Modern Vespa

Thank you, Jack. I really appreciate everyone on here being patient with me and continuing to help me fumble through this. I'm going to get some options together over the next few days and post and get a consensus from the hive mind as to the best path forward. I will repay you all in engine breakdown photos, which at the rate I'm going, will probably be entertaining.

Hey malfunctioning robo

I'm bummed that your case is trashed and you didn't get to ride your scooter for a while to get accustomed to it, but I gotta say, your attitude is fantastic and I like where this is heading.

It'll be fun to tag along and watch the decision making process, which always involves $$$, Reliability, and Speed. They always say, pick two, but you can sometimes, sometimes that is, find a screaming deal from Greasy ( ), and save a bit on the cash, and still have a kick ass motor that'll do everything you want, within reason.

Good job on keeping it together. And as my buddy Chris always says, "Half the fun is dreaming up what to do and making the gameplan".

If you want a uber reliable scooter that tops out at 65~68mph, build a COMPLETELY stock PX200 EFL with a box exhaust. An all stock 200 built thread here on the forum shouldn't have more than 3 replies to get the engine and carb running in tip top fashion.

I would at least put in a 60mm crankshaft to reduce the factory 3mm squish.

yes, lowering the squish by installing a 60mm crank will make it faster and more powerful

Thanks for the encouragement, qa! And yes, my handle is definitely not a misnomer at this point! I'm trying not to get too bummed about it and just deal with the problems as they come. I always go back to "well, it is more than 50 years old, what did I expect?". And I agree, I'm kind of excited about the potential to do something cool now...if I don't think about the money aspect I'm legit having a blast learning about everything. I've been thinking (obsessing?) a lot about this. Part of me is thinking "You've never done this before, keep it simple, stupid" and the other part of me is thinking "BRAAAAAAAAP!" so ideally I'd like to land somewhere in the middle...have my cake and eat it too, as they say.

With that being said, is there a world where I can go for the Malossi VR-One case but set it up in a way that it's not completely tuned to the the max, with the option to get crazier as time goes on if I so choose? I've shopped around some different places and it sounds like used P/PX200 cases, if I can find them, will run me about $500. My thinking is for just a few bills more, I can get the brand new Malossi cases and take advantage of all the improvements in engineering in the past 50 years. I also like the idea of the reed valve set up because of all the aforementioned advantages (more carb options, no rotary pad clearance fussing, etc). I'm definitely stuck on a P motor, as it seems like the best "future-proof" option.

I'm thinking of this:

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/crankcase-malossi-vr-one_5716908B

And this:

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/tuning-kit-sip-malossi-210-cc-road-legal_1020100H

BTW, that kit says "57mm stroke" and I know the consensus is to go 60mm. Will that work with some gasket magic or should I look at a different option?

I don't want to get in too far over my head, but I'm up for a bit of a steeper learning curve if that's what's necessary. Thoughts?

Whatever you decide get individual parts. Forget the "Road Legal" kit. Overpriced cause it's KBA certified for the Germans roads…

Ah, gotcha, thanks. And the only reason I keep going to SIP is that they seem like the only place that has a chance of having new cases in stock. If anyone has stateside suggestions outside of SW and SM, I'll take 'em.

there's a lot of layers to this onion...

1- you could tear it down, see how awful it is and maybe have it repaired or hunt down a loosie flyside case, while not ideal, could get you rolling again. this would be the most minimal in cost departments because you can reuse most all of what you have.

2- find a complete small block motor, a runner Stella or p 125/150 would put you right into the game for not a ton of dough. bonus is that you get electronic ignition and all the upgrades are available easily.

3- used P2 cases/rebuildable motor: you pays your money, you takes your chances. but you'd be built out and on the road for probably half or less than what a full new build would cost you. bonus is that you get EI, and can upgrade everything as you see fit. additional bonus is that there's TONS of used performance/upgrade parts floating around out there on the cheap (or at least cheaper than brand new).

additional consideration: a P case that has a waxed rotary and needs a reed. generally you can get a set of cases that need some love a little cheaper. just food for thought.

