Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:31 am

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Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:31 am linkquote
Kawasaki has announced it has signed an agreement with Toyota to pool resources and work on the development of hydrogen engines for future motorcycles.

https://www.visordown.com/news/industry/kawasaki-partners-toyota-major-hydrogen-engine-development-deal
Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:30 am

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Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:30 am linkquote
While clean burning, hydrogen requires a lot of energy to extract. It's also very dirty to produce, and is not very energy dense, requiring large, heavy, high pressure storage vessels. Toyota has been at it for 30 years with little to show except a couple of niche vehicles.
Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:01 pm

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Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:01 pm linkquote
25BIKEZ wrote:
While clean burning, hydrogen requires a lot of energy to extract. It's also very dirty to produce, and is not very energy dense, requiring large, heavy, high pressure storage vessels. Toyota has been at it for 30 years with little to show except a couple of niche vehicles.
To extract hydrogen much energy is needed, but it's entirely feasible to do that with renewable energy. In the future it will likely be done just like that.

Car manufacturers tried their hand at electric vehicles for over a hundred years. So what? Breakthroughs have been made and now electric vehicles are capable and are approaching affordability. The same is likely to happen with hydrogen.

The cars just work fine. The Toyota Mirai set a world record of driving 1,360 km (845 mi) with a tank of less than 6 kg (13 pounds) hydrogen. How does that compare to the mileage per tank of your average car and how much does the fuel on your average motorcycle weigh? We likely won't continue to be on a fossil fuel bender and hydrogen i might be a viable alternative. I rather ride an hydrogen internal combustion PTW than anything electric. Not that I dislike electric vehicles, I own a hybrid car, but sitting on what amounts to potentially thousands of explosions per minute, sounds way more exciting to me.
Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:19 pm

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Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:19 pm linkquote
giallo wrote:
To extract hydrogen much energy is needed, but it's entirely feasible to do that with renewable energy. In the future it will likely be done just like that.

Car manufacturers tried their hand at electric vehicles for over a hundred years. So what? Breakthroughs have been made and now electric vehicles are capable and are approaching affordability. The same is likely to happen with hydrogen.

The cars just work fine. The Toyota Mirai set a world record of driving 1,360 km (845 mi) with a tank of less than 6 kg (13 pounds) hydrogen. How does that compare to the mileage per tank of your average car and how much does the fuel on your average motorcycle weigh? We likely won't continue to be on a fossil fuel bender and hydrogen i might be a viable alternative. I rather ride an hydrogen internal combustion PTW than anything electric. Not that I dislike electric vehicles, I own a hybrid car, but sitting on what amounts to potentially thousands of explosions per minute, sounds way more exciting to me.
Not exactly. The Mirai has two tanks, holding 122 liters (30 gallons) of hydrogen, which weighs 5kg, , at 10,000psi. The empty tanks weigh 193 pounds. Doing the math, 845 miles at 30 gallons is 28.8mpg.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwifp6ienKf6AhU0nGoFHaOLDKoQFnoECAcQAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FToyota_Mirai&usg=AOvVaw3J57WpNEsmBkJ5dSGd4sPw[url][/url]
Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:53 am

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Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:53 am linkquote
25BIKEZ wrote:
Not exactly. The Mirai has two tanks, holding 122 liters (30 gallons) of hydrogen, which weighs 5kg, , at 10,000psi. The empty tanks weigh 193 pounds. Doing the math, 845 miles at 30 gallons is 28.8mpg.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwifp6ienKf6AhU0nGoFHaOLDKoQFnoECAcQAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FToyota_Mirai&usg=AOvVaw3J57WpNEsmBkJ5dSGd4sPw[url][/url]
Lol - This math appears to make little sense unless you want to use it to disparage a technology. The fact that even motorcycle companies such as Kawasaki are getting into hydrogen vehicular technology development tells us that common math provides them with an entirely different story.

Your sentiments aside, hydrogen is a cleaner alternative to carbon fuels and a growing number of scientists and vehicle manufacturers believe that it is a very efficient alternative to carbon fuel and battery powered cars.

There's also a long and growing list of car, truck and motorcycle manufacturers working on the development of hydrogen technology.

