Sat Aug 27, 2022 5:01 am

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VBA1T
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Sat Aug 27, 2022 5:01 am linkquote
Hello, I'm Colin from Belgium !

Please excuse my average english level, I 'm french

I've had a dream for quite long time, owning a vintage Vespa. But what I prefer is working on things, rebuilding, modifying instead of simply owning. I could have bought a restored Vespa but that's no fun and I wouldn't have the same pleasure. I know nothing at Vespa world, I did rebuilt a few vintage japanese bikes (Kawazaki mostly) and Indian bikes (Royal Enfield).

Close to my place I saw a FB market page...



It's now in my garage !

I have received a lot of spares in bad or very bad shape.
I studied a lot from forums, videos... Now it's time to start !

I got a brand new engine with the body, not a real PX but a LML 150 5 transfers. The engine has about 7 years and has never been use, just stored. What a pity LML puts so much oil on the case in order to preserve it ! From what ? Rust ?!



I also have the original fork, made for 8' wheel. As I may ride with my girlfriend, I think the safest way is to ride on 10' wheel, and the engine is made for 10'. I also had with the body a VGLA old fork, so I had to take the balancer from this fork and put it on the original fork tube as they are different and not interchangeable.

The front fender supplied is already a VGLA, I will then have a VBA mixed with a GL. I'm not crazy about having a full OG Vespa, I want to use it in the modern way in modern conditions, I'm not closed to restomod things.

I went a bit too fast ordering parts, some do fit, some don't, but hey, learning my lessons...

I started by doing body work, some had been done already by the previous owner but not in the best way... I didn't take any pictures, I was too excited I had to use dolly and hammer quite a lot ! The body has now gone to the body shop for paint.

Then I rebuilt the fork...

Original VBA



VGLA (with old crashed fender attached !)



Cleaning, primer...





The visible aluminum part looks rough, decided to polish that part





painted and rebuilt with a few new parts





I'm not super happy with repro parts, quality is not that good... I'd like to re-use the brake drum and shaft from the VGLA fork but te drum is in bad shape, I had to redrill the holes to fit new rods on wich the wheel bolts on, they were totally welded by rust. I need to use helicoil but I found a crack in on of the aluminum ears, I will find a shop where they can weld aluminum and retrofit this part, I couldn't find a new drum like the original, it has 2 spigots that are not on reproduction models



It looks in bad shape but this is only surface rust



This is were I'm at !

Concerning the engine, do you think I should replace all oil seals ? Around 7 years old, never ran.

Thanks
Sat Aug 27, 2022 5:21 am

Addicted
1964 Piaggio Allstate Cruisaire
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Sat Aug 27, 2022 5:21 am linkquote
Nice work. Looks great.
Sat Aug 27, 2022 8:12 am

Hooked
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Sat Aug 27, 2022 8:12 am linkquote
Looks like you are well up to speed. Keep up this momentum and you will soon have a nice scoot to ride.

I'd open up that engine and replace the seals and bearings with non-indian ones. This will save you grief along the way since you will most likely wan't to ride it too. Split the engine, order what is needed and build the lump while you wait for something related to the frame.

There will be times when you notice "oh, I will need a new part X before I can continue with assembly".
Sat Aug 27, 2022 8:34 am

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79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
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Sat Aug 27, 2022 8:34 am linkquote
Welcome to MV Colin! I think your English is excellent.

It looks like a fun project. Since the engine is on the bench, I'd split the cases and put in new seals and bearings, and maybe even a different crank. The LML crankshafts seem to have issues after 4k miles or so.

I'll be following along - and congratulations and good job on finding this close by and bringing another Vespa back to life
Sat Aug 27, 2022 10:24 am

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VBA1T
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Sat Aug 27, 2022 10:24 am linkquote
FINYoshi wrote:
There will be times when you notice "oh, I will need a new part X before I can continue with assembly".
That happened already too many times, I get used to it 😁
Sat Aug 27, 2022 10:40 am

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Sat Aug 27, 2022 10:40 am linkquote
qascooter wrote:
Welcome to MV Colin! I think your English is excellent.

It looks like a fun project. Since the engine is on the bench, I'd split the cases and put in new seals and bearings, and maybe even a different crank. The LML crankshafts seem to have issues after 4k miles or so.

I'll be following along - and congratulations and good job on finding this close by and bringing another Vespa back to life
Thank you !

