Modern Vespa

Over the last couple of months, I have been converting (and restoring) a 50 special from gas to electric.
I used the kit from Retrospective Scooters. They are based in the UK. I'm here in Southern California.

I made a short video overview of the process that I posted to YouTube.

Here's the link: Apologies for the audio... still trying to learn how to mix audio & video!

Here's a quick spec overview:
-50 mph top range
-30 miles per charge (YIKES)
-64V 24 ah battery

What do you think? Is it worth converting our scooters? By the way, this is not my scooter. I helped a friend convert it.

While it's really fun to drive and turns a lot of heads, does the fun justify the $$?

Not cheap to do by the way.
What do you guys think?

P.S. I'll make a video of the installation process soon. There's a second EV conversion kit sitting in a box and an additional small frame that is currently being painted...
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very interesting, but the 30 mile range is a big limiting factor though and the cost of the kit is not for the fainthearted either, shame

Agreed on the range and price!

I believe that a lot of the cost is due to the convenience of the kit.

Drop the motor and bolt in the electric motor/swingarm. Plug in battery. Splice in pos/neg wires to 12 V from motor controller. DONE!

I did some searching around online with the part numbers on the motor, Controller, and misc parts. Looks like you could recreate this kit yourself for about 2k USD. That is assuming that you have some level of metal fabrication skills and a little experience in soldering Lithium Ion batteries.

So, no small task! BUT if it saves you ~3k or 4k then definitely worth a try (yes, the kits are that expensive..)

On the other hand... you can find a finely rebuilt OG vespa engine for 1k or less...

Ahh I think the answer is to stay gas-powered until the cost of EV conversions drops DRASTICALLY

Not sure if you've seen this, but worth a read.

https://modernvespa.com/forum/topic164774

Thanks for shooting and sharing the video!

I've thought about doing an electric conversion, but I'd probably go more the DIY route like JVB did for a number of reasons (I converted a boat to electric a few years ago, so it wouldn't be my first effort). I would probably also go with a largeframe for more battery space, but I love what you've done and am looking forward to more thoughts on the kit. It seems like it could be a one-day conversion for an experience mechanic.

I'm looking forward to the installation video. Don't leave us hanging.

I wouldn't do it. For the money you can get faster and further with electric bicycles. Which also doesn't mandate a license and insurance or even helmets.

BUT.... Vespas have *panache*

"BUT.... Vespas have *panache*"
I thought that was two stroke oil.

Oh I forgot registration fees too.

Lol point taken. Especially in Cali

Getting back on topic...

Cost has been probably the #1 complaint about that kit-based approach to a conversion since Day One. Hub motors have gotten cheap and battery prices have fallen, but low volume complex fabrication is still expensive due to the labor, whether the engineering design work, time spent programming a CNC, or manually machining parts.

I do think the hub motor approach is the future of the bulk these projects, but unless you can weld a mounting bracket and do a moderate amount of electrical engineering, you're going to be limited to buying a kit. It'll be interesting to see how that market evolves. Will it remain "all-in-one," or will options to buy just a motor mount, then fill in your own motor, batteries, controller, etc. start to emerge? I certainly hope they do, because that will lead to a healthier market in the long run.

And personally, I'm all in favor of electrifying vintage scooters, even if my personal style is building stupid-fast motors and trying to kill myself riding them. Gasoline engines have a limited future, and the only reason two strokes haven't been outlawed entirely, I suspect, is that they're now rare enough that we just get overlooked when people are thinking about air pollution.

Anyone making (and, more importantly, buying & using) these kits is helping us all out in the long run.

Keep up the good work, Bernietime

I know I would think more about an electric conversion for my old all state if I could get a swing arm ready to mount up a hub motor.

Didn't JVB share the plans for his swingarm? I recall thinking it wouldn't be hard to fabricate since he did the design work, and we know it worked, too.

I should go re-read his thread.

It's too bad Bernietime sold his Ape's. They'd be awesome for electrification since you could easily put all the batteries you could afford under the bed.

At 50, I probably wouldn't get run over but a 30mile range is dicey. I could barely get to work and back off that.

Add 5-10mph and double the range and I'd be down to clown off that.

