Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:25 pm

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

 
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:25 pm linkquote
I'm trying to get the cylinder head temp down on my 2005 PX210. The specs on my engine are-
-Malossi 210 kit (2016 sport).
-dellorto 30 mil carb.
-a quality rotary cut crank (but I can't remember which brand or the specs on it).
-PX200 transmission with a short T5 36T 4th. 24 tooth clutch (24/65).
-SIP/Nordspeed Road XL Viper Box exhaust.
-HHP v6 CDI (stock stator and flywheel). The ignition map is set to the #2 curve.

The specs on the 30 mil dellorto are-
Uni foam filter
300 needle seat
AS 266 atomizer
X4 needle (3rd clip down from top)
155 main
59 idle

My CHT is right around 300~305 degrees @ 55mph. (I don't have a tach on the scooter). At about 65mph the temp ramps up to about 340 degrees. I currently have a 155 main. When I installed a 158 main the engine wouldn't rev out past 3/4 throttle, and the temps weren't any cooler then when I had that 155 main installed. I can't remember what I set my initial timing at...maybe 25 degrees? I'm trying to figure out just which ignition map I should use on the HHP as well as to what to set the initial timing at. I'd like to be able to have the option to cruise at 75mph without melting down anything. But more realistically I'd be cruising closer to 55~65mph.

Do you have any tips?


And of course an obligatory pic of my embarrassingly red PX.







Last edited by whodatschrome on Wed Aug 24, 2022 1:13 pm; edited 4 times in total
Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:05 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 6508
Location: San Diego, CA
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 6508
Location: San Diego, CA
Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:05 pm linkquote
speed to rpm



Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:28 pm

Ossessionato
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 61 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 90 V5N 50, 01 ET2, 2015 HD Road Glide Special
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 4442
Location: Oceanside, CA
 
Ossessionato
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 61 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 90 V5N 50, 01 ET2, 2015 HD Road Glide Special
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 4442
Location: Oceanside, CA
Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:28 pm linkquote
I'm trying to remember what main I have on my 225 reed with the 30mm dellorto. Definitely lower MJ! What's your spark plug color? I ditched the uni filter on mine as it messed with performance and I really had to lean out jetting for things to run right.
Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:27 pm

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

 
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:27 pm linkquote
sdjohn wrote:
speed to rpm
I have a 24/65 primary, so it doesn't plug into the calculator.
Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:56 pm

Banned
2:6
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 8308
Location: San Francisco
 
Banned
2:6
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 8308
Location: San Francisco
Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:56 pm linkquote
What temp are you trying to get down to? Seems like it's on the low side already.

I run CHT at 175-225C (350-450F) all day long with zero issues.
Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:59 pm

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

 
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:59 pm linkquote
MJRally wrote:
I'm trying to remember what main I have on my 225 reed with the 30mm dellorto. Definitely lower MJ! What's your spark plug color? I ditched the uni filter on mine as it messed with performance and I really had to lean out jetting for things to run right.
The plug is blacker than the ace of spades. I just kept upjetting until my temps went down as far as I could get them. I originally ran with a 132 main and Sito+, but the engine wouldn't rev out worth a beans, so that's when I swapped on the Viper box.

I have to run an air filter on all my scooters. My driveway is 300 meters of dusty gravel during the summertime. So from the time I leave, to the time I get back home, it's just about time to clean my air filter!







Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:05 pm

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

 
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:05 pm linkquote
oopsclunkthud wrote:
What temp are you trying to get down to? Seems like it's on the low side already.

I run CHT at 175-225C (350-450F) all day long with zero issues.
I thought everyone one preaching to keep the CHT below 300F?
Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:19 pm

Ossessionato
P208, Stella VMC Stelvio 187, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T, 02 Sportster XLH1208
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 3986
Location: Staten Island, NY
 
Ossessionato
P208, Stella VMC Stelvio 187, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T, 02 Sportster XLH1208
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 3986
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:19 pm linkquote
Jack suggests going too rich can also increase cht readings from the increased pressure in the chamber. Maybe that's what is going on with you? It sounds exactly like what my problem with on my malossi 166 that I was never able to fully solve. Part of my problem was too rich main which did improve as Jack suggested by going leaner (against all your impulses and very carefully until I started to see the temps cool off much faster at wot but never really settle low enough for his targets) and the other thing with the biggest improvement was reducing the squish from 1.15-1.2 down to 0.8mm.
Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:34 pm

