Sun Jul 17, 2022 9:53 am

Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
 
Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Sun Jul 17, 2022 9:53 am linkquote
My P200 has developed a clicking sound when I roll it forward or back. Sounds like its coming from the back. Happens once on wheel rotation (pretty sure) I couldn't get it to reproduce when it was lifted on a jack so had someone else push it while I looked/ listened and it is definitely coming from the rear, maybe inside the case. Feels like it may be unsafe....
could it be a flat bearing? any Ideas?
I noticed it few rides ago.
Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:53 am

Hooked
'58 VBA '79CT90
Joined: 25 Dec 2019
Posts: 141
Location: Chico CA
 
Hooked
'58 VBA '79CT90
Joined: 25 Dec 2019
Posts: 141
Location: Chico CA
Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:53 am linkquote
Shift cables need adjustment. Mine was doing that. Try rotating the grip back and forth a bit while pushing in neutral and see if it goes away.
Sun Jul 17, 2022 12:01 pm

Ossessionato
'70 Super 150, Aprilia SR MT 125, Moto Guzzi Bellagio
Joined: 22 Nov 2011
Posts: 2355
Location: Sydney, Australia
 
Ossessionato
'70 Super 150, Aprilia SR MT 125, Moto Guzzi Bellagio
Joined: 22 Nov 2011
Posts: 2355
Location: Sydney, Australia
Sun Jul 17, 2022 12:01 pm linkquote
Did you have a good look at your rear tyre? Could be something stuck in there. Pebble in the tread?
Sun Jul 17, 2022 12:58 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 5149
Location: Tega Cay, SC
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 5149
Location: Tega Cay, SC
Sun Jul 17, 2022 12:58 pm linkquote
Maybe the brake or clutch cable it hitting something. Get it on the stand, lift it enough to spin the wheel. You will find the problem.
Sun Jul 17, 2022 3:39 pm

Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
 
Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Sun Jul 17, 2022 3:39 pm linkquote
clipped the clutch cable, on the stand it doesn't have the problem. No pebble in the thread. The noise is coming from inside the hub, gonna take off the tire and see whats what
Sun Jul 17, 2022 3:41 pm

Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
 
Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Sun Jul 17, 2022 3:41 pm linkquote
Quote:
Grumpnut, Shift cables need adjustment
tell me more, don't get how those are related
Sun Jul 17, 2022 3:53 pm

Hooked
'58 VBA '79CT90
Joined: 25 Dec 2019
Posts: 141
Location: Chico CA
 
Hooked
'58 VBA '79CT90
Joined: 25 Dec 2019
Posts: 141
Location: Chico CA
Sun Jul 17, 2022 3:53 pm linkquote
The click is from the cruciform hitting the gears instead of being in the space between.
Sun Jul 17, 2022 4:17 pm

Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
 
Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Sun Jul 17, 2022 4:17 pm linkquote
Ahh makes sense I will try the cables then. Tighter?
Sun Jul 17, 2022 6:42 pm

Hooked
'58 VBA '79CT90
Joined: 25 Dec 2019
Posts: 141
Location: Chico CA
 
Hooked
'58 VBA '79CT90
Joined: 25 Dec 2019
Posts: 141
Location: Chico CA
Sun Jul 17, 2022 6:42 pm linkquote
The tension between the two is off balance. You'll figure it out.
Sun Jul 17, 2022 7:29 pm

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 6529
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 6529
Location: Nashville
Sun Jul 17, 2022 7:29 pm linkquote
This doesn't sound like cable slop to me. Does it also have trouble staying in gear?

You may need a new shift box. That's an easy fix since you don't have to split the cases. If it's the cruciform and/or gear spacing, you're splitting cases.
Mon Jul 18, 2022 5:47 am

Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
 
Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Mon Jul 18, 2022 5:47 am linkquote
It stays in gear fine. I think the previous owner must have replaced the cross because I am at 19k mikes and no issues with it staying in gear. haven't adjusted the cables yet, will try today I did put a new clutch in, an sip ultra strong about 4 months ago that has been a good upgrade.
Quote:
Chandlerman tell me more about the shift box?
Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:19 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 6529
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 6529
Location: Nashville
Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:19 am linkquote
When the shifter/selector box gets worn (there are multiple ways this can happen, including the slots of the batwing wearing down and the pin that ties the batwing to the shifter arm wearing and developing play.

When that happens, the cruciform develops play as well, which can lead to it being misaligned to the gear stack, hence clicking.

Let's talk about that clutch change, too. If the thrust washer/spacer is too thin, that can also cause clicking when you roll it.
Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:29 am

Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
 
Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:29 am linkquote
ahh this sounds interesting, What is the thrust washer/ spacer and is it the one that goes under the nut? The original clutch was standard, so the castle nut etc was different from the sip one which had a different nut and no washer that came with it.
Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:47 am

Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
 
Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:47 am linkquote
Is it inside the clutch (32)?

