that my calculations were correct and I had indeed re-invented the wheel:
https://www.scooter-center.com/en/spacer-set-for-silentblock-engine-bgm-pro-w-7.5mm-vespa-px125-200-vespa-rally200-vse1t-2nd-series-used-for-motor-housing-malossi-v-one/vr-one-bgm7952sp
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Good to hear from you…

Looking forward to more builds
⬆️    About 2 months elapsed    ⬇️
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Got couple steps forwards on this build. Malossi Sport MK2 cylinder arrived and I threw it on the block for mock up with Vape.
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Primary rebuilt and attached to the case. Also persuaded the inner type oil seal for the main shaft to it's place
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Pulled in the main shaft with help of washers at first and the switched to rear hub to pull it the rest of the way.
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Got this big ass washer for pulling in the oil seal on clutch side. Made the job a breeze. Added a smear of sealing silicone on the edge of metal body just to be sure.
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Just a socket, washer and a nut on the other side.
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Added a slight tension and then gave little love taps on the big washer. After the seal started to go in, just slight torque on the nut was enough to pull it in the rest of the way.
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

But then onwards to a question: what are the factors that rule what thickness washer has to go under the clutch?
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

I have currently BGM 3,3mm washer in and the clutch looks like this
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
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Prepping the cases for closing
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Some sealing mass and kickstarter from Primavera to wiggle the starter gear into it's place
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

That's one big hole
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Piston and stator side oil seal in
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

62mm stroke demands some compensation
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

2,3mm under, 1mm on top. Squish 1,25mm measured with solder wire.
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Pressure testing the build. Found one irrelevant leak through exhaust stub o-ring, but also one from the intake between reed block and housing.
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Clutch side buttoned up. Went with the 3.3mm washer under the clutch and secured in place with Cosa nut and wavy washer.
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Started to fit in the ignition. Wires needed some heat gun to soften up and get them running nicely.
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Where did the port timing end up?
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I'm guessing, if its a 62mm, 110 rod crank...

looks like 2mm sticking out of the top, with the 1mm gasket...

Usual suspect 210 port depth of 32.85mm for exhaust and 46.5mm for the transfers...

Should end up around:
182 exhaust
126-128 transfer

cant remember what exhaust is going on this...
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108 is right on the money about crank and timings. Transfer timing is tad high to my liking, but will do for now. Only had 1mm and 3mm alu sheet my shelf. If it feels like crap, I'll have to make a 3mm head spacer and ditch 2x 1mm from the foot.

Exhaust will be a polinibox at first, but that will be swapped to a proper one at some point. Haven't really decided which one yet.
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Is that a Sport kit? Timings are low if anything. Could put the whole 3mm on the base and will still pull 4th for touring. If running an expansion the exhaust port will need a Dremel. If not, good to go.
Those VR-One cases really do make all the difference. With the inlet massive, central and forward it's much more like motorcycle performance.
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Yep, a Malossi Sport MK2 210

Raising the cylinder ~3mm would indeed give nice'ish amount of exhaust timing, but at the same time the transfers also go to the moon. I've read that 130 is already on the high side.

The gearing is otherwise stock, but primary is tad longer 24/65 instead of the stock 23/65.[/url]
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FINYoshi wrote:
Yep, a Malossi Sport MK2 210

Raising the cylinder ~3mm would indeed give nice'ish amount of exhaust timing, but at the same time the transfers also go to the moon. I've read that 130 is already on the high side.

The gearing is otherwise stock, but primary is tad longer 24/65 instead of the stock 23/65.[/url]
It really depends what you are building. 130 is near the high side for a tourer but is still low if talking about a race bike. If you want it for long distance then the transfers lower like 126 is better. If running a box, exhaust timing is less critical.
I have a 24/62 straight cut primary in my 221 and it's not too much. I will change it to 25/62 at some point.
OP
@finyoshi avatar
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Addicted
Parmakit Primavera -74, Polini Primavera -68, VR-One 228 150 Touring -59, VMC 177 Bajaj Chetak 125 -95
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Posts: 544
Location: Finland
 
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@finyoshi avatar
Parmakit Primavera -74, Polini Primavera -68, VR-One 228 150 Touring -59, VMC 177 Bajaj Chetak 125 -95
Joined: UTC
Posts: 544
Location: Finland
UTC quote
Goddangit. Took the head off, measured things again with specially cut calipers and half-wrote a message here. Then forgot the whole thing while assembling the engine and later accidentally closed the tab where I had the measured info...

Anyways, slapped on the Vape just to notice that it does not come with a CDI mount. Went looking for one on SIP site and came across a Vesptec mount that uses the threads of the elestart. Also will cover the elestart hole neatly, perfect.
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/bracket-electronic-unit-vesptec-electronic-unit-cdi-vape_16484600

Since I'm too cheap and impatient to order one, I just took measurement of two holes on the block. Printed out the third image of the product page and scaled up until the measurements of the print matched ones from the block. Then it was just matter of fabbing the thing from 3mm alu-sheet and mounting the CDI.

Took a 28mm Keihin from the parts bin, sprayed some brake cleaner and got the first start of the engine.
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Maybe I get this on the road before the winter after all.
@108 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
V range 50s
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2413
 
Ossessionato
@108 avatar
V range 50s
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2413
UTC quote
FINYoshi wrote:
Goddangit. Took the head off, measured things again with specially cut calipers and half-wrote a message here. Then forgot the whole thing while assembling the engine and later accidentally closed the tab where I had the measured info...

Anyways, slapped on the Vape just to notice that it does not come with a CDI mount. Went looking for one on SIP site and came across a Vesptec mount that uses the threads of the elestart. Also will cover the elestart hole neatly, perfect.
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/bracket-electronic-unit-vesptec-electronic-unit-cdi-vape_16484600

Since I'm too cheap and impatient to order one, I just took measurement of two holes on the block. Printed out the third image of the product page and scaled up until the measurements of the print matched ones from the block. Then it was just matter of fabbing the thing from 3mm alu-sheet and mounting the CDI.

Yeah I brought a bunch of 3D printed files from Vesptec to support his cause. The guy is making some great stuff.

Unfortunately for him not product with huge profit margins for his longevity, but well thought out.
⬆️    About 1 year elapsed    ⬇️
@danie avatar
UTC

Hooked
'57 VN2, '70 180 Rally, '80 P150X, '80 P200E, '05 GT200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 357
Location: George, South Africa
 
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@danie avatar
'57 VN2, '70 180 Rally, '80 P150X, '80 P200E, '05 GT200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 357
Location: George, South Africa
UTC quote
How do you split the Malossi casing? It does not use a gasket, but is bonded together with some fancy gasketmaking sealant. ( In case you are wondering why: I must replace the crank).
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