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I don't know the answer to that one, but someone surely will. Good eye. It's good you notice those details. Some don't matter. Some most certainly do. I think that one probably does. It's better to find out by asking. Did you remember the washer under the larger gear?
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Others can comment - I'm not a self oiler experienced guy.
However - if you need to adjust the crank - you can devise a pushing tool from your puller. ( I assume you have a crank pulling tool?)

I have an old clutch cover, I've Dremeled the center out of - and I use a giant washer and the crank tool to push the crank when I need to re-center it.
With a little experimenting - you can make a pushing set up.
Good thing to have.
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orwell84 wrote:
I don't know the answer to that one, but someone surely will. Good eye. It's good you notice those details. Some don't matter. Some most certainly do. I think that one probably does. It's better to find out by asking. Did you remember the washer under the larger gear?
Thanks, Orwell. Yeah, I've got the little washer behind the oil pump gear. My feeling is that if I continue with the install of the clutch, it'll be too far out, and since the clutch cover isn't going anywhere, it might cause it to partially disengage the clutch without pulling the lever...wish I would have thought to use these two gears as an indicator of how far to pull the crank in in the first place but...would rather fix it now if it's gonna be a problem.
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charlieman22 wrote:
Others can comment - I'm not a self oiler experienced guy.
However - if you need to adjust the crank - you can devise a pushing tool from your puller. ( I assume you have a crank pulling tool?)

I have an old clutch cover, I've Dremeled the center out of - and I use a giant washer and the crank tool to push the crank when I need to re-center it.
With a little experimenting - you can make a pushing set up.
Good thing to have.
Thanks CM2. Yeah if you scroll back in my thread I made what I affectionately call "the dumb wood thing" that basically goes on in place of the clutch cover with a hole in the middle. That's how I installed my crank. I tried today actually pulling from the flywheel side to maybe center it (again with my "dumb wood thing") but the adapter on the puller snapped right off! I think it was defective (I'm going to see if they can send me another adapter) but...I bet I can turn my puller into a pusher if I think about it...thanks for the suggestion.
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Well, trying to tap the crank more towards center didn't work. I even tried using the puller on the flywheel side to slide it over. It ain't budging. So, I'm going to open up the cases again, replace the bearings on the crank, and try again.

Does anyone have any guidance or documentation on exactly how far the crank should be pulled into the clutch side? I can use the oil gear as guide, and now that I've done it too far, I have a pretty good idea of when to stop the next time, but...I really don't want to end up doing this a 3rd time.
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Before you pull it all apart…I would remove the fly side case half and try your pushing tool from the clutch side to see if you can get the crank and oil gear oriented correctly. Then see if you can close the cases normally. You want to make sure that your theory that the crank is pulled in too far is correct. It may very well be. It would really suck to go through all that and end up with the same problem.
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I think he's now dealing with the fact that the oil pump gear/thrust washer is extending 1mm too far toward the clutch because the bearing isn't properly seated.

BrokenRobot, post some updated pictures to confirm we're all solving the same problem.
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Didn't you say the crank felt like it was binding a bit? You should be able to turn it with your fingers.

Put a couple of nuts on the clutch side to protect the threads and give it some *gentle* taps with a soft metal hammer. Looks like it only needs to move about a millimeter.

Robot does this - without nuts - at 36:00.

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… as for "exactly" how far it should be pulled in, take a look at the inlet opening. When the crank's in place, it should close off the inlet without any visible gaps.
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orwell84 wrote:
Before you pull it all apart…I would remove the fly side case half and try your pushing tool from the clutch side to see if you can get the crank and oil gear oriented correctly. Then see if you can close the cases normally. You want to make sure that your theory that the crank is pulled in too far is correct. It may very well be. It would really suck to go through all that and end up with the same problem.
Yeah that was going to be my plan. Take the fly side case off, remove the crank , replace the bearings, and install it again. But I like your idea once the case is apart again I might be able to slide it over the little bit that I need. I just didn't know how much of a beating the bearings take seating and unseating in the cases so I thought maybe I should replace them. But maybe I'm over thinking it and they're fine.
chandlerman wrote:
I think he's now dealing with the fact that the oil pump gear/thrust washer is extending 1mm too far toward the clutch because the bearing isn't properly seated.