I already bought and oil seal + gasket kit but I didn't know about bearings and shaft !
I will need a serious tutoriel to change that ! Any shaft model to recommand ?
Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:46 pm

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Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:46 pm linkquote
ColinBelgium wrote:
Any shaft model to recommand ?
I have not replaced my crankshaft and have over 4,000 miles, so probably soon

Others here may have recommendations.
Sun Aug 28, 2022 12:08 am

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VBA1T
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Sun Aug 28, 2022 12:08 am linkquote
Actually I'm a bit surprised, and a bit confused ! I did not expect to have to change theses parts for a new engine. Of course as the engine is on the bench I will change this parts, I may need your help for that operation, but I have to admit I was already a bit fed up with indian shit (Indian vintage Royal Enfield bikes).

Or I could sell the engine and buy a PX engine, even broken as I'll have to crack it open for maintenance anyway...

I should have made more research before buying, but that was the deal anyway, body+engine in 1 lot.
Sun Aug 28, 2022 5:04 am

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VNB vsc o9c VMA vbc VSX
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Sun Aug 28, 2022 5:04 am linkquote
Right on! Welcome.
Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:44 am

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VBA1T
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Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:44 am linkquote
I need a little bit of help !

The body shop has painted the undersides of the chassis ! It is great, but... He has sealed the exit holes for the cables under body filler and seam sealer on places he had to treat because of rust/welding spots...







Does someone has a closeup picture of this holes ? A picture facing the holes to show him what it was looking like before ? That would help me much !
Thanks !
Mon Sep 19, 2022 9:47 am

Hooked
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Mon Sep 19, 2022 9:47 am linkquote
Here you go:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:17 am

Molto Verboso
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Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:17 am linkquote
Here's another



Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:29 am

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Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:29 am linkquote
Great ! Thank you very much guys
Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:43 am

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Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:43 am linkquote
While waiting for the body painted, I was cleaning the engine, it has been sitting for years, there is a kind of a dark orange oil to protect the surface (from what ?!) and dust has glued to it and it is a pity to wash off...

I then took the carb out to check that everything is in order, and it is, but I discovered some light rust on the crankshaft

The engine is brand new but has been sitting for about 7 years, never ran.

I called earlier the shop who sold the engine to the guy who sold it to me, asking him about the necessity of replacing the oil seals, his answer was no, run it as it is. I trust him as he owns a shop specialized in restoring classic vespas, so I was not planning to split the case.

I just discovered that, what do you think ?



Is it that bad ?
Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:56 am

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Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:56 am linkquote
Not bad in my opinion. I'm more worried about the old indian oil seals. You should do a pressure test on the engine to see if there are leaks through the seals.

Or just run it if it works and rebuild if does not. Or rebuild after it breaks down.
Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:05 am

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Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:05 am linkquote
FINYoshi wrote:
Not bad in my opinion.....Or just run it if it works and rebuild if does not. Or rebuild after it breaks down.
This is what is do.
Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:07 am

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Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:07 am linkquote
Ok, I'm going to replace both oil sealers reachable from outside of the block, hope the internal one will hold. If problems later I will rebuilt everything.
Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:21 pm

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Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:21 pm linkquote
Good on ya. From what I can gather, though never having one, it seems to be open road / high speed use is when these cranks / crank bearings fail. If you are just going to potter around town then it'll probably be ok if the seals hold. If not I'd consider a decent crank & bearings and a moderate aftermarket aluminum 177 cylinder kit (e.g. Pinasco) and box exhaust (e.g. Sip Road 2).

Good luck with your project and happy scootering.
Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:01 am

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Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:01 am linkquote
FINYoshi wrote:
Not bad in my opinion. I'm more worried about the old indian oil seals. You should do a pressure test on the engine to see if there are leaks through the seals.

Or just run it if it works and rebuild if does not. Or rebuild after it breaks down.
I thought about pressure testing but it is not easy on the Lml cause it does not have an inlet manifold as the PX but a valve box (not sure on the name sorry, french inside ) It is going to be complicated to block air off from that side.

Any idea ?
Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:05 am

Hooked
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Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:05 am linkquote
Fab a plate to block off the reed valve opening and possibly put a barb on it to get pressure in.
Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:48 am

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Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:48 am linkquote
You can make a rubber gasket that sits between the reedblock and the airbox. You just need a flat sheet of rubber and use the old gasket as a pattern. Don't worry about sealing off the oiler drive gear for now, just seal thw intake port.

You can use the carb nuts to hold down the airbox tight enough.

Pressurizing through the exhaust stub is the simplest way I think and the spark plug will seal the head.

If you use a length of a narrow road bike tube (say 700x32) then you can stretch the tube over the stub and get a good seal. If you really want a more accurate test you can make a test gauge out of an old blood pressure cuff. I can send photos if you need but there are other posts here detailing the same process.