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

 
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:34 pm linkquote
swiss1939 wrote:
Jack suggests going too rich can also increase cht readings from the increased pressure in the chamber. Maybe that's what is going on with you? It sounds exactly like what my problem with on my malossi 166 that I was never able to fully solve. Part of my problem was too rich main which did improve as Jack suggested by going leaner (against all your impulses and very carefully until I started to see the temps cool off much faster at wot but never really settle low enough for his targets) and the other thing with the biggest improvement was reducing the squish from 1.15-1.2 down to 0.8mm.
And I have no idea what my squish is. I know I did check it at one point when I first installed the cylinder, but that was a couple years ago. I rarely ever ride this scooter, so I don't have that many miles on this kit. The Malossi kit that I used came with a head. I'd like to say that the squish was around 1.4mm?...but I can't remember, and I can't find it in my notes.

My jetting does feel rich, and I would like to lean it out a bit.
Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:05 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 6508
Location: San Diego, CA
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 6508
Location: San Diego, CA
Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:05 pm linkquote
whodatschrome wrote:
I have a 24/65 primary, so it doesn't plug into the calculator.
I will send you my spreadsheet
Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:16 pm

Hooked
Parmakit Primavera -74, Polini Primavera -68, Stock 150 Touring -59, VMC 177 Bajaj Chetak 125 -95
Joined: 22 Jun 2022
Posts: 397
Location: Finland
 
Hooked
Parmakit Primavera -74, Polini Primavera -68, Stock 150 Touring -59, VMC 177 Bajaj Chetak 125 -95
Joined: 22 Jun 2022
Posts: 397
Location: Finland
Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:16 pm linkquote
The carb angle looks a tad steep to me. Messes with float bowl fuel level and.can cause funky results when tuning the carb.
Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:57 pm

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

 
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:57 pm linkquote
FINYoshi wrote:
The carb angle looks a tad steep to me. Messes with float bowl fuel level and.can cause funky results when tuning the carb.
It may be too steep, but it the carb is at the only angle is can be at when used with a Malossi rotary intake manifold. It would probably take making a custom manifold in order to get the carb completely level.
Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:35 pm

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181 Quattrini and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3444
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181 Quattrini and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3444
Location: London UK
Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:35 pm linkquote
Plug looks black. Too black. Sure its not gear oil? Would be pretty sure there is no one else with a PHBH and main jet that big that revs out. Add in the temperature factor. Suspicious.
Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:52 am

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

 
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:52 am linkquote
Jack221 wrote:
Plug looks black. Too black. Sure its not gear oil? Would be pretty sure there is no one else with a PHBH and main jet that big that revs out. Add in the temperature factor. Suspicious.
I just checked the gear oil level, and it's still up to the brim of the fill bolt. It's been like that for probably the last 500 miles.

And i wouldn't say that the engine revs out that well. It feels like it's over-jetted, but the reason i did that was to help keep the temps down. Perhaps my initial timing isn't correct, or maybe i'm using the wrong ignition curve? I can't remember what the current timing is, but i think it's at 25 degrees? I'll have to strobe it to make sure.

The Viper box has a 21.50mm outlet pipe diameter. Could that be a little bit on the larger size for cruising on the motorway for longer distances?
Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:58 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 6508
Location: San Diego, CA
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 6508
Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:58 am linkquote
not that it's going to solve your issue, but here is your speed chart with 24/65



Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:06 am

Molto Verboso
Joined: 29 Nov 2020
Posts: 1036
Location: Los Angeles
 
Molto Verboso
Joined: 29 Nov 2020
Posts: 1036
Location: Los Angeles
Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:06 am linkquote
whodatschrome wrote:
I have to run an air filter on all my scooters. My driveway is 300 meters of dusty gravel during the summertime. So from the time I leave, to the time I get back home, it's just about time to clean my air filter!
You're pulling dirty hot air there, Whodat.

Saw a blog post where someone modded a bellows to use a filter. Can't find it now

Anyway, cooler, more consistent jetting, quieter:

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/air-bellow-malossi-phbh-28-30-carburettor_17980200

Filter similar to this guy:
https://www.amazon.com/Speedmaster-PCE104-1090/dp/B07K9GSHXC


Not this but similar.

Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:33 am

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181 Quattrini and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3444
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181 Quattrini and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3444
Location: London UK
Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:33 am linkquote
whodatschrome wrote:
I just checked the gear oil level, and it's still up to the brim of the fill bolt. It's been like that for probably the last 500 miles.

