Tue Nov 22, 2022 2:16 pm

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 6790
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 6790
Location: Nashville
Tue Nov 22, 2022 2:16 pm linkquote
brok3nr0b0t wrote:
I'm very much in agreement with you. The bottom line is I *know* (and knew when I bought it) that it needs a rebuild, it was just seeing how long we could put it off and maybe ride it a bit. But I think the right thing to do is tear it all down, and build it back so I know what I've got.
This is good to hear. You can get away with doing just a motor rebuild and replacing the wiring harness. Replace the bearings and front brake shoes and you're good-to-go indefinitely.
brok3nr0b0t wrote:
I still have a ton to learn, but with YouTube, shop manuals and your all's willingness to continue to answer my noob questions, I think I can get there! Also, I like to go fast so…chandlerman I'll be looking to you for go-fast parts suggestions when the time comes!
Hah! You've come to the right place then. We'll have those around you wondering about your sanity, or at least your risk tolerances, in no time!

I have my SprintV's motor in my VBB and used that to go plaid, so you can definitely get plenty of go-fast out of a Sprint. It's a little over 17 HP and would push about 70 on 10's. The fundamental parts changes are a 24/24 carb, a BGM 177, a SIP Vape Sport ignition, a SIP Road exhaust (I forget if it's a Road 2.0 or XL right now), and a cut 60mm crank with a PX cone (so it can use PX ignitions). Past that, it's all just setting it up right.

I'd say get a successful rebuild under your belt and maybe even look for a second motor to use for tuning. Not everyone is a fan, but you can build a crazy-fast motor on top of reeded LML (Stella) cases.

Although as I'm now learning, smallies are where some of the craziest power is at, albeit with a different curve. Or a P200 motor...VMC245, I'm lookin' at you...
Tue Nov 22, 2022 2:58 pm

Enthusiast
'71 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 08 Sep 2022
Posts: 82
Location: SoCal
 
Enthusiast
'71 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 08 Sep 2022
Posts: 82
Location: SoCal
Tue Nov 22, 2022 2:58 pm linkquote
Dude, I've been following your small frame thread and it sounds awesomely terrifying! I just want plenty of grunt to get up and go with 55 mph traffic and to climb hills in my area with a passenger.

I think I'm going to go for a full rebuild…bearings, seals, o-rings, cush drive, etc. If I'm going to do it I might as well *do* it! I also think a fork conversion where I can have a disc up front would be killer. I've decided since it's only a Sprint (that's already not fully original) to just make a bad ass scoot. Staying true to the original as much as I can, but not being afraid of performance upgrades.

Once I start the tear down I'll start a build thread and take a bunch of pics so hopefully y'all can help me tell what I've got.
Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:02 am

Molto Verboso
Joined: 29 Nov 2020
Posts: 1127
Location: Los Angeles
 
Molto Verboso
Joined: 29 Nov 2020
Posts: 1127
Location: Los Angeles
Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:02 am linkquote
Your wires look to be in good shape.

"If I were you"

Do a leak test.
On-the-cheap shopping list to start:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000RWB03W/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01K7JFXAA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002IZHF08/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Holds air?
Print out the wiring diagram and go through the bike with a multimeter.
Test the switch before ordering the vape. You could add that to your order, along with the correct air filter.

Ride it. You'll learn a lot by just puttering around.
Can you keep up with stop and go traffic? It'll be a little peppier with the vape.
Will it pull 2 up your hills?
Experience the Walk of Shame with a stock bike. A kitted bike fail is not as fun.

Learn-up!
You should be semi-fluent in Vespa-related German and Italian before you tear anything apart. Next baby step would be a clutch rebuild if it's still frustrating you, which you can do in-frame by removing the wheel and dropping the shock end.
Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:21 am

Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 3284
Location: Florence, OR
 
Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 3284
Location: Florence, OR
Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:21 am linkquote
^^^^ this.

I'm with Ray on this. Pressure test the crankcase, and go from there. Ride and learn while riding. A few hours with a multimeter pays big dividends in understanding the wiring.

Dialing in a scooter takes time and knowledge. And it only gets dialed.in when it's running and you can experiment and experience the scooter.

I'm excited for your adventure
Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:05 am

Molto Verboso
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1308
Location: northern New York
 
Molto Verboso
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1308
Location: northern New York
Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:05 am linkquote
qascooter wrote:
^^^^ this.

