Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:23 pm

Member
21 Racing 60s 95 Turbo RK
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Member
21 Racing 60s 95 Turbo RK
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Location: UMD
Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:23 pm linkquote
I get nervous seeing the torque specs on the Vespa fastners so I installed 12pt grade 12.9 fastners holding the wheels on and can torque to 30-32 ft lbs.

You guys move to higher strength bolts?

ARP fastners r your friend.
Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:29 pm

Addicted
2012 Genuine Stella 150 4T "Penultimate"
Joined: 15 Jan 2019
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Location: Texas
 
Addicted
2012 Genuine Stella 150 4T "Penultimate"
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Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:29 pm linkquote
Why spend the money?

There are tens of thousands of Vespas on the road and I don't recall "wheels falling off" as a common complaint. The OEM fasteners have stood the test of time.

Plus, the law of unintended consequences says that putting too strong of a fastener on, and torquing it higher than stock, will damage the thing it's attached to.

My .02. YMMV.
Sun Sep 18, 2022 3:37 pm

Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 11846
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
 
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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Posts: 11846
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Sun Sep 18, 2022 3:37 pm linkquote
congratulations on finding the solution to a problem that did not exist.

anyway, enjoy your stripped hub when you disassemble it in the future.
Sun Sep 18, 2022 3:42 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2013 Piaggio BV 350, 2014 Can Am Spyder RT
Joined: 02 Mar 2013
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Location: Madison, Wisconsin
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Sun Sep 18, 2022 3:42 pm linkquote


Hopefully you mean that, while the bolt would be fine if torqued to such high value, there's no need (obviously). The point is the extra safety measure you feel important by having very strong bolts holding your wheels on at OEM torque.

Otherwise, yeah, this is an oil thread just not about oil.
Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:12 pm

Hooked
2013 BV350, 2014 GTS , 2016 GTS, 2013 Downtown 300i
Joined: 03 Mar 2020
Posts: 314
Location: Dahlonega, GA
 
Hooked
2013 BV350, 2014 GTS , 2016 GTS, 2013 Downtown 300i
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Posts: 314
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Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:12 pm linkquote
They're much more likely to corrode solidly in place than fall out.
Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:43 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2009 GTV250 (Gone), 2003 Inder trailer, 2001 BMW R1100RT
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Location: Santa Cruz California
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2009 GTV250 (Gone), 2003 Inder trailer, 2001 BMW R1100RT
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Location: Santa Cruz California
Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:43 pm linkquote
25BIKEZ wrote:
Why spend the money?

There are tens of thousands of Vespas on the road and I don't recall "wheels falling off" as a common complaint. The OEM fasteners have stood the test of time.

Plus, the law of unintended consequences says that putting too strong of a fastener on, and torquing it higher than stock, will damage the thing it's attached to.

My .02. YMMV.
^^^this
Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:43 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2009 GTV250 (Gone), 2003 Inder trailer, 2001 BMW R1100RT
Joined: 24 Jun 2009
Posts: 5500
Location: Santa Cruz California
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2009 GTV250 (Gone), 2003 Inder trailer, 2001 BMW R1100RT
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Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:43 pm linkquote
greasy125 wrote:
congratulations on finding the solution to a problem that did not exist.

anyway, enjoy your stripped hub when you disassemble it in the future.
^^^ and this
Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:49 pm

Member
21 Racing 60s 95 Turbo RK
Joined: 29 Aug 2022
Posts: 38
Location: UMD
 
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21 Racing 60s 95 Turbo RK
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Location: UMD
Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:49 pm linkquote
If one uses lubricant on fastners the torque value needs to be adjusted by the lubricants rec coefficient reduction.

Having built hundreds of engines, transmissions, and rear differential, I will never and have never dry assembled anything. Lubricants are your friend. Just like ones, bolt stretch measuring equiptment.

Always use the strongest fastners available on stuff

The bolts on vespas and most most OEM parts are good/adequate, I perfer to use excellent.

Plus premium quality fastners are better appearing too.
Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:00 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
LX190 Friday afternoon special, Primavera, some pushbikes
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Posts: 8388
Location: Hermit Kingdom
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
LX190 Friday afternoon special, Primavera, some pushbikes
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Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:00 pm linkquote
Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:21 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2013 Piaggio BV 350, 2014 Can Am Spyder RT
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Location: Madison, Wisconsin
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2013 Piaggio BV 350, 2014 Can Am Spyder RT
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Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:21 pm linkquote
Louiesdad wrote:
If one uses lubricant on fastners the torque value needs to be adjusted by the lubricants rec coefficient reduction.