And i wouldn't say that the engine revs out that well. It feels like it's over-jetted, but the reason i did that was to help keep the temps down. Perhaps my initial timing isn't correct, or maybe i'm using the wrong ignition curve? I can't remember what the current timing is, but i think it's at 25 degrees? I'll have to strobe it to make sure.

The Viper box has a 21.50mm outlet pipe diameter. Could that be a little bit on the larger size for cruising on the motorway for longer distances?
There is something up and its an issue. X4 is a lean needle. 266 (probably AV) is slightly lean on a 200. Plug is really really black. I think you're sucking oil. Sometimes the gear oil and 2 stroke switch places and the gear oil level ends up overfull, especially if ridden moderately most of the time.
Wed Aug 24, 2022 1:24 pm

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

 
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

Wed Aug 24, 2022 1:24 pm linkquote
Jack221 wrote:
There is something up and its an issue. X4 is a lean needle. 266 (probably AV) is slightly lean on a 200. Plug is really really black. I think you're sucking oil. Sometimes the gear oil and 2 stroke switch places and the gear oil level ends up overfull, especially if ridden moderately most of the time.
I just double checked my carb stats and i was off on a few of the specs. I edited my first posting to refect what i currently have, but here it is down here...
-30 mil Dellorto.
-300 needle seat.
-clip 3rd down from the top.
-AS 266 atomiser (not AV).
-59 idle
-155 MJ

My transmission oil isn't over filled at all. I check the level this morning and nothing came out if the filler hole, so it's definitely not over full. Only once i slighty tilted the scooter to the right did any oil come out. I'm running 3% premix (i'm not using the auto-lube), so i don't think that just 2T oil can fill up the case (it would have to be a 2T oil/fuel mix that would fill my case).


I guess to start out with, what is an optimal ignition curve (HHP v6 CDI box) to use, and what should i set my inital timing at?
Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:53 pm

Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1447
Location: California
 
Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1447
Location: California
Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:53 pm linkquote
whodat the good thing is the PHBH is a really good carb you'll see once it's dailed in. So much easier than a finicky si. Like the others have mentioned get the carb bellows it works better and it looks correct no other filter is needed. The carb angle looks OK to me like many nice snake head by the way. Only issue might be the float adjustment. I had an older float design with twin floats on a metal bracket that required precise adjusting and potential error. Ended up ordering a new float which arrived fully plastic molded and NO way to adjust concern no more. Think it fixed my fuel starvation problem.

On the temps they seem somewhat similar to mine. Before I worked with Jack my temps would creep beyond 375 at times and ran terrible.
Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:23 pm

Addicted
PX 200
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 941

 
Addicted
PX 200
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 941

Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:23 pm linkquote
Yeah, your jetting is way too rich across the board. Everything is too large

Idle should be 55

Needle, aim for x2, second clip down from top, that position is perfect for the 210 port timings and most exhausts

And the main on a rotary should be 130, doesn't need to be any more… the engine just doesn't need it

If it's been running like this for a while and there hasn't been any stalling problems when you come to a stop, probably means you have a air leak somewhere. Most likely cylinder base or intake manifold

I ran the phbh on stock port timing for about 3 years. Swapped because it was a little pedestrian.

Ignition timing, easiest to just use curve 6 and be done with it… but you can get some extra power with curve 1 and 2.

Depends on how you ride I suppose.
Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:39 pm

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

 
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:39 pm linkquote
108 wrote:
Yeah, your jetting is way too rich across the board. Everything is too large

Idle should be 55

Needle, aim for x2, second clip down from top, that position is perfect for the 210 port timings and most exhausts

And the main on a rotary should be 130, doesn't need to be any more… the engine just doesn't need it

If it's been running like this for a while and there hasn't been any stalling problems when you come to a stop, probably means you have a air leak somewhere. Most likely cylinder base or intake manifold

I ran the phbh on stock port timing for about 3 years. Swapped because it was a little pedestrian.

Ignition timing, easiest to just use curve 6 and be done with it… but you can get some extra power with curve 1 and 2.

Depends on how you ride I suppose.
I'll dig through my jets and accessories this evening and see what all I have.

And when I look at the HHP graph, it looks to me like curve 6 is just static 19 degrees? If so, I think it would be easier to simply remove the HHP CDI and replace is with a stock Ducati CDI and set the timing to 19 degrees?

No, the engine doesn't have any stalling issues at a stop. It does take a little bit of coaxing to get the wheels rolling from a stop though (The engine is very slow to accelerate at low RPMs). I just assumed it was because I have a 24 tooth clutch.
If there is an air leak, hopefully it's just the intake manifold. I'll remove it and check it out tonight.