Last edited by whereshaldo on Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:53 am; edited 1 time in total
Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:50 am

Lucky
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Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:50 am linkquote
I put a piece of inner tube under the carb and torque to spec.
Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:56 am

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Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:56 am linkquote
Thanks for your suggestions, I did cut a block off plate from aluminum, I currently have no inner tube to use as a seal, I'll get a free used one tomorrow from a local bike shop (recycling !) to make a seal, and use as a hose to connect to the exhaust. I already have a blood pressure manifold as I work in a hospital I think 8 psi should do the trick.

Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:43 pm

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Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:43 pm linkquote
ColinBelgium wrote:
Thanks for your suggestions, I did cut a block off plate from aluminum, I currently have no inner tube to use as a seal, I'll get a free used one tomorrow from a local bike shop (recycling !) to make a seal, and use as a hose to connect to the exhaust. I already have a blood pressure manifold as I work in a hospital I think 8 psi should do the trick.


6 psi is plenty. Don't wanna push a seal outta place. You definitely won't at 6. Dunno about 8
Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:09 pm

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Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:09 pm linkquote
Looking great!

If you're not in a hurry… you should really replace the seals and bearings

7 years is a long time for water and air to get onto the metal.

The gearbox is exposed to air, so rust is likely to happen. Only a 1/3 of the gears will be dipped in oil.

My PX was parked for 3 weeks and I opened the cases and there was rust on the crank and gears.

Rubber seals harden if they don't get regular movement… they'll likely be hard.

Oh about 220mm hg is about 4.25 psi is more than enough for the pressure test!

I would keep the plate at the top, and have an adapter for the pressure tester that goes into the exhaust.

That way you can use different rubber hoses for different exhaust/intake manifold diameters.
Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:32 pm

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Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:32 pm linkquote
I think I pumped my smallie up to 2bar with hand pump when I pressure tested it
Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:34 am

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VBA1T
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Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:34 am linkquote
FINYoshi wrote:
I think I pumped my smallie up to 2bar with hand pump when I pressure tested it

I have a valve pressure leaking test that goes up to 140psi ! That may be a good thing to pop the seals out
Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:14 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
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Lucky
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Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:14 am linkquote
ColinBelgium wrote:

I have a valve pressure leaking test that goes up to 140psi ! That may be a good thing to pop the seals out
hah! the only downside of that (other than blowing out the seals) is that you won't get good precision down on the low end for an accurate measurement.
Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:46 am

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Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:46 am linkquote
I pressure tested the engine, I found a massive leak ! But not from the oil seals, from the spark plug !! The engine came with a no-name spark plug, even torqued at the right spec, it was leaking ! Just fitted a regular NGK spark plus and it was ok, oil seals are good. I'm going to replace both external ones anyway. I will use the engine as it is and will fully rebuilt/upgrade when the time comes.

The body is back, fully painted. It has been a long job of metal work, prep and paint. Good preparation, good result, no need to rush.

Even in the non seen areas















Even the non visible part of the tank is painted, I could have left the bottom part in etch primer, but no...



I wanted the aluminum part not painted, as I'll mirror polish this part and the one on the other side





I'll show later all the other parts but they are bubble packed and stored for now.

Now comes the difficult part, as I bought the body in pieces and have no clue how to assemble everything, I have the body and the engine ! I ordered a lot of parts from diagrams, I may (or not...) have everything. Now I need to study !

This is a first for me, 1st Vespa and zero experience on how to assemble, I'll start with the floor railing.

I'm stressed with the leg shield beading, as it is in aluminum (I didn't want the plastic one) in 1 piece. I have the rolling tool, but still... I've seen how to videos, doesn't look like esay and I absolutely don't want to scratch the paint.
Well, we'll see
Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:00 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
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Lucky
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Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:00 am linkquote
That paint looks great, and I LOVE the color!

The legshield crimping tool can definitely mess things up if you're not careful. Do some searching on here and you can learn our various techniques.

Did you the floor rails prior to painting? if not, masking tape and construction paper or heavy butcher paper will help you prevent scratching while you fit them.

For both of them, though, the time to have begun the installation process was prior to painting to get the initial fit when you weren't worried about scratches.
Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:23 am

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VBA1T
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Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:23 am linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
That paint looks great, and I LOVE the color!

The legshield crimping tool can definitely mess things up if you're not careful. Do some searching on here and you can learn our various techniques.

Did you the floor rails prior to painting? if not, masking tape and construction paper or heavy butcher paper will help you prevent scratching while you fit them.

For both of them, though, the time to have begun the installation process was prior to painting to get the initial fit when you weren't worried about scratches.
The floor has previously been removed and a new one has been soldered, but the job was not done the correct way and the body has been left around for years, probably been moved from one place to another without any care.

