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Molto Verboso
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Addicted
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For money.
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1980 Vespa P200e (sold), 2002 Vespa ET4 (sold), 1949 Harley-Davidson FL
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Because... China. Intellectual property rights mean nothing in China. If it can be stolen and copied, it will be. Given that, the design of the Evolution Sportster engine goes all the way back to the late 1970s and early 1980s. So it's not really cutting edge.
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Junk in, junk out...
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Molto Verboso
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adri wrote:
Junk in, junk out...
What? You don't like the Sportster engine? It hasn't suffered the issues the F engine has over the decades.

I'd laugh harder if they cloned the Milwaukee Eight.
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Atypical Canadian
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No I mean, the stuff from China tends to use the cheapest quality nuts, bolts, and other parts and materials they can get their hands on.

It's part of why many dealerships and indie motorcycle shops won't touch chinese bikes. Sometimes you round a nut just trying to get it off, other times, because the metal used is way too cheap for the torque that the nut needs, it comes from factory pre-rounded like some sort of sick joke.

Junk components in, junk product out...
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Molto Verboso
Dongfang 170cc, CF Moto Fashion 250
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adri wrote:
No I mean, the stuff from China tends to use the cheapest quality nuts, bolts, and other parts and materials they can get their hands on.

It's part of why many dealerships and indie motorcycle shops won't touch chinese bikes. Sometimes you round a nut just trying to get it off, other times, because the metal used is way too cheap for the torque that the nut needs, it comes from factory pre-rounded like some sort of sick joke.

Junk components in, junk product out...
Wow. You have to come in from 2005 Adrian. I just installed the third belt on my CF Moto Helix clone after almost 18,000 miles. You do know that Loncin is building the entire BMW 400cc scooter, that Shineray, in addition to owning SWM, is building the Genuine 400cc bike, that CF Moto is building KTMs for the domestic market, that Znen owns Moto Morini, QJ owns Benelli and is going to build Harleys for the Asian market.

And you worked for Harley. As a Kawasaki and Honda owner I have to ask. How much worse could a Chinese built Harley engine be than the one out of Milwaukee?
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Fortnine did a video on new bike quality based on initial oil change. Granted very small sample size but the results were as expected except that the India manufactured Royal Enfield won by a large margin over the best Japanese manufacturer's.

I am pretty sure they can make quality stuff in China but the Chinese manufactured stuff has a reputation for poor quality...it is made as cheap as possible to sell as cheap as possible and quality suffers.

Lucas electric components for motorcycles and cars were the same thing back in the 70's, the Ducati, Triumph, BSA were well known for poor quality and the jokes are plentiful. I remember 20 years ago reading how Lucas got the contract to supply parts for a commercial airliner and though they would be falling out of the sky but Lucas like the Chinese "can" make quality stuff too but it costs more.

This is copied from the first paragraph..."Over the years, the pushrod-actuated engine has earned kudos for its reliability and simplicity, and the Motor Company keeps the V-twin in the air-cooled Sportster platform to this day."

I think that it why, simple and reliable plus it sounds cool as hell. Maybe we will be seeing some really cool southeast asian choppers pretty soon
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There are things that are cobbled together in China… and there are things that are engineered, manufactured, and assembled extremely well.

China/Chinese doesn't necessarily mean poor - it very much depends on what you're buying and how much you pay.

I get annoyed with various media referring to kit as "Chinese", often which when used - is a way of suggesting a certain cheapness or lack of aspiration to produce goods that are reliable.

But yes, going back of intellectual rights - that does have a lack of respect in many businesses (but not all) in China.

Ps My iPhone (made in China) is the dog's wobbly bits. Can't complain. 👍
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I remember when the characterization was "cheap Japanese imitation of a fine American product". Now Japan has the reputation for quality. Same for Korea.

Much of what we take for granted and use every day is manufactured in whole or part in China.
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If you use China for your manufacturing, China will use your designs for themselves. Many are worried about Chine acquiring Taiwan for the same reasons.
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Atypical Canadian
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mpfrank wrote:
I remember when the characterization was "cheap Japanese imitation of a fine American product". Now Japan has the reputation for quality. Same for Korea.
I think that transition is what sets Japan apart China though. It took a relatively short time for an inferior japanese product to go from being the rule, to being the exception.

In comparison, here are we decades later, and, while there are exceptions, the average chinese two vehicle product being junk is still the rule.

