Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:37 am

Molto Verboso
Dongfang 170cc, CF Moto Fashion 250
Joined: 07 Dec 2008
Posts: 1635
Location: Hyde Park, New York
 
Molto Verboso
Dongfang 170cc, CF Moto Fashion 250
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Posts: 1635
Location: Hyde Park, New York
Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:37 am linkquote
Here's a viewpoint ripe with controversial opinions for you. Such as "Scooters don't sell". Have at it.

https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/unpopular-opinion-the-honda-navi-is-irrelevant
Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:07 pm

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P208, Stella VMC Stelvio 187, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T, 02 Sportster XLH1208
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Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:07 pm linkquote
I agree with him mostly.. except he uses scooters weak sales in the US as a main argument for why people looking for cheaper transportation alternatives aren't gonna be interested in this. Scooters have weak sales in the US precisely because they are the opposite of cheap alternative transportation. They are equally as luxury toy purchase as motorcycles and you can get an intro range motorcycle with better performance for approximately the same price.

All the people I know who would be interested in cheaper alternative transport don't consider 8-14k cheaper alternative, but would call 1800 a cheaper alternative. But I agree with him on his main point.. American's don't want two wheelers for their main transport. Its a niche hobby/entertainment in this culture, and you get into it because its an alternative fun option to your main transport.

About the only thing that gets me excited about the navi is the price point. I would probably buy one if it could reliably go 65mph max, but it can't. So it's useless to me.

Same could be said for the bmw ce 04 electric scooter. Its got the max speed, but its priced way too f'n high for the same use case I would get either for. And that sums up why scooter sales suck in the US.
Fri Jan 07, 2022 3:17 pm

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Fri Jan 07, 2022 3:17 pm linkquote
I agree with Lemmy, the Navi is an impractical toy looking for a market.
Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:15 pm

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LXV 150 3v ie. Midnight Blue (Sold) Now Honda Zoomer X
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LXV 150 3v ie. Midnight Blue (Sold) Now Honda Zoomer X
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Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:15 pm linkquote
They already had a Navi, sort of. Same engine, etc..

Obviously, they thought it needed to look more like a motorbike?(sic) But I'm quite happy with mine.

Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:40 pm

eeee-bip
BMW R1100RT The Problem Child Moto Guzzi V9 Bobber
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eeee-bip
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Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:40 pm linkquote
i don't agree.

I think it's going to sell in buckets just like all small Honda's do.

Just like KFC.
Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:20 am

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LXV 150 3v ie. Midnight Blue (Sold) Now Honda Zoomer X
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Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:20 am linkquote
It occurred to me on the ride home that there may be a new racing formula for young children. Using the Navi.
Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:09 am

Addicted
1977 Bianchi Snark moped, 2022 Honda Navi, 2021 GTS 300 Super (yellow), 2021 GTS 300 Super (white)
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Addicted
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Posts: 594
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Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:09 am linkquote
They sold me. I've got a deposit on a red one. Mine is supposed to be here in mid February. It'll be a nice little upgrade from my vintage 50cc Bianchi Snark moped .
Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:19 am

Hooked
Piaggio Liberty 150 AKA Gio
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Location: Denver, Colorado
 
Hooked
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Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:19 am linkquote
At almost $1000 less than a Ruckus, probably one of the most popular city scooters (in Denver anyway), I think this will sell well. And it should be able to hit 45-50 mph with no mods (about as fast as you would want or need to go). A big improvement over the 50cc Ruckus. Would prefer the styling of the Zoomer-X though.
Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:14 pm

Hooked
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Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:14 pm linkquote
I have two Monkeys and a Grom @ this price point I am buying one just because it looks like fun and it is a Honda.
Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:43 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
GT 2.4
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:43 pm linkquote
It will sell if people buy it. If a lot of people buy it, it will sell well. If nobody buys it, it won't sell very well.
Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:16 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
LX190 Friday afternoon special, Primavera, some pushbikes
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:16 pm linkquote
Bill Dog wrote:
i don't agree.