And my riding style is 95% higher speed commuting on the highways. So anywhere from 55mph to 70mph+. And I'll keep it at those speeds for round 25 miles (at least). I'll also deal with lots of hills and headwinds. And right now with my jetting, the scooter is a total dog at climbing hills. My stock PX200 with a Sito+ has way more grunt up hills.
Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:05 pm

Addicted
PX 200
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 941

 
Addicted
PX 200
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 941

Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:05 pm linkquote
Yeah with your current jetting, it's not going anywhere with the hills…

You won't have any revs to climb because it's running too rich.

Oh youre mostly on highways? Number 3 might be a worthy choice. But you have hills, which you could probably do with a bit of pick up…

steep hills or long rolling hills?

But honestly variable timing only helps if you go up and down the rev range often in your ride…

If your stator plate is in the right position (strobed properly) it's easier to keep what you have. Unless you want to reinstall the old ducati
Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:09 pm

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

 
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:09 pm linkquote
108 wrote:
Yeah with your current jetting, it's not going anywhere with the hills…

You won't have any revs to climb because it's running too rich.

Oh youre mostly on highways? Number 3 might be a worthy choice. But you have hills, which you could probably do with a bit of pick up…

steep hills or long rolling hills?

But honestly variable timing only helps if you go up and down the rev range often in your ride…

If your stator plate is in the right position (strobed properly) it's easier to keep what you have. Unless you want to reinstall the old ducati
Yes, i'm mostly on highways...until i'm not on highways. Then it's climbing lots of steep hills...and a few long rolling hills...and a mountain every now and then. I live at about 1000' above sea level. So it's about a 1000' ride down the hill to the highway, then another 1000' climb back home. Of course it's not all in one hill, but it's about a 1000' climb in 6 miles. Unless the traffic is bad on the highway, then it's the back roads through the mountains to get to the big city. Gravel roads, twisty pavement, long steep hill climbs, and a shortcut through a deer trail to an old MX race track and back out another deer trail to the county road again. Literally my riding takes me through every type of terrain, so my RPM revs are all over the place.

-I did find a 55 idle jet, and i installed that.
-I dropped my MJ from a 155 to a 142 for the next test. I can lower it more after my first test ride.
-i resealed my intake manifold to the case with Yomammabond. I'll let it dry over night.
-the only needles i have are x3, x4, D26. I don't have a x2. I can call around to see if anyone has one in stock...which probably means ordering one from SIP.

I'd prefer to just leave the HHP CDI there. I was jockeying back and forth between the 2nd and 3rd ignition curve. I couldn't tell the difference between the two of then the way my scooter was running. I do seemed to recall that the CHT was a little bit lower on the 2nd curve? or perhaps the ambient temp outside was cooler on that particular day so the cylinder ran cooler? I dunno.

I'm just not sure where to set the initial timing at for my stator.
Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:45 pm

Addicted
PX 200
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 941

 
Addicted
PX 200
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 941

Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:45 pm linkquote
If you're so far above sea level, then you're definitely way too rich…

Sounds like you should be riding something else with the journey you have!!

With the 210, most carb needles seem to be fairly straight. So there's not much taper to them and they're on the thick side. It's actually like the engine isn't very fuel hungry.

From the graph, seems like it advances then retards. (Can't see what it says in German) but I'd set it at 18deg

I doubt your setup will go past 8000rpm so I'd try 18, but make sure it retards when you rev out with a timing light. (Not all timing lights can follow the movement of the timing. Some lights you don't see anything except the idle timing)

It has to retard after 4000rpm if not youll be stuck at 24deg and you'll have overheating issues and piston damage especially if you ride for a sustained rpm for so long.

You also need to the usual piston stopper, flywheel puller holder, degree wheel etc to check.

I think YouTube has a bunch of videos on setting the stator and strobing the flywheel
Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:40 pm

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

 
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:40 pm linkquote
108 wrote:
If you're so far above sea level, then you're definitely way too rich…

Sounds like you should be riding something else with the journey you have!!

With the 210, most carb needles seem to be fairly straight. So there's not much taper to them and they're on the thick side. It's actually like the engine isn't very fuel hungry.

From the graph, seems like it advances then retards. (Can't see what it says in German) but I'd set it at 18deg

I doubt your setup will go past 8000rpm so I'd try 18, but make sure it retards when you rev out with a timing light. (Not all timing lights can follow the movement of the timing. Some lights you don't see anything except the idle timing)

It has to retard after 4000rpm if not youll be stuck at 24deg and you'll have overheating issues and piston damage especially if you ride for a sustained rpm for so long.