I bought the clutch from SIP already assembled so I am hoping the thrust washer is in there.....my understanding is that its a COSA 2 style clutch



Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:48 am

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6526
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6526
Location: So Cal
Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:48 am linkquote
Grumpnut wrote:
The click is from the cruciform hitting the gears instead of being in the space between.
This is correct.

What it almost always indicates is either the cruciform is worn and/or the gears need shimming.

First rule out slop in the neutral notch of the batwing.
Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:36 pm

Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
 
Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:36 pm linkquote
Batwing was good. And I adjusted the shifter cables (tighter) and lo and behold the clicking went away! Hopefully it stays good but I can always adjust the cables more
Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:39 pm

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 6529
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 6529
Location: Nashville
Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:39 pm linkquote
Cdevillasante wrote:
Batwing was good. And I adjusted the shifter cables (tighter) and lo and behold the clicking went away! Hopefully it stays good but I can always adjust the cables more
If it was the cruciform hitting the gears, which it seems like it was, you're just buying time until you need to split the cases.

If you keep avoiding it, you'll wind up needing to replace the gears, too, which cost a heck of a lot more than a cruciform.
Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:56 pm

Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
 
Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:56 pm linkquote
I was thinking it may be good to get in there and replace the cruciform as it probably has 19k miles.
Mon Jul 18, 2022 7:07 pm

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 6529
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 6529
Location: Nashville
Mon Jul 18, 2022 7:07 pm linkquote
Cdevillasante wrote:
I was thinking it may be good to get in there and replace the cruciform as it probably has 19k miles.
Good call

Be sure to check the gear play and make sure you don't need a thicker shim while you're at it. It's annoying because you have to crack the cases, then order, but still the right thing to do.
Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:46 pm

Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
 
Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:46 pm linkquote
Yea I feel good about it and I have extra shims from when I did the Rally's gear stack
Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:02 am

Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 3052
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 3052
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:02 am linkquote
Unless, I have my theory wrong, cables are there to move you from notch to notch in batwing as people call it. That wing notch should be what's holding placement for gears.

Depending on which way you moved it, could you change gaskets under shift box to better center cross?

Last edited by Christopher_55934 on Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:20 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 6529
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 6529
Location: Nashville
Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:20 am linkquote
Christopher_55934 wrote:
Unless, I have my theory wrong, cables are there to move you from notch to notch in batwing as people call it. That wing notch should be what holding placement for gears.

Depending on which way you moved it, could you change gaskets under shift box to better center cross?
You're correct, but that still won't fix a worn cruciform, selector box, or gears. That'll only fix a box that doesn't align with the gears for whatever reason (e.g. out of spec, etc.)
Sun Jul 31, 2022 8:45 am

Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
 
Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Sun Jul 31, 2022 8:45 am linkquote
I saw a post a while back about replacing the cruciform in frame, but of course now I can't find it…….should I take the engine out and put it on the stand or just drop it and do it in frame? Do I even have to drop it to do it in frame?
Sun Jul 31, 2022 10:48 am

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6526
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6526
Location: So Cal
Sun Jul 31, 2022 10:48 am linkquote
You don't have to take the engine out to replace the cruciform. You don't even have to drop it or remove the cylinder. You can split the case by removing the cylinder studs on the flywheel side, disconnecting the exhaust, and lifting the cylinder.



Sun Jul 31, 2022 2:42 pm

Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
 
Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Sun Jul 31, 2022 2:42 pm linkquote
Thanks! hey great color!
⬆️    About 1 month elapsed between posts    ⬇️
Mon Sep 12, 2022 4:37 pm

Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
 
Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Mon Sep 12, 2022 4:37 pm linkquote
SoCalGuy wrote:
You don't have to take the engine out to replace the cruciform. You don't even have to drop it or remove the cylinder. You can split the case by removing the cylinder studs on the flywheel side, disconnecting the exhaust, and lifting the cylinder.
Well I'm going forward and doing it in frame! Question: am I right in thinking I do not have to disconnect the stator, just dismount it to losses the case bolts?

Sorry about the pics no matter what I do they come out upside down, even flipped them in my library!

So I don't need to drop the engine?