I think it's going to sell in buckets just like all small Honda's do.

Just like KFC.
When was the last time you saw a KFC bucket in the wild?
Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:32 pm

eeee-bip
BMW R1100RT The Problem Child Moto Guzzi V9 Bobber
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eeee-bip
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Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:32 pm linkquote
The last time they were offering free "sides ".
Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:56 am

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Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:56 am linkquote
Motovista wrote:
It will sell if people buy it. If a lot of people buy it, it will sell well. If nobody buys it, it won't sell very well.
Profound man... really deep... far out...

You should work in corporate law, or perhaps public relations for the military.
Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:58 am

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Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:58 am linkquote
znomit wrote:
When was the last time you saw a KFC bucket in the wild?
Nobody appears in public with their bucket. It something you sneak home to enjoy behind closed curtains where nobody can see, like those little latex toys...

Oops...
Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:44 am

Hooked
'14 Stella Automatic - !vespa
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Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:44 am linkquote
I think Lemmy is absolutely right. Maybe not about the actual numbers, but about the state of the market. Honda may pick up a few buyers who don't want a Ruckus because it too expensive or they think scooters are for girls, and the balance will buy these instead of a used scooter, Grom, z125, etc. There will be precious few new motorcycling converts who wouldn't have entered the market without the Navi.

If you didn't need a motorcycle license, insurance, license plate, helmet, ride on the street with traffic instead of the sidewalk, and you could actually carry it by hand onto a bus, subway or elevator, then maybe.
Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:08 am

Member
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Location: Livonia, MI
 
Member
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Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:08 am linkquote
What is "posti"?
Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:46 pm

Ossessionato
GTS300 Super (Heinz) GTS250 Super (Bulger)
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Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:46 pm linkquote
Haters gonna hate, it's gonna sell. Parents will buy it for their kids. Rich kids will buy it for themselves. Grannies will buy it. I won't buy it though.
Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:15 pm

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Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:15 pm linkquote
It's the worse of all worlds. No storage, small displacement, same rear tire size as a Honda Metro, and you have to throw your leg over the top like riding a horse. Oh, and in most states it's the same license and registration requirements as a Harley Road King. Good luck in the US with this one Honda.
Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:20 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
GT 2.4
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:20 pm linkquote
Abner_Bjorn wrote:
It's the worse of all worlds. No storage, small displacement, same rear tire size as a Honda Metro, and you have to throw your leg over the top like riding a horse. Oh, and in most states it's the same license and registration requirements as a Harley Road King. Good luck in the US with this one Honda.
Watch the younger contestants try to drive cars with a manual transmission on the Amazing Race, and you will see pretty quickly why Honda thinks they can sell this in the US.

Last edited by Motovista on Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:21 pm

Hooked
'14 Stella Automatic - !vespa
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Location: Austin TX
 
Hooked
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Location: Austin TX
Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:21 pm linkquote
Lemmy suggested Honda may sell 5-10K of them per year in the US. That's a pretty big number for just one model, considering the likes of Triumph barely sell more than that in the USA total.

But it's not going to convert a bunch of people who want cheap urban transport into motorcyclists as Honda's marketing seems to want. It's just going to offset sales of stuff like Chinese scooters or used scooters and Grom-a-likes. People riding e-bikes or reliant on public transit and ride sharing are not going to buy them in significant numbers.

I guess to live in reality, you have to be a "hater"?
Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:23 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:23 pm linkquote
Fritz Katzenjammer wrote:
Profound man... really deep... far out...

You should work in corporate law, or perhaps public relations for the military.
Just call me Captain Obvious.
Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:27 pm

Hooked
'14 Stella Automatic - !vespa
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Hooked
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Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:27 pm linkquote
Abner_Bjorn wrote:
in most states it's the same license and registration requirements as a Harley Road King.
This is the kicker.

But I disagree otherwise. It has appeal. 1) it's not a scooter, so no scooter-stigma, 2) no shifting and clutch, like a GROM or any other regular motorcycle, 3) it's half the price of everything else that is not a scooter.