BrokenRobot, post some updated pictures to confirm we're all solving the same problem.
Will do tonight after work! I drifted the bearings on the crank before install and I'm almost positive they were seated all the way. But I'll take the fly side off again and get more pics.
SoCalGuy wrote:
Didn't you say the crank felt like it was binding a bit? You should be able to turn it with your fingers.

Put a couple of nuts on the clutch side to protect the threads and give it some *gentle* taps with a soft metal hammer. Looks like it only needs to move about a millimeter.

Robot does this - without nuts - at 36:00.


… as for "exactly" how far it should be pulled in, take a look at the inlet opening. When the crank's in place, it should close off the inlet without any visible gaps.
Thanks, SoCal. Yeah I tried to do what Robot does in the video and it doesn't budge at all. I can turn it with my hands if I get a good grip on it, but not with my fingertips. Robot seems to mention there is a tiny bit of left/right free play, where mine has zero. It does seem to turn ok though.

And thanks for the inlet tip. When I did this the first time, I thought I had it in all the way, then noticed the web wasn't completely converting the inlet, so I went a little more. I think "a little more" ended up being too much. I think if it just covers the inlet, it'll be about right. Hopefully…
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SoCalGuy wrote:
… as for "exactly" how far it should be pulled in, take a look at the inlet opening. When the crank's in place, it should close off the inlet without any visible gaps.
Thinking out loud here, SoCal:
Support/shim the webs and get a little more aggressive on the taps?
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Ray8 wrote:
Thinking out loud here, SoCal:
Support/shim the webs and get a little more aggressive on the taps?
I like this idea. I'd probably put a wrench in to shim it and give it a few love taps and see where I'm at.

another possibility, how about just loosening the fly side a little. give it a few taps and then run it back down and see if maybe that might set it.

the one good thing about splitting the case again, is that you'd know for sure if the bearings were seated to the crank properly. but hopefully you can just make it happen without opening it all up again.
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Well, when I f*ck something up, I like to f*ck it up properly so I went ahead and split the cases again. The crank stuck in the flyside when they came apart, which I thought was odd since that's the side I was heating with the gun to try and tap the halves apart.

The good news, I think, is that the bearings stayed on the crank. The flyside bearing looks like it could be seated a tiny bit more, but this could have happened when I was tapping it out of the case it was stuck in (I put a nut on the end and "persuaded" it with a rubber mallet). I can try and drift it on a bit more before I restart this process.

The bearings spin nicely still, and the crank seems to still be true (I looked at it with the dial gauge again and the web the against the pad and the clutch end were within .001" and the very end of the flyside was within .002" so I'm calling it good).

My questions are:

- Do my bearings look seated?
- Do you think I've done any damage to the bearings and seals with the installing/uninstalling? From what I can tell the seals look fine and the bearings seem to spin ok. Brass bushings in the case also seem fine.
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flyside looks a little wide, bet that's where you'll find the CH you're looking for.

what's the gap measure?
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greasy125 wrote:
flyside looks a little wide, bet that's where you'll find the CH you're looking for.

what's the gap measure?
Fly side is ~0.78mm and clutch side is ~0.60mm. I'm leaning toward tapping the fly side on more and rolling with it…?
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I tried tapping the bearing on more on the fly side and it's bottomed out. Didn't really move. ~0.60mm clutch side and ~0.78mm fly side (feeler gauge between the bearing and the web). Is this acceptable? I cleaned the old gasket off the joining surfaces and I'm itching to get this thing back together so greased parts and seals don't sit around collecting dust any longer than necessary. Speak now or forever hold your peace! Laughing emoticon (Please and thank you!)
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I guess at this point I would try installing the crank into the clutch side of the case and rechecking how the oil gear sits now and that the bearing is fully bottomed out in the case.