You also need to the usual piston stopper, flywheel puller holder, degree wheel etc to check.

I think YouTube has a bunch of videos on setting the stator and strobing the flywheel
I have a quiver full of plated KTM dirtbikes and twin cylinder adventure bikes, but for some reason I rarely ever ride them on pavement. Maybe once a year?...and that's only if I'm riding out to a trailhead. I think the last time I rode my KTM 990 on the pavement for the sake of a pavement ride was about 5 years ago? And that was a ride into town and back. I much prefer to ride my Vespas (or Lammys) instead...even if the terrain isn't particularly suited to them.

1000' isn't too far above sea level. Plus I ride down in elevation to get to point B. I'll have to check to see what I set my timing at. I thought I had set it at 25 degrees (at an idle)? I'll strobe it tomorrow afternoon to double check. My timing light will follow the movement, so no worries there.

I guess setting the initial timing depends upon just which ignition curve I use? I suppose I would need to do reverse math to find out where I want my ignition to retard at when I'm at max RPMs?
Wed Aug 24, 2022 10:47 pm

Addicted
PX 200
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 941

 
Addicted
PX 200
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 941

Wed Aug 24, 2022 10:47 pm linkquote
Ah sorry mate, was thinking in metres…

Yeah that's not too far from sea level… you'll be using similar jetting to sea level.

But from your graph, if it's 25 at idle, you'll go all the way to 33 deg at 4000rpm which would be super hot.

And never get to the 18 deg the cylinder wants.

Best to strobe it to see if that's the case.

But probably explains why you can get away with such rich jetting, you have enough time for it to try to burn… the unburnt stuff just sits around collecting.
Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:25 pm

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181 Quattrini and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3444
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181 Quattrini and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3444
Location: London UK
Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:25 pm linkquote
whodatschrome wrote:
I just double checked my carb stats and i was off on a few of the specs. I edited my first posting to refect what i currently have, but here it is down here...
-30 mil Dellorto.
-300 needle seat.
-clip 3rd down from the top.
-AS 266 atomiser (not AV).
-59 idle
-155 MJ

My transmission oil isn't over filled at all. I check the level this morning and nothing came out if the filler hole, so it's definitely not over full. Only once i slighty tilted the scooter to the right did any oil come out. I'm running 3% premix (i'm not using the auto-lube), so i don't think that just 2T oil can fill up the case (it would have to be a 2T oil/fuel mix that would fill my case).


I guess to start out with, what is an optimal ignition curve (HHP v6 CDI box) to use, and what should i set my inital timing at?
Timing. I looked at the chart and I would put it on 24@3000 and curve 4. I decided on this before reading further and this is what HHP are calling ROAD. This assumes that compression and squish are typical old malossi 210. Strobe it using your own marks. If the original marks are over, it will seize at cruise, when jetted correctly.

For now lets assume there is no oil seal issue. Start with a fresh 8 plug and see what happens.

X2 needle is common on a 210 and can get them locally in the US I'm sure. AS266 is good. 55 pilot. No main jet. Float height exactly 24mm. When you get the needle we'll start from there.

Doubt a 1000 feet will notice on the jetting. Compared to what it was.

Really should get that foam filter off and bellows to frame before jetting starts.
Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:12 am

Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 3052
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 3052
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:12 am linkquote
I have a Kytronics setup, with a few more curves but principle is the same. I started with a conservative option. Looks like fourth option or curve 3 (touring) instructions I read start at curve 0. In this case curve 4 is all in at 14 degrees at 7000 rpm. A slight variation on Jack's suggestion is to rev to 7000 rpm and make sure it shows 14° and adjust as needed.
Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:59 pm

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181 Quattrini and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3444
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181 Quattrini and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3444
Location: London UK
Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:59 pm linkquote
Christopher_55934 wrote:
I have a Kytronics setup, with a few more curves but principle is the same. I started with a conservative option. Looks like fourth option or curve 3 (touring) instructions I read start at curve 0. In this case curve 4 is all in at 14 degrees at 7000 rpm. A slight variation on Jack's suggestion is to rev to 7000 rpm and make sure it shows 14° and adjust as needed.
17°
Thu Aug 25, 2022 1:17 pm

Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 3052
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 3052
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Thu Aug 25, 2022 1:17 pm linkquote
Jack221 wrote:
17°
Maybe they're old instructions or not same unit? This says built in 10°, so would you set it to 17° at 7000 rpm which would be about 27° at 2000 rpm?