The problem is, an e-bike has all of this plus being able to ride on sidewalks, carry up stairs, store in your apartment, take on a train, etc. And no legal helmet requirement in most places. No insurance, licensing, etc.
Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:36 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:36 pm linkquote
mr72 wrote:
But it's not going to convert a bunch of people who want cheap urban transport into motorcyclists as Honda's marketing seems to want. It's just going to offset sales of stuff like Chinese scooters or used scooters and Grom-a-likes. People riding e-bikes or reliant on public transit and ride sharing are not going to buy them in significant numbers.

I guess to live in reality, you have to be a "hater"?
Think for a moment about who is likely to buy this, instead of why you don't want one. Honda has a few things the makers of Chinese scooters don't. A warranty that is a real warranty, a reliable product so you're not chaining it to a lamp post and calling the boss to explain why you're late again because your scooter broke, dealerships with technicians who can actually keep these things running, parts departments with parts in them, and American Honda Motor Credit consumer financing. People are looking for alternatives to public transportation in many urban areas because of the pandemic. If you have decent credit, you will be able to get on one of these with less than $300 and it will likely still run when it's paid off, even if you finance it for four years. You can't get into a good used scooter for that, and if you're not mechanically inclined, this is probably a better deal than having someone drop off an $1100 TaoTao in a crate in front of your apartment. Even if you can rebuild a Jet Engine with a screwdriver and a crescent wrench, this is probably still a better deal in terms of cost per mile, than the Chinese scooters we see in the US.
Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:39 pm

Hooked
'14 Stella Automatic - !vespa
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Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:39 pm linkquote
Motovista wrote:
Think for a moment about who is likely to buy this, instead of why you don't want one. ...
Why wouldn't that person buy an e-bike instead?
Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:01 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:01 pm linkquote
mr72 wrote:
Why wouldn't that person buy an e-bike instead?
Because unless you've got serious game, you can't take someone home on a bicycle.
I'm sure there are people who will opt for an e-bike, or a Vespa Primavera, or sixteen TaoTaos delivered on a semi regular basis, or a bus pass instead. But Honda doesn't need to sell everybody one, and their long game is that some of those people will move up to a 150cc or 300cc bike, then to something bigger as they get older and more experienced, or even a car. Honda makes bigger bikes and cars. And Honda knows how to build brand loyalty.
Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:56 pm

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Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:56 pm linkquote
All the Grom people I know are trippin' out over the Navi. I think it's gonna be a huge seller myself. Heck, I may even look into getting one for the heck of it! Always wanted a Monkey for some strange reason but don't wanna shift or maintain a chain. And you never know, this little Navi may get more butts on bike seats. Wait and see, but I expect big things from the little Navi!
Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:45 pm

eeee-bip
BMW R1100RT The Problem Child Moto Guzzi V9 Bobber
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eeee-bip
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Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:45 pm linkquote
So what happened the last time gas prices were high ?

Scooter sales soared.

Honda's marketing is so good I'm pretty sure history is going to be repeated.
Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:17 pm

Ossessionato
2015 GTS 300 Super (Melody: 2015-2021, RIP) 2022 GTS SuperTech (Thelonica)
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Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:17 pm linkquote
Motovista wrote:
Just call me Captain Obvious.
I'm guessing you're a bit more dashing...


But, would HE buy a Navi?

Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:37 pm

Ossessionato
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Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:37 pm linkquote
As I, an ex-Noo Yawker, still live close enough to Gotham to measure its overall pulse, I say it won't be too long before I see Navis tooling along its streets.

Of course, I've seen damned-near everything along the Big Town's streets: every flavor of stretched/chopped/oddly-molested Grom, horrifically abused Chinese throwaways, Yamaha Vinos and Zumas, licensed and (mostly) unlicensed, along with Dog knows how many e-scooters. Truth is, most anything can and will sell there, given the "licensing optional" attitude the currently prevails (we'll see how Gotham's new Mayor handles this, but my hopes aren't terribly high, whatever NYPD thinks of him). Lots of kids like having their own rides there, and a little novelty can go some distance. Time, alone will tell, of course.
Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:31 am

eeee-bip
BMW R1100RT The Problem Child Moto Guzzi V9 Bobber
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Location: South East Great England of Britishland
 
eeee-bip
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Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:31 am linkquote
Just a little warning from those on that side of the pond.