If you are ending up with the same problem, give it a think and ask questions before closing up.
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orwell84 wrote:
I guess at this point I would try installing the crank into the clutch side of the case and rechecking how the oil gear sits now and that the bearing is fully bottomed out in the case.

If you are ending up with the same problem, give it a think and ask questions before closing up.
I like this plan. I also thought to remount the old bearings on the old crank and see those gaps. While not exactly the same, the fly side also has a slightly bigger gap on the old crank as well. Also, the distance across the crank to the outside of each bearing is actually ever so slightly less on the new crank, which makes me think that they are seated enough and should fit when the cases are closed. I'll get it in the clutch half later today and take some more pics.
Old
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For all intents and purposes, those measurements are the same, which is a good thing.
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just measured a crank I pulled from a 73~74 motor and I'm 63.3~63.6

both gaps measured at .510 (.6 was a no-go to the inner race)

not saying what is and isn't correct, just throwing out the numbers I've got sitting here as a comparison
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Appreciate it, Greasy. Seems like
I'm at least in the ballpark. I don't know how I could get the bearings on any more than they are. As you guys know, it's not like the P cranks where you have to leave a specific gap on the fly side, these just bottom out and when they can't go anymore, that's it…
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at this point, I'd say let it fly. try and split the difference on install and then hope for the best.
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I think this is the best I can do. Tiny amount of slack that I think will get taken up once the fly side is on and the gear is more lined up now. 🤷‍♂️

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If nothing is binding, I'd run with that.
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ship it!
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After I torqued everything up, we were back almost to where I started I think. Facepalm emoticon Maaaaybe picked up a couple hundredths. I decided to move forward and see if the clutch would bind. I had no issues getting the clutch cover on and torqued everything to spec. Here's a video of the clutch arm action. First little bit is super easy, then the full pull against the springs. I think this is in the realm of normal but any input is appreciated. I want to move on to new problems Laughing emoticon

Vespa clutch action
Fun fact, to hold the ruler and the flashlight, I had to hit the shutter with my nose.
Fun fact, to hold the ruler and the flashlight, I had to hit the shutter with my nose.
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question: is there a washer that goes behind the gear cog, bringing it up closer to flush with the drive washer?

also, be sure to install the washer the right way around. I'm fairly certain that the beveled side goes toward the bearing.
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greasy125 wrote:
question: is there a washer that goes behind the gear cog, bringing it up closer to flush with the drive washer?

also, be sure to install the washer the right way around. I'm fairly certain that the beveled side goes toward the bearing.
Yeah, I have the washer in place behind the gear cog. It's a pretty thin washer. And the slot (on the post) for the circlip for that cog was just showing, so I think that part is in the right place. I also tried the gear cog oriented both ways and it seemed to be the same. From what I remember, the ID on that gear has bevels on both sides.
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I think you'll be alright. Good for you for running it down. If something looks/feels funny finding out why is better than rolling the dice.
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Thanks, Orwell. I'm really trying to do everything correctly! I think I'll run it at this point and see how it goes. I can't think of what else I could adjust. Maybe everything will settle in to the right place after it runs for a bit (Wishful Thinking is one of my strengths Laughing emoticon)

At least I'll know where to start looking if I have clutch issues right out of the gate.
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You might have a P-series drive gear there(?).

Take another look at SoCal's pic earlier.
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Ray8 wrote:
You might have a P-series drive gear there(?).

Take another look at SoCal's pic earlier.
It's possible. I'm finding out this motor is more bodge than I initially thought. I'll look into it, thanks Ray.
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(Please hold all laughter until the end...)

In today's episode of FML, I broke a piston ring trying to get it off to measure the ring gap. Bonus - gap was totally fine based on the ring I did not break.

This led to the hunt for new rings...which resulted in realizing the piston is 60mm in diameter. A diameter that basically doesn't exist in stock form. With the help of one of our favorite reputable shops, the conclusion is the piston is of Indian origin and the top end isn't stock after all. Probably should have measured the piston before today. I'm ready to slap a DR 177 on it (so I don't have to port match anything) and call it a day, but I'm taking a cool down period to figure it out. And I will figure it out, Scooter God's be damned!