We are not going to run out of hydrogen ever, whereas we likely will run out of some of the raw materials for other technologies at some point in the future and then there's the pollution factor. Another benefit of hydrogen powered vehicles is that we can turn an ICE motor into one fueled by hydrogen.
Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:06 pm

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Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:06 pm linkquote
Hydrogen is the future, batteries aren't (well, not for vehicles) IMO.

The whole electrification thing is a bit of a red herring if you ask me - the weight of electric vehicles is way higher than their combustion equivalents. We all know that weight is a big fuel economy killer (regardless of the fuel). Realistically, vehicles need to get a lot lighter in construction. Not sure how battery technology will fair in that regard.

Furthermore, the elements being used to construct current batteries aren't limitless in abundance.

They do offer a reduction in emissions - in the sense that emissions are controlled at the source of electricity production. Power stations will have emissions and waste restrictions and are constantly monitored. No chance of drivers removing their catalysts and modifying their vehicles to become loud and stinky machines... no methanol injection for turbo heads... no oil or smoke when they start to get old. So in some respects, they do offer benefit. 👍

Of course, if electrification continues, there might be an interim period where combustion vehicles become a sign of poverty... and electric vehicles a sign of affluence. In residential neighbourhoods where people can afford new electric vehicles, there will be less air and noise pollution... development and life expectancy could well improve. In others, where people can't afford them, they will be subject to the same noise and air pollution. Currently, in deprived areas, we already see a reduction in development, health and life expectancy. I guess we'll see how this pans out. 🤞

Let's say that everyone can afford an electric car - in areas where only the more affluent can afford houses with garages and driveways, there will in the very least be some disparity with convenience, and the cost of running electric vehicles. Think of areas where cars line up the streets and pavements - I guess those people will have to pay a premium to use a charging station. 😉

I'm all for Hydrogen (green hydrogen). It has zero emissions. It requires no mining. A good storage solution for wind/solar power. Pass that hydrogen over a catalyst (in the presence if oxygen) and you get electricity back. 👍

For other vehicles (such as those used in construction), they can be fitted with combustion engines that use hydrogen.

Gas boilers (which currently use natural gas) can be replaced with boilers that use hydrogen. Some boilers are already on sale that are hydrogen ready (ie will run on natural gas, and a small modification allows them to use hydrogen). We successfully made the switch from coal gas to natural gas way back... and we can do the same from natural gas to hydrogen.

Whilst everyone's running around figuring out battery technology it's good to know at at least a few are developing a hydrogen proposal.🤞🤞
Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:49 pm

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Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:49 pm linkquote
OscarSass wrote:
... Power stations will have emissions and waste restrictions and are constantly monitored

...Think of areas where cars line up the streets and pavements - I guess those people will have to pay a premium to use a charging station. 😉
not really sure why people keep mentioning dirty power stations ... there's such a rapid shift from coal & gas power stations to solar and wind and renewables that this is really only a relatively short term issue.

as to charging without a garage etc, the solution for this that is currently being developed and tested is wireless charging like some smart phones use today (well, the better ones anyway).

but I do like the idea of eHydrogen (also known as green hyddrogen) ideally combined with a fuel cell. Or at least other eFuels (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrofuel)
Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:38 pm

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Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:38 pm linkquote
Hydrogen vehicles are a waste of time.

I have a solution but no one wants to hear it.
Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:59 pm

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Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:59 pm linkquote
Bill Dog wrote:
Hydrogen vehicles are a waste of time.

I have a solution but no one wants to hear it.
Is it a long term solution?
Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:02 pm

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Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:02 pm linkquote
God yes. It cuts emissions, consumption and power use by roughly half.

It also means a more sustainable future.
Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:49 am

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Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:49 am linkquote
steelbytes wrote:
not really sure why people keep mentioning dirty power stations ... there's such a rapid shift from coal & gas power stations to solar and wind and renewables that this is really only a relatively short term issue.

as to charging without a garage etc, the solution for this that is currently being developed and tested is wireless charging like some smart phones use today (well, the better ones anyway).

but I do like the idea of eHydrogen (also known as green hyddrogen) ideally combined with a fuel cell. Or at least other eFuels (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrofuel)
Well - it it werent for electrification of vehicles, renewables may have made a dent.