Here's a tale from a friend on the East Coast -

And there's big news on the Navi front. I get a call from a sales girl at a local dealership a big megamall that sucks and rips off people, but she was nice and I agree to come in with my eyes wide open looking for any problem on their end. she said they had two Navi's and we could come in and my wife could try it on for size. So we go in, everybody is very friendly there is one red navy on the floor, and she sits on it and tries it out blah blah blah, and she likes it. So we go into the sales girls office and she says OK let's see if I can write up a deal. The big news is they try to rip us off. The price of the bike is $1807. The offer they gave to us was $3575 if we wanted to buy it. OK, there's about $250 in sales tax and motor vehicle fees in there which is expected and non negotiable. The rest is $1400 of mark up because they're impossible to find. Needless to say, we walked.

Just putting it out there.
Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:38 am

Addicted
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Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:38 am linkquote
I paid $1807 plus sales tax, title and tags. Came to about $2400 OTD. Not all Honda dealers are ripoffs.
Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:36 am

eeee-bip
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eeee-bip
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Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:36 am linkquote
I didn't say it was a Honda dealer.

Another one has been in touch. $3100 was the offer.

No, was the answer.

Interesting times.
Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:36 am

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Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:36 am linkquote
So, it's a non-Honda dealer selling two new Navi's? I'm confused.
Bill Dog wrote:
I didn't say it was a Honda dealer.

Another one has been in touch. $3100 was the offer.

No, was the answer.

Interesting times.
Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:41 am

eeee-bip
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eeee-bip
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Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:41 am linkquote
It's one of those Multi Brand Bike Supermarket Outlet things.

Honda are represented but it's not a dedicated Honda Dealership as such.

The outlet has a bit of a reputation.
Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:23 am

Molto Verboso
Dongfang 170cc, CF Moto Fashion 250
Joined: 07 Dec 2008
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Molto Verboso
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Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:23 am linkquote
What I wonder about is, if the Navi sells will scooter powered motorcycles follow. I owned a Big Ruckus and it always felt, to me, like an underpowered, heavy Honda Rebel.

CF Moto had the V-3 and V-5 and the people who owned them, if they didn't give them headaches, liked them.

Imagine a PCX powered or Forza powered Big Navi. Maybe the youngsters who buy the 110cc model might move up to that later. What the heck. let's go berserk. A Silver Wing powered Grand Navi.
Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:29 pm

Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
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Molto Verboso
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Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:29 pm linkquote
I think it all depends on the geographical location, there traffic and the use that is going to be given . I see this scooter ideally for the back of an RV, or for a university student moving around in the campus, or small country side towns or even truly urban cities with congested traffic.

It is not a good scooter to jump into a high speed hwy and absolutely no uses for a interstate. If you have cares and acres of land and live in a farm it is an ideal transportation.
If I lived in Europe or Asia I'd say yes in a heartbeat. In Europe they respect scooters on the road more than in America. In Asia it would be a hit too.
Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:58 am

Addicted
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Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:58 am linkquote
Just brought home the first Navi to be sold in Richmond, VA. Going out on my first ride with her tomorrow when it's a bit warmer.





Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:00 am

eeee-bip
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eeee-bip
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Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:00 am linkquote
Could you PM me with how much you paid for it and a breakdown of the costs.

Thank you.
Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:20 pm

Addicted
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Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:20 pm linkquote
Bill, Check your inbox
Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:51 pm

Molto Verboso
Dongfang 170cc, CF Moto Fashion 250
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Location: Hyde Park, New York
 
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Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:51 pm linkquote
Mopedlar wrote:
Just brought home the first Navi to be sold in Richmond, VA. Going out on my first ride with her tomorrow when it's a bit warmer.
Good luck. Keep us updated on how it works.
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