Having built hundreds of engines, transmissions, and rear differential, I will never and have never dry assembled anything. Lubricants are your friend. Just like ones, bolt stretch measuring equiptment.

Always use the strongest fastners available on stuff

The bolts on vespas and most most OEM parts are good/adequate, I perfer to use excellent.

Plus premium quality fastners are better appearing too.
So many contradictions, so many questions, so little time before I go to bed....
But, so I have something to read when I wake up, if "strongest fasteners available" is really your goal, how do you feel about torque-to-yield?
Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:51 pm

Hooked
GTS 300 hpe
Joined: 28 Sep 2019
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Location: NYC
 
Hooked
GTS 300 hpe
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Location: NYC
Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:51 pm linkquote
The torque specs do not only take the bolts into account, but as Greasy points out, also the wheels themselves. Are you changing those too so they too can withstand the torque? Anything fastened has two ends, no?
Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:19 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:19 pm linkquote
Add a bit of duct tape if you're worried.
Sun Sep 18, 2022 7:55 pm

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Sun Sep 18, 2022 7:55 pm linkquote
znomit wrote:
Add a bit of duct tape if you're worried.
Or self-sealing stem bolts...

Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:44 am

Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
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Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
 
Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:44 am linkquote
Ah yes, that "Bigger is always better" myth.
Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:43 am

Member
21 Racing 60s 95 Turbo RK
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Posts: 38
Location: UMD
 
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21 Racing 60s 95 Turbo RK
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Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:43 am linkquote
OEM components are the manufacturer's economic solutions to any given scenario.

There are ALWAYS alternatives that are declined because of cost.

An example is putting grey or steel appearing bolts connecting color coated wheels to a vechicle

Higher cost, color coordinated, higher strength, longer lasting etc components have always been relegated to the aftermarket.

Some people will settle for OEM, others seek improvement.
Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:00 am

Grumpy Biker
1980 Vespa P200e (sold), 2002 Vespa ET4 (sold), 1949 Harley-Davidson FL
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 4983
Location: Sparks, Nevada, USA
 
Grumpy Biker
1980 Vespa P200e (sold), 2002 Vespa ET4 (sold), 1949 Harley-Davidson FL
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 4983
Location: Sparks, Nevada, USA
Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:00 am linkquote
On my car, I use ARP head bolts and ARP wheel studs + forged lugs + forged wheels. But on a Vespa? Nah. Seems like I would just be spending money on a problem that doesn't exist. I've never heard anyone report a broken wheel stud on a Vespa.

I only use these products on my car because stretched head bolts can be a problem on cars running higher than stock boost and under track conditions, I have seen broken wheel studs. Both of these situations apply to my vehicle.
Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:35 am

Molto Verboso
GTV300 (wife's)
Joined: 08 Nov 2014
Posts: 1766
Location: Central New York
 
Molto Verboso
GTV300 (wife's)
Joined: 08 Nov 2014
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Location: Central New York
Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:35 am linkquote
giallo wrote:
The torque specs do not only take the bolts into account, but as Greasy points out, also the wheels themselves. Are you changing those too so they too can withstand the torque? Anything fastened has two ends, no?
I guess one would have to know if the part the bolt threads into has more strength than the threaded part of the bolt. I mean would using a 12.9 bolt that is threaded into cast aluminum actually give you any more of secure joint?

Now if you want to change from say an Allen head bolt to a 12 point bolt because you like the looks better that might be fine. But I would not change the torque to assemble the component just because the fastener might be capable of the higher torque.
Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:42 am

Molto Verboso
GTV300 (wife's)
Joined: 08 Nov 2014
Posts: 1766
Location: Central New York
 
Molto Verboso
GTV300 (wife's)
Joined: 08 Nov 2014
Posts: 1766
Location: Central New York
Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:42 am linkquote
znomit wrote:
Add a bit of duct tape if you're worried.
Or use a dab of yellow paint that covers the intersection of the head of the bolt and the wheel. That way if there is movement you will see the crack in the paint.

Or better yet how about lock wire them like airplanes and race cars?
https://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/to/safetywiretools.html
Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:45 am

Hooked
GTS 250
Joined: 26 Apr 2008
Posts: 336
Location: California
 
Hooked
GTS 250
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Posts: 336
Location: California
Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:45 am linkquote
This might upset some people...







Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:21 pm

Grumpy Biker
1980 Vespa P200e (sold), 2002 Vespa ET4 (sold), 1949 Harley-Davidson FL
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 4983
Location: Sparks, Nevada, USA
 
Grumpy Biker
1980 Vespa P200e (sold), 2002 Vespa ET4 (sold), 1949 Harley-Davidson FL
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 4983
Location: Sparks, Nevada, USA
Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:21 pm linkquote
^^^^ This is done for aesthetic reasons. I'm on board with that. When you're building a custom machine you do all sorts of things to get a certain "look" or improve the OEM look. I'll buy that. But I won't buy that the improved fasteners make the machine any safer (unless you are somehow putting it under a lot more stress).

By the way... the process of chroming hardware actually had a detrimental impact on it's strength. I try to always avoid chrome hardware for that reason. If I want something that looks flashy, I'd rather polish stainless hardware.
Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:59 pm

Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 11846
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
 
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 11846
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:59 pm linkquote
Louiesdad wrote:
OEM components are the manufacturer's economic solutions to any given scenario.

There are ALWAYS alternatives that are declined because of cost.

An example is putting grey or steel appearing bolts connecting color coated wheels to a vechicle

Higher cost, color coordinated, higher strength, longer lasting etc components have always been relegated to the aftermarket.

Some people will settle for OEM, others seek improvement.
gee, you could've just said: I like the way chrome 12-point bolts look instead of all that other blow-hard jibber-jabber.
Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:17 pm

Member
21 Racing 60s 95 Turbo RK
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Posts: 38
Location: UMD
 
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21 Racing 60s 95 Turbo RK
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Posts: 38
Location: UMD
Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:17 pm linkquote
greasy125 wrote:
gee, you could've just said: I like the way chrome 12-point bolts look instead of all that other blow-hard jibber-jabber.
This is an example of why I now and never did pay much attention to seargents.

I chose to use ARP polished 12pt ss fastners and coated mating surfaces of wheels with anti seize.

The steel/ aluminum will survive and prosper under ARP rec torque loads.

I even threw the pos gas cap out and use one from a 946 because it is heavier duty. flame away children


PS.
THAT POLISHED CHROME MODDED MOTOR LOOKS GREAT.
Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:26 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
LX190 Friday afternoon special, Primavera, some pushbikes
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Posts: 8388
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
LX190 Friday afternoon special, Primavera, some pushbikes
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Posts: 8388
Location: Hermit Kingdom
Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:26 pm linkquote
That chrome motor is hot.

Because shiny stuff doesn't dissipate heat so well.
Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:41 pm

Hooked
GTS 250
Joined: 26 Apr 2008
Posts: 336
Location: California
 
Hooked
GTS 250
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Location: California
Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:41 pm linkquote
Some more in-progress shots.









Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:45 pm

Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 11846
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
 
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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Posts: 11846
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:45 pm linkquote
AnnDee4444 wrote:
Some more in-progress shots.
that's sharp looking! the attention to detail is impressive!
Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:17 pm

Ossessionato
2015 GTS 300 Super (Melody: 2015-2021, RIP) 2022 GTS SuperTech (Thelonica)
Joined: 22 Apr 2015
Posts: 3674
Location: Asbury Park, NJ
 
Ossessionato
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Posts: 3674
Location: Asbury Park, NJ
Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:17 pm linkquote
In terms of this thread, my take is: the perfect is the enemy of the good.

In regard to AnnDee4444: play on, friend, that thing's a knockout. And probably worthy of aftermarket bolts in numerous places.
Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:32 pm

Ossessionato
2019 Supertech (EURO3/APAC)
Joined: 17 Nov 2020
Posts: 2064
Location: Batmania aka Melbourne, Australia
 
Ossessionato
2019 Supertech (EURO3/APAC)
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Posts: 2064
Location: Batmania aka Melbourne, Australia
Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:32 pm linkquote
AnnDee4444 wrote:
Some more in-progress shots.
Not sure what you're doing with the rocker cover breather ...
Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:45 pm

Hooked
GTS 250
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Posts: 336
Location: California
 
Hooked
GTS 250
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Posts: 336
Location: California
Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:45 pm linkquote
steelbytes wrote:
Not sure what you're doing with the rocker cover breather ...
Just venting to atmosphere for now. That's just the OEM hose with a filter on the end.

