Modern Vespa

After removing the carb, I have a couple of questions that I can't find the answer to online.

1. What is the circled bolt for? Should I remove it when I clean the carb? I don't see it mentioned on any of the videos/images I've seen.

2. Will the circled gasket get destroyed by carb cleaner? Can't tell if it's fiber or metal. Wasn't planning to rebuild any part of the oil pump, just clean out the airbox with carb cleaner (but open to other suggestions if that will damage any part of the pump.)

Thanks!

1- that orifice is generally blocked with a lead ball, but I've seen them with that screw as well. thats the transfer tube for the oil from the base of the carb to the discharge in the Venturi. if it's not leaking leave it alone.

2- it should be fine. just hose every thing out with carb or brake clean and check your surfaces are flat. lap them if necessary.

Thanks, Greasy!

And, I got a little too curious so now I have another question. Do I have the metal outer ring (sorry I don't know its actual name) sitting in the pump housing correctly? I think the slotted part goes over the pin that connects to the throttle (#1 the pic) but I didn't see how it was before it came apart. There is a pin in the housing and a corresponding hole in the ring at the #2 location in the pic that seem like they go together. Also, can I just fit the whole gear part back in there or is there a specific way that it should go? It doesn't seem like it but I just wanted to ask since this part is rather important...

I believe that's all there is.

The hole isn't for a pin, that's how the oil enters, I believe. and the gear turning it inducts.

And it just sits in there between the polished part on the bottom here.

Those things are super rare. It's not even in the Rally parts book I have. They were only on US market bikes, I think? And the later ones are a different design.




The parts book has the gasket, but not the pump.

Ok I don't feel so bad for asking now because I couldn't find it in any parts diagram anywhere! If you look between the 1 and 2 in my photo at around the 4 o'clock position, there is a pin protruding up from the housing. There is this same type of pin coming up from the housing at the #2 spot in the pic that I slotted the ring on to because it has a small hole in it. It seems like as you open the throttle, the pin in the slot at #1 rotates, pivoting the ring around the pin at #2, bring it slightly up or down, for more/less oil to the carb?

where are you in socal? make sure you hook up with locals, for beer or pizza they will often be glad to come over and watch you fumble through your rebuild. if you ask nice they can even drop small parts into the abyss of your garage never to be found again, saving you a step. it's very nice to have experienced eyes while you are doing these the first time around.

Oh yes. That's right! But it all just kind of fits together. it's like a key.

It was a while ago that I rebuilt mine.

If I remember, the top part isn't a perfect circle, so it lets in more oil.

Those things are somehow a perfect functioning design. I've never seen one fail. But I was super worried about reassembling with all the parts in the right place.

What, you don't like my pictures of the most mundane stuff?? I totally agree with you and hope to meet some more vintage folks in my area but my biggest issue is with work and family obligations, scooter time is normally 9-11 PM! Yeah once I realized there was a gasket under there, I figured I might as well replace it while I'm doing all the others. I had watched Robot's video of overhauling one on a P200, but the design of that one is quite a bit different. Once I have it cleaned and all back together I'll squirt some oil in there and turn the gear manually to make sure it's still feeding into the channel in the air box.

If you are down San Diego way then I like building engines.... We have a handful from San Diego contributing on here.

If you are up in LA area there are a ton of people on here who can help.

Thanks, John. Yeah I'm up in the LA area! I'm hoping to get some of this simpler stuff done and get it reliable enough so I can actually go ride and meet some folks. Easier to talk scooters when you're on scooters. Then maybe I can beer and pizza my way into someone's heart to get a hand with the harder stuff

9-11pm right in my prime hours of operation, kajiit house of wares 2nd shift is just getting started about then.

we are experts in losing things on the floor and throughly borking parts. but great at bearings!

The parts book shows the pump. It's in section II under "Crankshaft - Cylinder", p.14

Oh cool. Thanks SoCal. I'll hunt for a different parts book because the one I have doesn't have it in there. According to your image there, looks like that particular one has another washer or spacer (looking at 63) but I don't see how that would possibly fit in mine. I'm just gonna roll with what I've got.

Edit: I found the proper parts book and I just looked again at the pump and I do see how one would fit in there. I'm going to try and track one down.

Do you guys have a link?

BTW before you pull your tank, give the fuel lever a good solid pull.
If you're lucky it may pull out, saving you a lot of grief going forward.

Here you go Ray.

https://scooterworks.com/assets/PDF/PMVSE%20Vespa%20Service%20Manual.pdf

I had what I thought was a Sprint parts book already but it might have been pre-autolube.