I'm with Ray on this. Pressure test the crankcase, and go from there. Ride and learn while riding. A few hours with a multimeter pays big dividends in understanding the wiring.

Dialing in a scooter takes time and knowledge. And it only gets dialed.in when it's running and you can experiment and experience the scooter.

I'm excited for your adventure
That's for sure. Rebuilt my first engine and it was far from perfect. Wonky Stator plate and electrics were only resolved through longer rides and breaking down. Jetting has been as much about learning carburetor 101 as finding the right combo. Timings: learned how to measure them following recommendations but really understanding what the numbers mean will require lots of time on the butt dino. As it is now, it's not perfect but starts on the first kick, is fun to ride and gets me home again. I consider it a good start.
Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:19 pm

Enthusiast
'71 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 08 Sep 2022
Posts: 82
Location: SoCal
 
Enthusiast
'71 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 08 Sep 2022
Posts: 82
Location: SoCal
Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:19 pm linkquote
Bu…but…I wanna go stupid fast noooooow!

Thanks for the comments guys, I have officially slowed my roll, as they say. The new mantra is "one step at a time…*

New plan:

1. Build/buy compression tester. Ray, thanks for the head start.

***Assuming it passes or leaks can be easily fixed, then we'll do…***

2. Rebuild carb with new o-rings and gaskets (I'll have it off anyway for compression testing so might as well).

3. Order new jets and install, starting with Jack's recommendation.

4. Order new light/kill switch and see what we can get working, after continuity testing the wiring.

5. Order Vape and ask you guys a billion questions about installation. (I can solder. Kinda. Will need some refresher practice a bit.)

5. Ride.



*If case splitting becomes inevitable, OP can not legally be held responsible if go-fast bits are installed upon reassembly.
Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:36 pm

Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 12200
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
 
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 12200
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:36 pm linkquote
#5 if you do it, get a fresh harness and run it at the same time. no sense in trying to tie in to or hack what's there; especially when you don't know the condition of it.

but I'd chase the electrical for a bit before dropping that coin on a new EI kit.

leak testing is a great idea.
Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:06 pm

Style Maven
'74 50s x3 '78 P200 E '84 Cosa '91 PK50XL2 '58 AllState '68 Sprint '80 50special and a '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 8837
Location: seattle/athens
 
Style Maven
'74 50s x3 '78 P200 E '84 Cosa '91 PK50XL2 '58 AllState '68 Sprint '80 50special and a '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 8837
Location: seattle/athens
Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:06 pm linkquote
Quote:
My daughter and I are going to try to ride in the Hollywood Christmas parade at the end of the month (aka - lots of slow speed clutching) so I'm hoping I can get this sorted by then.
I'd use this as your immediate goal and try to knock out some of your bugs like the lights before you pull the motor and start taking stuff apart. You are getting good advice and I'll add a few things.

Get ray's list then you can pressure test so you know if you have a solid foundation.

You may as well check compression now too while it's easy - under 90 or 100 is cause for concern. I'd pop the head off just for fun to look in the cylinder and inspect for any signs of leakage at the head interface. Decoke head & piston as needed while you're in there.

Put in the proper jets as suggested. I'd pull the carb for a good cleaning now. How does it run? Go here if you need to: Mixture screw adjustment, got a good link?

About now I'd wanna check the ignition timing. If it looks good, it's now time for a butt dyno run.

Get after your clutch if you need to, is the inner cable frayed and catching somehow down at the business end?

Add a CHT gauge to your shopping list for cheap insurance.

I'd skip #4 & #5, may be unnecessary with all the rest for now.

You get the idea, now get on it, you ain't got much time!
Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:27 pm

Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 12200
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
 
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 12200
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:27 pm linkquote
^^^

very very solid advice. I'd take that route myself.
Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:43 pm

Enthusiast
'71 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 08 Sep 2022
Posts: 82
Location: SoCal
 
Enthusiast
'71 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 08 Sep 2022
Posts: 82
Location: SoCal
Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:43 pm linkquote
greasy125 wrote:
#5 if you do it, get a fresh harness and run it at the same time. no sense in trying to tie in to or hack what's there; especially when you don't know the condition of it.

but I'd chase the electrical for a bit before dropping that coin on a new EI kit.

leak testing is a great idea.
Yes, forgot that, duly noted!
V oodoo wrote:
brok3nr0b0t wrote:
My daughter and I are going to try to ride in the Hollywood Christmas parade at the end of the month (aka - lots of slow speed clutching) so I'm hoping I can get this sorted by then.
I'd use this as your immediate goal and try to knock out some of your bugs like the lights before you pull the motor and start taking stuff apart. You are getting good advice and I'll add a few things.