Mon Sep 12, 2022 6:23 pm

Molto Verboso
Joined: 29 Nov 2020
Posts: 1036
Location: Los Angeles
 
Molto Verboso
Joined: 29 Nov 2020
Posts: 1036
Location: Los Angeles
Mon Sep 12, 2022 6:23 pm linkquote
Cdevillasante wrote:
Question: am I right in thinking I do not have to disconnect the stator, just dismount it to losses the case bolts?
You don't have to disconnect the stator. A bit more cumbersome maybe, but it can be left flopping there.
Wed Sep 14, 2022 4:36 pm

Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
 
Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Wed Sep 14, 2022 4:36 pm linkquote
Case is split! In frame





Thu Sep 15, 2022 8:57 am

Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
 
Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Thu Sep 15, 2022 8:57 am linkquote
So now that I am at this point my game plan is to:

check the gear stack for movement
remove circlip and gears, keeping them exactly as they were ordered
replace old cruciform with new
replace, gears and circlip
check for movement or too much space with a feeler gauge and add spacer if necessary

does this sound reasonable? did I miss anything?
Thu Sep 15, 2022 2:40 pm

Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
 
Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Thu Sep 15, 2022 2:40 pm linkquote
Got it!



Thu Sep 15, 2022 2:44 pm

Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 11825
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
 
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 11825
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Thu Sep 15, 2022 2:44 pm linkquote
that's ready for replacement. how do the gears look?
Thu Sep 15, 2022 2:52 pm

Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 2005 70cc Yamaha Vino
Joined: 23 Aug 2020
Posts: 1101
Location: Philadelphia
 
Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 2005 70cc Yamaha Vino
Joined: 23 Aug 2020
Posts: 1101
Location: Philadelphia
Thu Sep 15, 2022 2:52 pm linkquote
Question. I may have no idea what I'm talking about but did you loosen all the cylinder studs and removed 2. Or just loosened those 2 when you removed them?

I ask cause wouldn't not loosening all four run you the risk of warping the cylinder? Kinda how you gotta cross tighten the nuts so you don't warp it, in this case 2 would be torqued fully and 2 not at all. Seems like it'd warp in that setting no?
Thu Sep 15, 2022 3:25 pm

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6526
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6526
Location: So Cal
Thu Sep 15, 2022 3:25 pm linkquote
FridayMatinee wrote:
Question. I may have no idea what I'm talking about but did you loosen all the cylinder studs and removed 2. Or just loosened those 2 when you removed them?
He had to remove all four nuts to get the head off.
Thu Sep 15, 2022 3:39 pm

Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 11825
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
 
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 11825
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Thu Sep 15, 2022 3:39 pm linkquote
I don't see the sense in splitting an leaving the jug in place. pull it and do the base gasket for a job one right. motor can still stay in and all that.
Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:13 pm

Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
 
Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:13 pm linkquote
SoCalGuy wrote:
You don't have to take the engine out to replace the cruciform. You don't even have to drop it or remove the cylinder. You can split the case by removing the cylinder studs on the flywheel side, disconnecting the exhaust, and lifting the cylinder.
I was following this advice and it worked fine. just took out the flywheel side studs and lifted.
I replaced the cruciform and put the gears and spacer back and there was about .3mm of play so it seems good. When I first inspected the gear stack there was alot of wiggle, way more than my feeler gauge could read but i would say .5-1mm thus the clicking on roll i think

Should i loosen the other bolts before stitching it back up? I doo see what you are saying.....
Base gasket is about 200 miles old and looks good.

Gears look very good!

Last edited by Cdevillasante on Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:25 pm

Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
 
Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:25 pm linkquote
Oh and there is this spring that jumped out when I split the cases. I think it goes in this circular cut out for the kickstart gear. Am I right?





Thu Sep 15, 2022 5:45 pm

Molto Verboso
Joined: 29 Nov 2020
Posts: 1036
Location: Los Angeles
 
Molto Verboso
Joined: 29 Nov 2020
Posts: 1036
Location: Los Angeles
Thu Sep 15, 2022 5:45 pm linkquote
Cdevillasante wrote:
Should i loosen the other bolts before stitching it back up?
No.

Clean and apply blue Loctite to the bolts threads on the two you removed. Case side only.
Wait a day before torquing the cylinder head.
Thu Sep 15, 2022 5:53 pm

Molto Verboso
Joined: 29 Nov 2020
Posts: 1036
Location: Los Angeles
 
Molto Verboso
Joined: 29 Nov 2020
Posts: 1036
Location: Los Angeles
Thu Sep 15, 2022 5:53 pm linkquote
*Assuming the bolts didn't rotate while you removed the nuts on the big side.
Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:45 am

Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
 
Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:45 am linkquote
all buttoned up, cleaner and starts up! will do a test ride today and hope for the best! man getting that exhaust on was a challenge!
Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:36 pm

Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
 
Hooked
1979 P200, 1960 Lambretta s2, 1975 Rally 200
Joined: 08 Feb 2020
Posts: 308
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:36 pm linkquote
The clicking on roll is gone! New cruciform was the trick. Went for a test drive and it passed with flying colors!
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