Thanks for that tip. I think after I get the carb rebuilt and back on I'll wait to do the tank when I redo the wiring for 12v…which may be soonish if I can't sort what I've got.

So, about the little washer I'm missing in my oil pump (yes, I'm still stuck on that. Yes, that's the kind of person I am. No, I can't help it...)

I actually found a great photo of what it should look like on scooterhelp.com

https://www.scooterhelp.com/tips/engine/oil.mixer.old.vespa.html

I reached out to Scooter West and they poked around for me but it doesn't sound like they have this size. Looks like it should basically sit on top the brass cam ring that is attached to the pump. I could measure that and find a suitable washer on my own. My question is - should I be looking for a washer that is a specific type of metal? Steel? Stainless Steel? Aluminum? Am I over thinking this? (Probably...) Any input is appreciated.


From scooterhelp.com

I'm exactly that kind of person too. I can't help it either. I'm fine with hardware store fixes for minor things, but not very often.

Give Kristian a call/email. He'll know exactly what you're talking about. I'd be surprised if he doesn't have one in his stash of treasures.
His shop is a stone's throw from you.
http://www.baritaliaclassics.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=25_49_67&products_id=1011

Btw have you thoroughly searched your floor? Oily things tend to plop/dance away more quietly.

Thanks for both links!

I've tried to contact Bar Italia before, and got no answer on the phone and no response via email. I figured maybe they're a speciality place that doesn't really deal with the public? Regardless, I've sent him a message via their contact form on their site and I'll see what he says. Thanks for the suggestion! I guess I could always just stop by one day too…

Ha, I will look on the garage floor when I get home. I would love to have it be laying there. Im almost certain I didn't drop it though because opened it over my bench and was careful when removing the components. Anything is possible though!

fwiw that washer is 22id 28.8od .6 thick and it is iron

if you strike out else where I can help you out with most of an assembly

but I'll bet it's stuck to something or you dropped it, I can't see why it would be missing, unless somebody else lost it and knocked the thing back together!

You're awesome, Greasy! Thank you so much for the dimensions. I'll try to see if I can track one down on my own.

I did notice the screws holding the pump to the air box weren't that tight so I was wondering if someone else has been in there at some point. I'll scour the garage floor tonight though, maybe I'll get lucky.

Happy Sunday, scooter pals. We've got some good news and some bad news. Let's start with the good...

Big shout out to Barry at San Fransisco Scooter Center. He was able to find a NOS oil pump that goes with my bike, which includes the missing washer. I bought the whole thing from him for a reasonable price and it's on it's way. Solid dude!

Now the bad news. I performed a pressure test on my cases this evening and it was a big 'ol fail. After pressurizing to 6 psi, pressure would immediately drop. Checked all my connection and plug points first and after tightening up the exhaust stub plug a bit, all was good there. Figured the easiest thing to check is the fly side seal so I pulled the fly wheel off to check it. Not only is the seal bad (along with the base of the barrel), but there is a huge crack and leak around the seal itself. You can see someone has lovingly tried to seal it with blue loctite. Great effort PO but...FFS.

So, now I kindly request the most sensible course of action. Pull it apart and see what else is jacked and get a pro to weld the cases for me? Go to our favorite German superstore and buy brand new cases? Throw some pedals on it and call it a day?

Video of the leaking: https://youtu.be/kfaFrzSMdhA




I'm no mechanical genius, but I'm pretty sure this side of the engine shouldn't have any liquids...

well. shit.

okay, first, clean it all off and assess. it's probably borked.

tear down and inspect: what can you salvage and use from the motor? enough to fill out another set of cases reasonably? source another set of cases or figure out how much to repair those (another set is probably cheaper).

but here's the rub, if most of the stuff in there is waxed, then it makes sense to start in the P/PX direction. parts are cheaper and more plentiful...

you're going to be opening that motor up, so at least you have that to look forward to.

anyway, clean it off and get a good pic. let's see the carnage.

also, I'm sure you can source a set of cases or a complete engine stateside.

We're on the same page. I think if these aren't reasonably repairable (not holding my breath there) then going to a P motor is a no brainer. I'm already pretending like money isn't a thing and looking at the Malossi PX style cases that are already ported to fit their 210 cylinder...but that's just to cheer myself up. I'll go a sensible route...probably...

Are some of the internals from my Veloce engine swappable to a P/PX set up? Like if the gearbox and x-mas tree are still in good shape, could I use them in the newer motor? Or is it better to find a P/PX motor intact with all of it's bits?

I'll start digging in and posting pics so we can see what we've got. Stay tuned for this sh*tshow!

Well that sure ain't right! And what are those funny screws doing there?