China can absolutely make top-tier, industry-leading stuff. My DJI drone is one of the most phenomenal pieces of tech I've ever owned. Straight outta Shenzhen. But when it comes to the law of averages of Chinese two wheel products... Run, don't walk.
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skids wrote:
Fortnine did a video on new bike quality based on initial oil change. Granted very small sample size but the results were as expected except that the India manufactured Royal Enfield won by a large margin over the best Japanese manufacturer's.
The one where they sent in oil samples to be tested? That's not a measure of new bike quality, or even long term engine quality, it's a measure of new engine wear-in

Scotty Kilmer did some checks on how a 100-ish thousand mile Genesis (Hyundai) motor held up vs a high mileage (I think 200k mile) comparable Toyota motor held up and while initially they were initially similar at the start of their lives, by the end the high mileage Toyota was still running 98-99% to spec vs the Genesis was still running fine, but nowhere near as smoothly and to spec as it used to. If you're into cars and vehicle testing it's a good episode to look up and see the difference in the numbers.
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Molto Verboso
Dongfang 170cc, CF Moto Fashion 250
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Molto Verboso
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adri wrote:
I think that transition is what sets Japan apart China though. It took a relatively short time for an inferior japanese product to go from being the rule, to being the exception.

In comparison, here are we decades later, and, while there are exceptions, the average chinese two vehicle product being junk is still the rule.
I love when people rewrite history. Let's peg 1960 as the year the Japanese hit the shores of the US bigtime. I owned a 1968 Yamaha (Pre RD 350). I tried to get ignition points for it in 1973. Guess what? The dealer said there were none from Yamaha. My 1974 Kawasaki 500 was a maintenance attention getter. Every six months I had to go over every nut and bolt to retighten them and decoke the baffles annually. Yes my 1979 Kawasaki was a car by comparison but that was twenty years after the Japanese landed.

Early Honda 750s threw their chains through their cases, hence endless chains came into being. My buddy's 1975 RD 350 ran out of breath at 10,000 miles. We took his cylinders into Grumman, used an expensive interior micrometer on it and the cylinders were like hourglasses. Big clearances at both TDC and BDC. I could go on about clear coated aluminum cases and other cheap outs by the Japanese. How about the gear box woes Yamaha has had in all their bikes since the Virago and FJ 1100?

Everybody needs time to adapt to the markets they sell in. The two wheeled Chinese things are here since, What, 2005? I know a young person like you Adrian is all about instant gratification but it doesn't work that way.

You're of British descent, right? How about those Brit bikes? Royal Enfield started in 1901. Want to go cross country on a 1966 Triumph Bonneville. Without a Boyer Ignition, BTW.
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kz1000ST wrote:
Everybody needs time to adapt to the markets they sell in. The two wheeled Chinese things are here since, What, 2005? I know a young person like you Adrian is all about instant gratification but it doesn't work that way.

You're of British descent, right? How about those Brit bikes? Royal Enfield started in 1901. Want to go cross country on a 1966 Triumph Bonneville. Without a Boyer Ignition, BTW.
I'm neither young, nor of british descent, nor do I understand the private messages you sent me either, but it's starting to get uncomfortable...
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adri wrote:
The one where they sent in oil samples to be tested? That's not a measure of new bike quality, or even long term engine quality, it's a measure of new engine wear-in

Scotty Kilmer did some checks on how a 100-ish thousand mile Genesis (Hyundai) motor held up vs a high mileage (I think 200k mile) comparable Toyota motor held up and while initially they were initially similar at the start of their lives, by the end the high mileage Toyota was still running 98-99% to spec vs the Genesis was still running fine, but nowhere near as smoothly and to spec as it used to. If you're into cars and vehicle testing it's a good episode to look up and see the difference in the numbers.
Yeah that's the one. I know it doesn't mean much, small sample size and nothing over time to see how they last but I also remember when Japanese products had a reputation for poor quality and then they started to do something about it.

I inherited a 1969 Toyota Corona from my next door neighbor who got it from an old lady she was taking care of. She then lent it to her brother and he crashed it, actually rolled it ass over teakettle not sideways. It was a 1900 cc manual 4 speed. I didn't care it was dented up it was a beater but when I attempted to change the oil and the oil drain plug was welded on I decided to see how much it would take before it died.

I started by taking it off road and jumping it, and of course crashing it into stuff on purpose just to see how it held up. It's not an accident if you do it on purpose. I also learned how to drive a 4 wheeled vehicle on two wheels in this car.