But the price? I could buy a whole other bike at that. Hopefully that'll adjust a tad. I get that's a whole plug n' play kit, but still that's some serious coin for not a whole bunch of payoff.

My .02- make that 100 miles and it's a winner. I'll bet you could manage the power curve and squeeze some more miles out as well.. also, if you can charge with 110v outlet you can charge at your destination. Makes it more like 60 miles for a round tripper

Cost is mostly low volume kit, they list two entire scooters for cost of conversion kit.

The battery pack included in kit is removable for convenience of charging. I bet you could extend that range with a custom fit pack that would be harder to remove and would have to be charged in scooter.

The removable pack would be convenient and could easily be charged at destination so that's nice.

I was considering the kit for my 50 Special. I couldn't make the cost of conversion work for me. The 30 mile range and 50mph top speed is ok for a London bike as it's mostly commuting and really low speed limits here which the kit probably designed for.

In the end rebuilding a petrol engine and getting a test for NoX so I don't have to pay the emissions charges every day was much cheaper. I just decided I like blue smoke too much.

This is 100% the counter-argument against this kit. JVB was getting over 60 MPH top speed, but only like 40-ish miles of range per charge. He could have added more battery, though, which could potentially have doubled range, maybe more with newer battery tech.

The ability to pick different options to meet each of these requirements will allow balancing price, performance, and range, either through de facto standardization of the different component interfaces as well as splitting out the low-value-add parts like the custom brackets.

I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes in the next couple years.

The batteries diminish too, the new piaggio one electric has similar range. It's fairly decent looking and got the piaggio style to it. There are two versions , one does 28mph and the other about 45mph. Piaggio claim that after 800 charges battery range is decreased by 30%. The top range one is £2500 including government subsidy. So quite frankly no I wouldn't convert a Vespa or lambretta to electric at that cost and massive faffing about. I'd just buy a piaggio one. Fine for buzzing local. The great thing about the piaggio one is you can take battery out to charge indoors so no issue with running power leads out from house. One thing that worries me about electric is the silence . Everybody can hear the noise of a Vespa, especially pedestrians; it has to be an issue of safety.


Piaggio one


Last edited by ferriswolf on Fri, 15 Jul 2022 20:34:06 +0000; edited 1 time

Anybody have specs on the battery pack? I can do some research on custom battery packs. (Larger)

there was a big discussion over in general about the degradation of batteries over lifetime of the vehicle. interesting takes, more interesting hot taeks!

but if after 2.5 years, lets say, I have to replace my battery pack for 5~8? nah man.

also the piaggio one looks butt. I'd *consider* any of the vespa line, but I know the price point is going to be absurd. and resale is gonna be dog-shit.

and seconded on the noise issue. we almost get creamed regularly on noise makers, but running silent? I'll pass on that for now.

Battery lifespan is basically irrelevant to this conversation. You're never going to wear out the battery unless you basically deliberately try to kill it, and maybe not even then if the Battery Management System (BMS) is well-engineered, which I assume it would be on Piaggio's flagship intro to the market.

Modern rechargeable batteries, even cheap ones like LiFePO4's, are typically rated for 5,000 charging cycles at 80% depth of discharge (that is, you only run them down 80% of total capacity). So I think that Piaggio number is either low or the result of them using too small a battery, requiring it to regularly run down more than a larger pack would.

Looking at what little I could find in the way of spec's, they say it's a 1.2KWh battery that weighs 10 KG. That's probably a 20Ah 48V battery, if I had to guess. Not much juice, and about the footprint of a car battery, only lighter because it's not some sort of lead-acid/AGM/etc variant.

Looking at the brochureware site, Piaggio claim the 1+ has a range of 100km, so I'm going to work with that.

Even taking their 800 charge number and 100km/62 miles to a charge, that's still 49,600 miles of battery life. Assuming linear degradation of the battery over its life, you wind up with an ending range of 43 miles and a lifespan of 42160 miles. And that battery isn't dead, it's just degraded.

So you'd need to ride almost 1,000 miles per month, year-round, to run that battery down that far in four years. If you're commuting full time, that's about 20 days per month, so that'd be 25 miles each way, but by the end of those four years, you'd only be able to manage a 20 mile-each-way commute. Still a long-ass way on an electric scooter for most people, I'd think.