Unfortunately, I think I'm going to miss that goal. With Thanksgiving tomorrow and the parade on Sunday, I don't think I'll have the time or parts to get the bike in a good enough place to be a reliable enough runner for a parade. It's ok, we're going to shoot for a *really good* runner next year.

Today's question of the day is, where can I find a reliable source for torque values? I found this - https://beedspeed.com/pages/vespa-recommended-torque-settings - but will these be applicable to the Sprint? I have the Haynes blue book and even a lot of it's instructions are just "tighten this bolt"...

Thanks again everyone for being so welcoming and helpful. Excited to get it going! Hope everyone has a great Turkey Day!
Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:16 pm

Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 12200
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
 
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 12200
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:16 pm linkquote
not with that attitude you won't!

all kidding aside, if you're not all engines ahead full best to lay up and play it more at your speed.

but if you get a wild hair going, hit me up. I have all the clutch parts if you need 'em.
Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:15 pm

Enthusiast
'71 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 08 Sep 2022
Posts: 82
Location: SoCal
 
Enthusiast
'71 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 08 Sep 2022
Posts: 82
Location: SoCal
Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:15 pm linkquote
I don't quite have everything I need to do a proper leak down test just yet, but I did go by everyone's favorite discount tool shop and pick up their basic compression tester.

It's currently testing at 70 psi. (Cue sad trombone). When I did the test, I had the throttle wide open and kicked until the pressure gauge stopped increasing, which probably took 3 or 4 kicks but I gave it 10 for good measure. I also popped a little oil in the spark plug hole to see if that increased compression at all by helping to seal the rings. It made no difference. I also checked to make sure the head bolts were torqued to spec, which they were.

After the test, I put the plug back in and it started up on one kick, surprisingly. Idle seemed to be a little weak, but it would stay running and I putted up and down the street for a couple mins. I let it sit for about an hour and then I pulled the head to see what I could see. There is a little bit of scoring that I can see on the cylinder wall, but I'm not sure if that is more or less than normal. I can feel some of the grooves when I run my fingernail over them, however that circular groove just under the top of the cylinder is very smooth and I can't feel anything there.

Would love some expert opinions on what you see and what could be the cause of the low compression.




Can't tell if the bottom left there is dark because of a bad seal against the barrel or just water and gunk drains that way naturally...


Uno, due, tre!



Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:26 pm

Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 12200
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
 
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 12200
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:26 pm linkquote
what kind of compression tester?

it shouldn't start or even *TRY* and start at 70...

honestly for a old 3 port, with the carb and exhaust you've got that burn and barrel look fine.
Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:16 pm

Enthusiast
'71 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 08 Sep 2022
Posts: 82
Location: SoCal
 
Enthusiast
'71 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 08 Sep 2022
Posts: 82
Location: SoCal
Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:16 pm linkquote
greasy125 wrote:
what kind of compression tester?

it shouldn't start or even *TRY* and start at 70...

honestly for a old 3 port, with the carb and exhaust you've got that burn and barrel look fine.
Yeah I kinda thought starting should be harder/non-existent with compression that low too.

Tester is this bad boy - https://www.harborfreight.com/quick-connect-compression-tester-62622.html
Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:32 pm

Style Maven
'74 50s x3 '78 P200 E '84 Cosa '91 PK50XL2 '58 AllState '68 Sprint '80 50special and a '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 8837
Location: seattle/athens
 
Style Maven
'74 50s x3 '78 P200 E '84 Cosa '91 PK50XL2 '58 AllState '68 Sprint '80 50special and a '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 8837
Location: seattle/athens
Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:32 pm linkquote
The little time I had it here, the kickstarter resistance seemed 'normal' for an old 150, and it started pretty easy once it got used to fresh gas.