I have shaped the inside + center rails on each side and drilled the fitting holes (there was none, good for me) but concerning the outside ones, the floor was so bent and out of shape that the metal guy had to bang it to shape before I could drill and pre-fit the external rails otherwise it would have been a terrible mess. I didn't have time to go to the body shop and drill holes in between the metal work and the paint so i'll have to do that now.

Of course I'll protect the floor with masking tape while doing. I'm not going to rush that, I have time and I'm quite meticulous, that "should" be ok, even if that sounds like a pain in the butt !
Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:08 pm

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
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Lucky
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Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:08 pm linkquote
It sounds like you have a solid plan, which is really the most important thing.
Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:14 pm

Molto Verboso
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Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:14 pm linkquote
The floor rails seem to be a pain to fit any way you slice it even if your floor is original, but I think you'll be fine.

I would do the bearings, seals and crank. I had an LML crank fail at 4000 miles and cause a hard seize rolling off the throttle at 60 mph. I recently rebuilt a different LML engine and didn't even consider using the crank even though it looked fine. Statistically the failure rate is not all that high, but statistics go out the window when it happens to you just once. I used that crank to practice pressing bearings on and off. They are otherwise decent engines and a good base for even a tuned build once you deal with the known issues.
Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:12 pm

Molto Verboso
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Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:12 pm linkquote
That color is gorgeous. Similar to what I wanna do when I finally paint my bare metal VNA Allstate.

I didn't find the floor rails to be terrible the first time, shaping them anyways. Get the SIP rivet tool if you can. Makes quick work of peening the rivets.
Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:15 pm

Lucky
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Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:15 pm linkquote
You can build some crazy motors with that reeded LML cases. Once you progress to a real reed block and RD-350 reeds, the sky's the limit.
Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:56 pm

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Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:56 pm linkquote
Salut Colin !

Not much advices to give you, just following your rebuilt and from a French man to another, continue comme ca !

Love the color and congrats for getting into that restauration, I'm sure the end result will be top notch.
Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:07 pm

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Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:07 pm linkquote
FridayMatinee wrote:
That color is gorgeous. Similar to what I wanna do when I finally paint my bare metal VNA Allstate.

I didn't find the floor rails to be terrible the first time, shaping them anyways. Get the SIP rivet tool if you can. Makes quick work of peening the rivets.
Shaping the outside rails is easier on a new floor but mine is not perfectly straight, especially the transition to the front curve. I'm not skilled enough to be able to shape the rail to fix it exactly on the outside edge, there is a 1 to 2 mm gap from the edge.



Fixing holes are drilled



I have the rivet tool ! I need to practice first on scrap parts to make sure I won't do stupid things
Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:11 pm

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Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:11 pm linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
You can build some crazy motors with that reeded LML cases. Once you progress to a real reed block and RD-350 reeds, the sky's the limit.
I'm not looking for performance ! Reliability is more important. I will rebuilt the engine later, for now I will use it as it is, it won't be a problem to take it off and rebuilt, I'll need some tutorials tough !
Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:14 pm

Member
VBA1T
Joined: 22 Aug 2022
Posts: 23
Location: Belgium
 
Member
VBA1T
Joined: 22 Aug 2022
Posts: 23
Location: Belgium
Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:14 pm linkquote
Tibo27 wrote:
Salut Colin !

Not much advices to give you, just following your rebuilt and from a French man to another, continue comme ca !

Love the color and congrats for getting into that restauration, I'm sure the end result will be top notch.
Merci Tibo !

J'apprécie !
Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:26 am

Member
VBA1T
Joined: 22 Aug 2022
Posts: 23
Location: Belgium
 
Member
VBA1T
Joined: 22 Aug 2022
Posts: 23
Location: Belgium
Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:26 am linkquote
Haven't done much but something I think is valuable, I've seen few Vespa with cracks on the floorboard where bolts are going through to stand supports.

I decided to make reinforcing brackets in between holes. The holes on mine have been done by previous owner (he welded a new floorboard, long time ago...) but they are not straight and not at the same distance from right and left side !! (4mm gap).

Hopefully I saw that before paint and modified the stand supports in order to have a straight stand.

I had to offset the holes into the support to get a parallel support to the floorboard lines.

I made them from a 3mm thick steel plate from scrap, should be pretty solid.



Hope it will be efficient enough



Now I need to put the supports in primer + paint in light grey like alu rails or yellow. I should have ask to be bodyshop to weld them to the floor board before paint but I didn't think about it until I was 1 step closer to bolt the stand in place. I'll know for the next one ! I learn from mistakes...
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