I know that Kyle who you bought it from never worked on it. It originally came up from Oregon about 10 years ago and I knew it had a newer "replacement motor" but didn't run. After a lot of fussing w/ the gas tank and fuel tap to get gas flowing, I found the timing was way off because of a sheared key. After I fixed that and it started & ran OK, I used it as my guest loaner for a while until Kyle wanted it.

Not easy but I suppose a talented welder could fix it, I have seen things worse fixed. OTOH, beautiful excuse reason to go up to a 200!

Yes, let's just throw some coin at it and go freakin' fast already!!!

I figure I can tear this guy down and not be afraid to bork anything in the process, and hopefully use that knowledge to do something cool with it in the future. Any hopes of keeping this thing close to original are out the window in my mind and I just wanna make a good running, badass lookin' scoot. Paying homage to the original obviously, but not being worried about the more minor details.

basically, the carb, clutch, clutch cover, brakes/back plate and with a bit a fiddling about the gears/tree will swap over. if it's 125, the exhaust too. but that's about it.

a complete P motor is always a good bet, or start with cases and build from there with some good used stuff and sprinkle in the new stuff as necessary.

you could build out something very decent for not a ton of cash if you stay 125/150 or splash the pot with a 200 and make some solid choices on the go fast bits.

if you want another set of eyes (and tools) to help with an autopsy I'm more than happy to help.

with a P motor nobody but a trainspotter would notice. even more so if you kept it small block. heh heh heh

I'd say that case is toast. Check for rotary valve clearance to make sure. If a 0,10mm feeler gauge does not bind the engine, it's a no-brainer.

If the rotary valve is still good, welding that thing would mean disassembling the whole thing and meticulous scrubbing to get it clean. Basically close to melting it with torch to get the oil burned out of the crack and then some more cleaning.

After all this I'd pop back the bearing, install a crank, put the cases together and pre-heat the snot out of them before welding to keep things from warping. Even after all this fuss the results are tad iffy depending on the skill off the welder. A lot of junk will surface from the pores of the cast when welding and it just has to be dealt with.

If you decide to go for the 200 route, ditch the rotary intake and go for the Malossi case with reed valve. No more fussing about rotary clearance which is an absolute ass to fix if it's not just right.

Usable from your engine for zoom-zoom one:
Main shaft and large gears
Xmas tree minus the primary gear cog
Kickstart quadrant and small gear
Selector box
Brake parts
Wheel hub
Clutch cover - might have to be modified a tad though.


Not usable:
Primary gear cog - you will likely want 65 tooth instead of 68 of your current engine and will be rebuilding the cush assy anyways.
Clutch - get a cosa type one that fits the 65 primary
Crank - go straight for 60mm (or one that fits vmc 245 )
Ignition - I think your engine has a skinny taper so these wont fit on the thicker taper of the 200.
Carb - unless you are very determined and borderline insane.

Hope this is not too daunting of a list but these are the realities

Thanks for all the input. I'm very much leaning toward replacing as opposed to repairing. If I'm going to go through all the work to completely rebuild the bike, I'd like it to be quick and reliable when I'm done.

Now, I may be getting ahead of myself, and feel free to tell me that. But would this be a decent solution? Balancing reliability and quickness? I don't need something tuned to the 9's that's eating clutches every 500 miles. I like that this seems like plug and play to where I'll get a displacement bump without having to do any of my own porting…also will take Fin's reed valve suggestion into consideration…

Case:
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/crankcase-malossi-v-one_57183920

Cylinder + Pipe:
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/tuning-kit-sip-malossi-210-cc-road-legal_1020100H

I saw a PX200 case at a shop here stateside and it was considerably more expensive. I know we have to do shipping and all that from Europe so I know it's gonna be pricey no matter what but, I'd rather cry once…you know…

If you go for the Malossi cases, go straight for the VR-One. Not much more in terms of cost but more potential in many ways. You can use a real slide carb instead of the SI, freedom to choose any flavor of crankshaft and no worrying about pad clearance or intake timings.

In terms of power they will be rather close to each other with the same cylinder kit. For your liking I'd suggest the Malossi 210 sport and to tame it down with a box exhaust and moderately sized carb.

If buying cases, then 200 cases. While at it VRone reed cases. Need a crank, less than 60mm stroke is wasting money. Has to have a strong clutch. Will need a PX flywheel and electrics, why not Vape Sport. It's going to cost. Not the earth but plenty. May as well be decent fast.

The reliability on a 2 stroke is all about the quality of the engine assembly and jetting setup of the carb. Get these right and it will be dependable even if it's 30bhp.