Anyways...there's the math...if you commute on it full time 20 miles each way for four years, you'd hit the rated performance limits of the battery. Anything less, it's much ado about nothing.

granted, I'm rather ignorant on battery side of things but I was basing it off experience with battery powered tools and that 800 threshold.

I have to replace makita batteries every 2~3 years and I'm pretty diligent about keeping them up and not running them ALL the way down.

but on a scoot with that power and range, it would mean plugging it in at night, plugging it in at work, and then plugging it in when I got home all while sussing out the where to be plugging it in at.

I like the idea, but I think it just needs a few more years to get fully there.

but I'm old school. when new cars do the auto shut off at stops I freak out thinking that it's stalled.

I'll be over here: ohhh hey! cool old Lambretta! is that hybrid? nah, Suzuki 190, last of the two strokes mate. she'll run till hell won't have it.

Yeah, I don't think the tech is quite there yet for the American use case, but they tech is *never* "quite there" when it first starts coming out. You have to get to some level of scale before the cost of the engineering effort to really move the needle can be justified.

Yeah, we have a hybrid Ford Escape at work, got a call it was broken and wouldn't start. Turned key on put it in gear and drove away, ran fine. Gas motor doesn't start right away, like a hybrid golf cart.

FMP got to ride an electric vintage bike that kept the manual transmission. This is what I want to do for an electric conversion. Ditch the noise, smoke, etc., but keep the shifty-ness of it.

I was thinking to go directly from the motor's shaft to the clutch and avoid the belt, but fundamentally, it's the same idea, just slightly different packaging. He seems to be up-gearing the output, though, so his approach might be the winner.

Cost was (in 2020) "about two BFA 306's"

Apologies for the late response!

Battery:
The battery supplied by the retrospective scooter is: 18s 64v 26ah
Calculations serve that this is a 1664 Wh pack.
18s and 10p configuartino of the cells.
This breaks down to be 180 individual Lithium-ion cells.

Now, I have seen these cells on various websites for around 1 to 2 dollars per cell if you buy them in bulk. Bulk in this case is around 1000 or more cells.
Throw in a $50 battery management system and some decent soldering skills and you've got yourself an additional battery pack for around $250. Not bad! Especially since you could double the cells and get closer to 60 miles of range and be in the ~$400 range.

I have attached a pic of the kit as received from retrospective so you guys can get an idea of the size and shape of everything.

Here's something else to think about. As I was working on this kit., I read some of the parts #s and I realized that a lot of this stuff can be bought individually online. Mostly from China. Thanks also for the old p200 conversion post from last year that was linked!
I received a quote from QS motors for a 10-inch hub motor and controller for around $800.

So, I reckon with about $2k and some fabrication skills, you can definitely make this kit yourself.

So, at the end of the day, the retrospective kit has a convenient cost. But with that added cost comes customer service AND a guarantee that it will work and fit. For the less mechanically/DIY-minded, that is definitely worth it.

I've got a pretty rough p200 sitting around and I might try to make a kit for it myself. I'll try to stick to a $2k budget to see if this is truly accessible for the average garage mechanic like myself (with a garage mechanic budget!).

Finally, the owner of Tiffany the electric Vespa just sent me a pic of it on its way to be inspected by CHP and the DMV. I'll let you all know if it passes and if it is awarded the coveted "EV" title here in CA. Worst-case scenario if it fails, I'll help him put back in the old engine and just register it as stock...

I would say you're paying for engineering such as wiring, swing arm and convenience. A lot of people can do a bolt on. Not everyone can program a controller, weld and wire up a motor.

Yes, also I was just informed yesterday that retrospective scooters offers a one-year, zero questions guarantee of their product.
That makes the kit even more worth it for those that want a plug-and-play option.

PLUS, at the CHP inspection yesterday, we were asked for the company that made the kit and documentation. Seems like we may not have been able to pass as road worthy if it was a DIY kit. So, that's another huge plus of the kit.

This scooter now has an EV title which will save you a couple of bucks each year on registration

That only matters if you live in place that believes in the concept of the Regulatory State.