It was really incredible how tough and well built it was. Eventually it was unrecognizable as to the make and model so I got BMW insignia for it so everybody would think I thrashed an expensive car. I had cleared out 3 counties worth of auto wreckers for the radiator, the only thing I could destroy so finally I got a radiator from an abandoned chevy 1.5 ton truck in my neighborhood and attached it with baling wire to the front as it wouldn't fit in the engine compartment. I figured with a big enough radiator I could eliminate the fan altogether and it never overheated.

Eventually I got so many fix it tickets I had to sell it and go to court with proof to get out of fixing it and a friend continued to drive the thing for another year or so until he got a handful of tickets. People would literally stop on the sidewalks and grab the person next to them and point as we drove by, got more attention than a Lambo...all of my friends referred to it as "the war car" because it looked like it had been through a couple wars. Perfect for early 80's southern california punk scene! California Uber Alles!

I think this is what Royal Enfield is attempting with the motorcycles they produce in India and think that the run in oil change numbers are indicative although not concrete, time will tell but I am tempted to get a Royal Enfield and see how it does.
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Awesome. I just wanna know which two of four wheels you were on

Picturing a Corolla version of Ricky's car from Trailer Park Boys.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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Molto Verboso
Dongfang 170cc, CF Moto Fashion 250
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adri wrote:
I'm neither young, nor of british descent, nor do I understand the private messages you sent me either, but it's starting to get uncomfortable...
I apologize. I guess I got sensitive to your harsh opinions of the scooters I own. You are the owner of the You Motorcycle blog, are you not?
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adri wrote:
Awesome. I just wanna know which two of four wheels you were on

Picturing a Corolla version of Ricky's car from Trailer Park Boys.
Passenger side of course! I remember my friend riding shotgun looking out the window for a minute at the pavement right up in his face then turns to face me and says " hey next time can I be on the high side?"

And it wasn't a Corolla, it was a rear wheel drive Corona just like the virus!
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Atypical Canadian
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kz1000ST wrote:
I apologize. I guess I got sensitive to your harsh opinions of the scooters I own. You are the owner of the You Motorcycle blog, are you not?
Yes, that's my website, and I stand by what I said... Still older than Jesus and without a drop of UK blood in me, but more to the point: So what? Who cares??

In a review of my own, absolute favorite motorcycle, I listed 19 things absolutely wrong with it, to just 21 things right. I am critical of everyone's motorcycle. That's my job.

But most importantly: You shouldn't care. Your bikes aren't perfect, my bikes aren't perfect. So what? Who cares? That's not news and it's not worth getting yourself upset about.
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Atypical Canadian
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skids wrote:
Passenger side of course! I remember my friend riding shotgun looking out the window for a minute at the pavement right up in his face then turns to face me and says " hey next time can I be on the high side?"

And it wasn't a Corolla, it was a rear wheel drive Corona just like the virus!
Ooops!
If you're into vehicle history, I really enjoyed this video:
At around 11:40 they talk about your Corona
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I seldom open unknown web links (a thing to consider for all from cypersecurity viewpoint, just saying...), but I got curious and read about this engine clone.

Many sources seem to think HD sold a license for it legally, similarly as Japanese manufacturers tend to do to their outdated models...no confirmation for this, but would make sense.

Apparently the engine is re-engineered in Italy, so the SWM guys may have had their hands on it.

Japanese cars and bikes - it was somewhere in the ~mid 80's when the Japanese cars got their Mojo. Before this, they didn't last in our harsh winter, just rusted away like East European cars. The were cheap and often a bit odd, but not long termers.

Bikes got there mayby just a tad later...I do remember how the bits and pieces in some early 80's Honda models were just scrap, although already then, even earlier, the assemply specs were amazing with Honda bikes - as long as you didn't take anything into parts they were impeccable.
This was a dream car for younger folks here in the 70's. Toyota Celica, a kind of predecessor for Supra. Many good samples have unfortunately rusted away now already long time ago.
This was a dream car for younger folks here in the 70's. Toyota Celica, a kind of predecessor for Supra. Many good samples have unfortunately rusted away now already long time ago.
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Thanks Adri really cool video. I love history! I ended up watching a few video's of Scotty's and it is interesting that not all of the Japanese products get the same high marks for quality that the toyota does.

Scotty is an interesting character for sure but I can only take so much of him. Like (rye) whisky I love it but only a little bit at a time!
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Atypical Canadian
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No problem, I enjoyed that one as well, and yes... Scotty can be.... *waves hands excessively* a lot
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