Yeah I agree, looks decent inside and I'm glad to see three ports in there too. Nice clean(synthetic 2T only) & clear burn pattern too. It looks like the head is sealing well. I'd be tempted to get a new set of rings and hone the barrel as long as you have it tore down this far. You can even do it without pulling motor out. How's the clutch behaving?
Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:49 pm

Enthusiast
'71 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 08 Sep 2022
Posts: 82
Location: SoCal
 
Enthusiast
'71 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 08 Sep 2022
Posts: 82
Location: SoCal
Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:49 pm linkquote
Thanks for looking, guys. After doing some additional reading about compression testing (https://www.klemmvintage.com/squish&comp.htm) I think maybe my compression tester isn't up to the task. I'm not quite ready to drop big coin on a quality one, so we'll just go with the fact that visually everything is looking pretty good. Below is a pic after I cleaned up the head and piston the best I could.

@Terry - Clutch was ok today for the couple mins I had it out. I've check the cable (decent shape still, not frayed or catching) and the actuation of the arm (with someone else pulling the lever) and that all seems ok. I'll see how it goes for a while but will eventually rebuild the clutch and install a new inner and outer cable. I still have to sort out the jetting and air cleaner once those parts arrive.

I bolted it all back up and I'm going to proceed with leak down test and timing...



Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:18 am

Enthusiast
'71 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 08 Sep 2022
Posts: 82
Location: SoCal
 
Enthusiast
'71 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 08 Sep 2022
Posts: 82
Location: SoCal
Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:18 am linkquote
I took the bike out today and it runs surprisingly great. I think adjusting the points made a big difference (they were barely coming apart before and I adjusted them to the middle of the range, 0.4mm) and I'm sure de-coking the head didn't hurt either. It started on one kick every time today, even after sitting for 20 mins or so.

Still need to sort the headlight out. I pulled the switch and headlight wiggled some wires but no go. I realized the horn works but only if the tail light switch is in the off position. I'll go through with a multimeter soon.

New question, I'm consistently getting a little bit of oil build up at the location in the picture below. That is left side rear floorboard. Slow leak in the oil tank you think? It's odd because the oil looks brown and not 2T green.



Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:54 pm

Molto Verboso
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1308
Location: northern New York
 
Molto Verboso
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1308
Location: northern New York
Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:54 pm linkquote
Could be 2t from the tank after oozing through crud in the tunnel. Have a peek inside. If it's leaking 2t it will be pooling inside a little.
Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:21 pm

Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 2005 70cc Yamaha Vino
Joined: 23 Aug 2020
Posts: 1214
Location: Philadelphia
 
Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 2005 70cc Yamaha Vino
Joined: 23 Aug 2020
Posts: 1214
Location: Philadelphia
Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:21 pm linkquote
brok3nr0b0t wrote:
I took the bike out today and it runs surprisingly great. I think adjusting the points made a big difference (they were barely coming apart before and I adjusted them to the middle of the range, 0.4mm) and I'm sure de-coking the head didn't hurt either. It started on one kick every time today, even after sitting for 20 mins or so.

Still need to sort the headlight out. I pulled the switch and headlight wiggled some wires but no go. I realized the horn works but only if the tail light switch is in the off position. I'll go through with a multimeter soon.

New question, I'm consistently getting a little bit of oil build up at the location in the picture below. That is left side rear floorboard. Slow leak in the oil tank you think? It's odd because the oil looks brown and not 2T green.
Sounds like the electric on my bike too, but my lights only work when they are in the off position. Dunno why. All lights too. Tail light and brake and high and low beam. Beats me.
Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:00 pm

Style Maven
'74 50s x3 '78 P200 E '84 Cosa '91 PK50XL2 '58 AllState '68 Sprint '80 50special and a '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 8837
Location: seattle/athens
 
Style Maven
'74 50s x3 '78 P200 E '84 Cosa '91 PK50XL2 '58 AllState '68 Sprint '80 50special and a '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 8837
Location: seattle/athens
Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:00 pm linkquote
Pull the cover on your terminal box and trace the wire that goes to that added regulator, then compare your wiring to this. Regardless, you should find power w/ a multimeter somewhere on your switch that can be switched low , off or hi to your headlight, and provide switched power to rear running light per the diagram.

I have no idea how late Veloce stator mates up to earlier Sprint wiring harness, could be why the regulator was added? Anybody?


Courtesy of ScooterHelp

Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:34 pm

Enthusiast
'71 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 08 Sep 2022
Posts: 82
Location: SoCal
 
Enthusiast
'71 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 08 Sep 2022
Posts: 82
Location: SoCal
Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:34 pm linkquote
Yeah it gets a little confusing because my junction box only has 4 points where the wires come together and the diagrams I've seen have 5. I'm going to go through and make a "legend" of what wires come and go where and see if I can figure it out.
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