VESPA_Lambretta_HHPCDI+v3v4+EN.pdf
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  VESPA_Lambretta_HHPCDI+v3v4+EN.pdf
 Filesize:  85.73 KB

Sun Aug 28, 2022 1:21 pm

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

 
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

Sun Aug 28, 2022 1:21 pm linkquote
So should i swap out my angled Malossi intake manifold for a MRP version? https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/intake-manifold-mrp_22159530
Mon Aug 29, 2022 1:01 am

Addicted
PX 200
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 941

 
Addicted
PX 200
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 941

Mon Aug 29, 2022 1:01 am linkquote
whodatschrome wrote:
So should i swap out my angled Malossi intake manifold for a MRP version? https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/intake-manifold-mrp_22159530
Doesn't make a difference, only in the way it looks…
Mon Aug 29, 2022 1:29 am

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181 Quattrini and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3444
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181 Quattrini and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3444
Location: London UK
Mon Aug 29, 2022 1:29 am linkquote
108 wrote:
Doesn't make a difference, only in the way it looks…
+1
Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:30 pm

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

 
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:30 pm linkquote
Christopher_55934 wrote:
Maybe they're old instructions or not same unit? This says built in 10°, so would you set it to 17° at 7000 rpm which would be about 27° at 2000 rpm?
I just looked, and the HHP boxes in the instructions you found are for the v3 and v4 versions. The HHP that i have is the v6 version.
Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:49 pm

Addicted
PX 200
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 941

 
Addicted
PX 200
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 941

Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:49 pm linkquote
What's the difference in versions?
Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:07 pm

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

 
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:07 pm linkquote
108 wrote:
What's the difference in versions?
I have absolutely no idea. Maybe one graph is drawn by a 4 year old kid, while another graph is drawn by a 5 year old?
Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:11 pm

Addicted
PX 200
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 941

 
Addicted
PX 200
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 941

Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:11 pm linkquote
Ah thought there might have been changes to hardware…
Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:16 pm

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

 
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:16 pm linkquote
Jack221 wrote:
Timing. I looked at the chart and I would put it on 24@3000 and curve 4. I decided on this before reading further and this is what HHP are calling ROAD. This assumes that compression and squish are typical old malossi 210. Strobe it using your own marks. If the original marks are over, it will seize at cruise, when jetted correctly.

For now lets assume there is no oil seal issue. Start with a fresh 8 plug and see what happens.

X2 needle is common on a 210 and can get them locally in the US I'm sure. AS266 is good. 55 pilot. No main jet. Float height exactly 24mm. When you get the needle we'll start from there.

Doubt a 1000 feet will notice on the jetting. Compared to what it was.

Really should get that foam filter off and bellows to frame before jetting starts.
My x2 needle arrived today in the mail, and it's installed. The clip is located two down from the top.

What does removing the main jet do for me during testing?

Normally I use a B9 plug in all my tuned engines that I ride on the highway, what's the reasoning for using a hotter B8?

I ordered up a Trail Tech tach today. Maybe it will arrive before the weekend? I have a wireless tachometer (that I use for testing my chainsaws). I don't know how accurate it is, but I suppose I could check to see what my RPM is when the timing is at 24 degrees.
Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:24 pm

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

 
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3766

Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:24 pm linkquote
108 wrote:
Ah thought there might have been changes to hardware…
There's probably a software change. I haven't looked at the graphs side by side. Plus who really knows how accurate a photocopied graph actually is.
Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:00 pm

Addicted
PX 200
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 941

 
Addicted
PX 200
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 941

Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:00 pm linkquote
whodatschrome wrote:
What does removing the main jet do for me during testing?

Removing the main jet makes sure you're always on the rich/safe side when testing the needle and atomiser combo. Stuff won't blow up. Well that's the idea. You'll be super rich at some points, but that's ok.

You won't be testing the end result… but identifying the correct needle.

x2 is 90% certain for a tuned engine. Especially if it's reeds (can't remember what setup you have)
  DoubleGood Vespa Design  

All Content Copyright 2005-2022 by Modern Vespa. All Rights Reserved.

Modern Vespa is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to amazon.com.

Shop on Amazon Smile with Modern Vespa

[ Time: 0.0299s ][ Queries: 7 (0.0060s) ][ Debug on ][ 211 ][ Thing One ]