Not sure how accurate the figure is, but it's estimated electric consumption is increasing faster than renewable energy growth. That's before mass electrification of vehicles (we're currently in early adoption globally) so there's a heck of a lot of catching up to do.🤞

Global events aren't helping either - so we may see the return of coal in places. Japan are already considering re-comissioning their nuclear power stations (having shut them down after the Fukushima incident) so that they don't rely on LNG, which frees up supply for other nations.

Renewable energy adoption isn't quick enough to keep up with increases in demand (so far). It doesn't mean we should give up.
Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:51 am

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Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:51 am linkquote
Bill Dog wrote:
God yes. It cuts emissions, consumption and power use by roughly half.

It also means a more sustainable future.
Well, yes... if we halve the global population we decrease demand by half. 🤣

Not sure I'd want to be responsible for that decision though.
Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:45 pm

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Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:45 pm linkquote
You're not far off.

Why not just have less people and nip the consumption in the bud ?

Why not have 1 child as opposed to 5 and then there will be more food, oil and power for the rest of us and the ( less) people to come ?

As opposed to looking for ways to cut the emissions why not just make less emissions made by less of us ?

It will cost way less as many infrastructures will shrink and by default cars will be smaller as you won't need a tank to take your many kids to school.

You take care of your own pension and not rely on the next brood to pay for it and in time things will adjust to something more sustainable.

It makes sense doesn't it.
Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:39 am

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Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:39 am linkquote
Bill Dog wrote:
Why not just have less people and nip the consumption in the bud ?

Why not have 1 child as opposed to 5 and then there will be more food, oil and power for the rest of us and the ( less) people to come ?
I suggest you think of a new plan as although your logic ain't bad, you do know that'll never happen.

Hence we might as well put our effort into renewables and efficiency.
Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:22 am

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Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:22 am linkquote
Oh I totally agree as the instinct to reproduce will trump any kind of social responsibility to save the planet so in an attempt to reign in the damage we have a green agenda.

We can't seem to stop ourselves even when our children's future is being threatened so rather than being responsible we're bullshitting ourselves into doing the right thing by searching for green alternatives that aren't green at all.

It's a bit like putting a catalytic converter on a bucket of naplam when you create batteries to replace internal combustion engines as you're making the same amount of carbon.

The new electric Hummer weighs 4 tonnes. it's all battery weight and it's supposed to be green.

Why not just restrict the amount of children you can have and the size of vehicle you own, for the greater good ?
Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:24 pm

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Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:24 pm linkquote
Bill Dog wrote:
Oh I totally agree as the instinct to reproduce will trump any kind of social responsibility to save the planet so in an attempt to reign in the damage we have a green agenda.

We can't seem to stop ourselves even when our children's future is being threatened so rather than being responsible we're bullshitting ourselves into doing the right thing by searching for green alternatives that aren't green at all.

It's a bit like putting a catalytic converter on a bucket of naplam when you create batteries to replace internal combustion engines as you're making the same amount of carbon.

The new electric Hummer weighs 4 tonnes. it's all battery weight and it's supposed to be green.

Why not just restrict the amount of children you can have and the size of vehicle you own, for the greater good ?
Most certainly agree RE the Hummer. Cue someone working out the real CO2 emissions of that thing. It's electric... but energy doesn't come out of thin air.

I think the issue is that current economics is possibly based on an ever growing population. In nations where there is depopulation, they look for ways to allow for immigration in certain sectors that matter at the time (be it doctors, dentists, nurses, cleaners, IT workers, warehouse staff, etc). This is for economic growth.

If it turns out that economies do indeed rely on an increasing population (and theres no way around it), there may not be an incentive to counter that. Who knows - that stuff is too complicated for my poor brain.
Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:40 pm

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Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:40 pm linkquote
Life is one big ponzi scheme. Just don't tell my kids that.
Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:40 pm

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Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:40 pm linkquote
What happens to the societies that have lost their Medical Staff to more developed countries ?

You could argue that a Third World Country needs these individuals for more than the developed ones.
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