Awesome, thank you for the insight. It sounds like I'm thinking about this in the right way. Make the foundation as quality and modular as possible, without going nuts out of the gate. I was planning to a do a Vape and a beefier clutch, but like Fin said, don't go crazy with the carb and pipe. I can always do that later if I want to tweak even further. I would like to start with a case/cylinder set up that I don't have to remove any material to make work, as that seems like something I'd need more experience for to do it correctly.

I'm going to proceed with tearing this one down, and before I pull the trigger on anything I may consult you all again!

Good luck! I expect you'll be tearing up while tearing down

That fly side is something else. I can't wait to see what's inside it now.

Dude…as soon as I pulled the stator off I didn't even need to pressurize to know something was royally F'd. I'm just so glad I listened to you all and did this first, before chasing jetting or buying more aftermarket parts for a garbage case. I've got some 20/20 carb rebuild parts and and oil pump (complete with washer! Ha!) that I probably wont end up using for a while but I'll hang on to if I pick up another scoot in the future that might need them, but outside that, not too bad. I'm surprised it ran at all. I'll post pics of the carnage, stay tuned!

Repair for bearing on backside?

since you seem to be committed to going 200cc all I can say is formulate a battle plan and stick to it.

when you say you want a quick bike, what do you mean? a stock 200 properly setup will absolutely haul balls AND be reliable. once you start introducing performance parts the propensity to push the envelope both riding wise and build wise quickly leads to broken parts, broken hearts and empty wallets.

anyway, I digress, back to the matter at hand: quick. quick how? you wanna rip wheelies? 80mph? or just a solid reliable touring bike that can ride 2-up all day long. figure that out FIRST and then build to that. building willie rip shit tuned out motor that's straight bomber gets old with the quickness while riding in the city or two up. but if that's your cup of tea, then walk that route.


going VR malossi entails things that add considerable cost to a build overall, namely the carb and reed set up. while not the end of the world, be prepared to spend dough on the tuning bits. but you get a more/easily tunable carb than the SI. also, a kit. so tack on some dough there. add to that the proper spacers/packing, and possibly a head.

then you have the consideration of a clutch, going with a kit basically requires a more robust piece so there's dollars over a stocker-- or even standard cosa. then you're onto gearing which you'll want to fine tune to the kit, carb and pipe selection and that's a whole basket full of snakes with after market primaries, upgears, and proprietary pieces that match only the clutch gear. just keep all that in mind.

things that you would already be doing and/or upgrading would be: gearing (EFL), clutch, ignition/flywheel, pipe. so upgrading to a better clutch or gear set isn't so much of a hit. the ignition is 50/50 wherein the stock stuff works fine and has some tuneability, but an aftermarket can take you further if you're headed that direction.

my back of the napkin math, if you're just opening your checkbook is that you're in 35~5 depending on how you peel the banana.

Yeah, I basically want something that can do two up no problem, and if I want to hop on the highway for a couple of exits, be able to merge up to speed quickly and do at least 65. I don't plan on long distance highway travel, but I also want to feel like I can ride it anywhere in SoCal like a motorcycle without feeling like I'm going to get run down. So if it felt like a 250cc sport bike performance wise, that would be awesome. I never really got a sense of what the Veloce truly felt like because it was never running well, but I figured a P motor will be easier to source parts for in the future, and 200cc-ish for a 200lbs me + passenger couldn't hurt.

Mostly, I want to be able to complete the project. I'm trying to be reasonable in that I've never built a bike before, but it's something I've always wanted to do. I fully expect to make mistakes and have to climb the learning curve, but honestly I know I'm technical enough to get it done with the proper amount of research and help from buddies with tools or know how that I don't have. So, I definitely don't want to build a machine that makes scooterheads drool with with the trick go-fast bits, if it's shit to ride around town and is rarely running nicely because everything has to be perfectly dialed just so. I'd rather have a very quick bike that needs some love from time to time but under normal circumstances will start 9/10 times. I also don't want the pipe to be 120dB at half throttle.

I think if I can successfully build a scoot like that, then I can always do another one and try to make a wheelie machine, if that's what I decide I want to do

sounds like you've got an idea and a plan in mind.

figure out your budget because that will probably be the limiting factor.

then you can make the determinations on new cases v used motor, kit v stock top end that's been massaged, stock EI v aftermarket, new pipe v used pipe (although all of the road/box pipes are quite affordable).

with the help of us knuckle heads I'm sure we can push you to the finish line on the project!

A bone stock PX200 does a true 62mph (speedo might be showing 70/80 but it isn't), one up average weight, on the flat, no wind.
What you are describing requires power in the region of 20bhp. This is easily achievable but the right parts need to be put together in the right way.
Discuss on here before buying anything.