Here in Tennessee, I could hand them a Bill of Sale for a totally different vehicle written in crayon and they'd give me a title and registration in about ten minutes. It's not necessarily a Good Thing (you should see some of the things that pass as vehicles around here), but it sure does make the paperwork easy.

Minnesota is somewhere in between, you at least have to prove it's not stolen parts. Or be able to use Microsoft word and make a nice receipt from a defunct company they can't contact. Then put up a bond for a few years in case owner wants it back.

Ahh, perhaps it's the strict CA regulations that help me from buying way too many Vespas. I can think of 8 Vespas off the top of my head nearby that aren't worth even thinking about due to the headache (and wallet ache) that it would cause to try to get them registered here...

Quick Question: At what price point would a Plug and Play EV conversion kit for a vintage Vespa be worth it to you personally? No wrong answers here, just opinions!

Depends on kit specifications 60MPH? 50 mile range?

Yeah!

Let's say a plug and play EV kit with:

60 MPH top speed
50 miles range
3 hour charge time

Thanks, @Bernietime, for posting the video of this conversion. I've restored many Suzuki 2-stroke motorcycles from the '60's but have never owned a Scooter. I just bought the chassis and body parts of a '62 Vespa VBB1 and the electric conversion kit from Retrospective. Their large frame kit can come with a 72v 35ah battery that presumably has a range of 40 miles and top speed of 60+mph. You can add another battery to double the range. I love the idea of a vintage style Vespa that's electric and am planning on this being my in-town transport. Cost of the kit is the real issue. The conversion kit with one 72v battery is essentially $5k. If it was closer to $3k this would have been a much easier decision. My kit arrives in 6-8 weeks. I'll tell you what I think after I've installed it.

I knew i wasn't the only one assembling scoots in the living room

Small Update!

I've been working on putting my own kit together. Everything is custom made and plasma cut to ensure maximum strength and aesthetic curb appeal.

I designed the swingarms using CAD and sent them off to be cut/bent. They arrive tomorrow and I will finish fabricating the swingarm. A couple renders are attached for what they will look like.

Green "swingarm" is an old seat I cut up just to hold it in place. Works fine for a bench top but not road worthy! Ha!

I made by kit run at 52V. It should get better milage than the retrospective kit but the top speed may suffer? Not sure yet. I will have to do a road test.

Here's some specs:
2kW motor
3kW controller
52V battery (currently 20AH but can double or tripple easily)
52 Contactor
LED Headlight - Made for harleys but fit!
Wireless relay buttons to turn on the contractor


I have everything assembled on my bench top and it's suprisingly easy. Plug and play!

I am having a ton of fun. I think it would be totally feasibly to produce these for around 2-2.5k (USD). Would anyone be interested in one of these?

Let me know! I am going to keep posting updates as they come along. Cheers!

This thread is great! Thanks for sharing.

Can't wait to see your kit!

I don't understand why the Retrospective kits, and even the Piaggio-designed modern ones are so limited with speed. Seems like the electric motors are so small in size that you could make one that's way faster than a stock 200.

I wonder if they did this to make them safer?

On a 50 Special, it's probably faster though.

probably a tradeoff vs range, maybe battery life as well

My take- above a certain voltage (60V) things in automotive get classified as 'high voltage' which drives specific safety related design and software for these systems. That may be one obstacle to go to higher voltages for OEM's that need to certify their products.

The connection between voltage and speed- from what I've seen in these hub mounted motors, they are designed such that you need >60V for getting power at higher speeds.

You can make high power lower voltage motors, but the currents go up and it probably becomes challenging to get the heat out within the constraints here- fitting the motor within the hub, no liquid cooling for the motor or controller, etc.

Really interesting to watch all this evolve!

Everything did above, but the economics are that it comes down to battery cost/capacity (range) and expected use cases. Why build for high speeds when the competition is 49cc scoots?

A KW is basically 2 1/8 HP, which means that a 2KW hub motor is pretty close to a plain 49cc. Cost also starts going up fast at that point, plus the batteries' ability to push juice, which again increases cost.

And you can run an 8KW motor at 48V. It's what I have in my boat. Any bigger and you're jumping to 96V, though, and cost starts to go up faster than performance.