Serenity now, serenity now
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You could spend a little more and get a lot more from a VMC or BGM 177.

Give it some thought, especially since either of those would be a good step into tuning when you're ready to start making those moves, whereas the DR will never be that.
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brok3nr0b0t wrote:
(Please hold all laughter until the end...)

In today's episode of FML, I broke a piston ring trying to get it off to measure the ring gap. Bonus - gap was totally fine based on the ring I did not break.

This led to the hunt for new rings...which resulted in realizing the piston is 60mm in diameter. A diameter that basically doesn't exist in stock form. With the help of one of our favorite reputable shops, the conclusion is the piston is of Indian origin and the top end isn't stock after all. Probably should have measured the piston before today. I'm ready to slap a DR 177 on it (so I don't have to port match anything) and call it a day, but I'm taking a cool down period to figure it out. And I will figure it out, Scooter God's be damned!

Serenity now, serenity now
This is actual serendipity at work. Buy anything but a DR.
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brok3nr0b0t wrote:
...which resulted in realizing the piston is 60mm in diameter. A diameter that basically doesn't exist in stock form.
You have a 166 cylinder.

Low cost torque+ vs bodgery.
And a P oil drive gear there (not saying it is) wouldn't be bodgery either.

https://www.scooter-center.com/en/cylinder-oem-quality-166-cc-oe61mm-3-ports-vespa-px125-px150-gtr125-vnl2t-ts125-vnl3t-sprint150-veloce-vlb1t-0166001-7676515?number=7676515
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Ray8 wrote:
You have a 166 cylinder.

Low cost torque+ vs bodgery.
And a P oil drive gear there (not saying it is) wouldn't be bodgery either.

https://www.scooter-center.com/en/cylinder-oem-quality-166-cc-oe61mm-3-ports-vespa-px125-px150-gtr125-vnl2t-ts125-vnl3t-sprint150-veloce-vlb1t-0166001-7676515?number=7676515
You're right, I should have said "mystery" instead of "bodgery". I just meant that I can't assume that any component that I have should actually be there. But that's to be expected on a 50 year old scooter I suppose.

SW lists the oil gear for use on injected bikes from '73-'05, VBC through PX150…so I think the gear is the same throughout.
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honestly, I'd just order rings if you can. save the VMC or something else for down the road. otherwise it'll be the middle of June and this thing will still be in pieces.

don't worry about making it right or perfect, just make it run. a top end can always be added later quite easily.

if you forge ahead with a top end, splash the cash and go for anything but a DR

I have old (pre-p) and new (p) gears sitting around here, let me finish up my choring and I'll mic 'em up for ya.
OP
@brok3nr0b0t avatar
UTC

Hooked
'71 Sprint Veloce
Joined: UTC
Posts: 266
Location: SoCal
 
Hooked
@brok3nr0b0t avatar
'71 Sprint Veloce
Joined: UTC
Posts: 266
Location: SoCal
UTC quote
greasy125 wrote:
honestly, I'd just order rings if you can. save the VMC or something else for down the road. otherwise it'll be the middle of June and this thing will still be in pieces.

don't worry about making it right or perfect, just make it run. a top end can always be added later quite easily.

if you forge ahead with a top end, splash the cash and go for anything but a DR

I have old (pre-p) and new (p) gears sitting around here, let me finish up my choring and I'll mic 'em up for ya.
I was having a hard time finding just the rings, but thanks to Ray's link, looks like I could get a replacement piston that comes with rings and pin for about $40. If indeed it is the 61mm piston I have (my calipers are definitely not perfect). The design of the piston does look the same as the one I've got. Might be the way to go for now to get it running.
@orwell84 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2764
Location: northern New York
 
Ossessionato
@orwell84 avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2764
Location: northern New York
UTC quote
I have broken a couple rings and was really surprised. I have handled much more delicate, 3 piece VW rings and never broke one, but I seem to get ham handed with Vespas.
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