I'd like to rig-up a proper PCV, but don't really want to use the OEM intake box. Any ideas?
Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:14 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2013 Piaggio BV 350, 2014 Can Am Spyder RT
Joined: 02 Mar 2013
Posts: 7050
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:14 pm linkquote
AnnDee4444 wrote:
Just venting to atmosphere for now. That's just the OEM hose with a filter on the end.

I'd like to rig-up a proper PCV, but don't really want to use the OEM intake box. Any ideas?
Couldn't you plumb it into a "T" in the intake hose, downstream of the filter?
Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:30 pm

Hooked
GTS 250
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Posts: 336
Location: California
 
Hooked
GTS 250
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Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:30 pm linkquote
Madison Sully wrote:
Couldn't you plumb it into a "T" in the intake hose, downstream of the filter?
Yes, but I'd really rather have some sort of air/oil separator.

You know how the stock intake "bulbs" fills with oil? Dumping that into the intake isn't ideal.
Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:31 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
GT 2.4
Joined: 04 Feb 2013
Posts: 7665
Location: NWAOK
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
GT 2.4
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Posts: 7665
Location: NWAOK
Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:31 pm linkquote
Louiesdad wrote:
OEM components are the manufacturer's economic solutions to any given scenario.

There are ALWAYS alternatives that are declined because of cost.

An example is putting grey or steel appearing bolts connecting color coated wheels to a vechicle

Higher cost, color coordinated, higher strength, longer lasting etc components have always been relegated to the aftermarket.

Some people will settle for OEM, others seek improvement.
Agree. i think a good place to replace the stock fasteners with 12.9 allens would be the two bolts that hold the swingarm to the engine or the bolts that hold the exhaust to the 50-150. Those snap off frequently.
Mon Sep 19, 2022 9:10 pm

Ossessionato
2019 Supertech (EURO3/APAC)
Joined: 17 Nov 2020
Posts: 2064
Location: Batmania aka Melbourne, Australia
 
Ossessionato
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Joined: 17 Nov 2020
Posts: 2064
Location: Batmania aka Melbourne, Australia
Mon Sep 19, 2022 9:10 pm linkquote
AnnDee4444 wrote:
Yes, but I'd really rather have some sort of air/oil separator.
It's on my list of projects to do. Just haven't yet worked out a good mounting place
Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:13 am

Hooked
GTS 250
Joined: 26 Apr 2008
Posts: 336
Location: California
 
Hooked
GTS 250
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Posts: 336
Location: California
Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:13 am linkquote
Motovista wrote:
Agree. i think a good place to replace the stock fasteners with 12.9 allens would be the two bolts that hold the swingarm to the engine or the bolts that hold the exhaust to the 50-150. Those snap off frequently.
My obsession started when I snapped an exhaust stud. I figured out that it was due to the OEM nut size combined with the PM tuning exhaust... the tightened nut would spread the studs apart and eventually broke (~5000 miles).

I found that the ARP nuts were smaller in diameter and allowed the clearance needed. Also they're a little bit easier to get started when the motor is in the bike.



Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:31 pm

Member
21 Racing 60s 95 Turbo RK
Joined: 29 Aug 2022
Posts: 38
Location: UMD
 
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21 Racing 60s 95 Turbo RK
Joined: 29 Aug 2022
Posts: 38
Location: UMD
Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:31 pm linkquote
Smaller size, stronger STRENGTH, and spline heads are what got me buying ARP.

Their use on connecting rod bolts minimized the amount of material needing to be removed from the 331 354 392 blocks to use longer stroke cranks.
Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:28 pm

Hooked
bv350, Brutale 910
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Posts: 491
Location: LA CA
 
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Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:28 pm linkquote
Louiesdad wrote:
Lubricants are your friend.
twss
Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:08 am

Member
21 Racing 60s 95 Turbo RK
Joined: 29 Aug 2022
Posts: 38
Location: UMD
 
Member
21 Racing 60s 95 Turbo RK
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Location: UMD
Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:08 am linkquote
ARP part nos that replace factory wheel bolts;
Complete kit all 5 fastners w washers;

Polished stainless steel w washers 771-1005

Black chrome moly w washers 671-1005

I use ss front cm rear.

Both MUCH stronger, both polished finish, WITH anti rust surfaces.
Torque to 24 ft lbs

Very nice upgrade to the appearance of front wheels and over grade 5 factory stuff

Ebay Amazon carry all
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