I know you are torn between building a golly-gee-whiz bling'd out motor and a warmed over stocker. I understand the line of sight on thinking long term with a reed and slowing upgrading and building toward that. I'm here to tell you that if you go that route you will be constantly disappointed with your decision. it won't run right because of the mismatched parts, it'll have a funky power band, it'll be just a finicky as tuned to the gills motor without all the power, it'll be a pain to dial in the jetting and the timing because it's a hodge-podge of parts. and you'll always be wondering "what if" you did it big and right the first time.

the final consideration is how quickly do you want to get it going again? a month? spring? early summer? building from scratch takes considerably more time than popping in a donor motor.

me, I'd probably pop in a motor or see if I could fix that flyside/obtain one and roll while I built something on the side on the slow boat picking up deals on parts as I found them.

If going VR one reed and for easy assembly then this kit is the one. They are often out of stock for good reason.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/racing-cylinder-malossi-mhr-mk-ii-221-cc_31185990?q=Mhr%20200

The 57mm version and packer is a solid second choice but works even better than the 60mm with some port grinding.

Either of these are 25bhp bolted on a reed setup. And up to 45bhp with additional modifications (&$$).
Will certainly do the job but maybe too much.

I agree with Sir Greasy, inspect what you have better, it was running so you might be able to fix it. Jonathan Gick might be able to fix it and give you a good idea once you get it torn down.

I would find a running LML reed valve motor or a P200, I think an LML will be easier to find. LML reed has large ports from factory and a large intake port to add a better reed setup if you decide to go side draft. Living on west coast you should be able to find a running motor. I bought my running P200 motor and P200 cases from west coast.

I'm a big fan of the reed LML (Stella) motors for small block builds. I have one in my GL that delivers 27 HP, albeit with a TON of additional work and go-fast parts.

You can do a fairly straightforward bolt-on of a BGM177 and 60mm crank, get the timings right, and it'll give you 16-17 HP and run like that pretty much all day and all night.

In general, though, you need to make sure you have your basic builder skills down (measuring & setting port/ignition timing, squish, and pressure testing) before you start throwing money at go-fast parts which tend to be MUCH less tolerant of mistakes in those areas than a stock motor.

You can learn those on either a P200 or 125/150 motor. The 150 is probably going to be easier to come by. I'll bet that Kajit has something in deep storage that would suit your requirements if you asked nicely.

Lastly, you're also going to need to do some electrical work to either retrofit the wiring harness to the new motor or pull a new harness. How're your multimeter and wiring diagram skillz?

If I was you, and lived close as you do, I'd pull the motor and head over to Greasy's with it if he'll have you.

He may be able to help you figure out how to fix it if doable as step one. If not I KNOW for a fact that he has suitable motors on hand cheeper than most other far off options - both LML 5 port reed valve and P200 possibilities.

Another thing to consider while you are thinking of plentiful power: you have NEVER riden a healthy 150 let alone stock 200. Your bike ran surprisingly well given that case leak when I rode it here. But my stock 150 LML powered Super is a whole lot stronger, which I wrongly assumed was a worn out top end plus likely timing, jetting and wanting a decent pipe, etc.

A healthy stock 200 would be plenty for now as mentioned. And I think a well set up healthy 150 will surprise you, go try out one at Greasy's before you come to your conclusions and you'll see what I mean.

From a beginners perspective, building a mildly tuned engine for the first time kept my hands full. My priorities shifted from "how fast will it go"? to being able to start it on the first few kicks, go out for a ride and get home again every time. A healthy 150 or 200 are plenty exciting, as mentioned. I had a 200 engine running briefly and felt like it had plenty of power with nothing more than a big box exhaust and upjet. If starting over, I would have rebuilt the 200 engine first.

Here's a 200 engine ready to go.
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/mpo/7561543662.html

Damn, Gumpnut, good lookin' out. Messaged them!

I don't normally associate "Sito+" with "Cost no object," but that's just me with my LML Stella junk

I don't have nothin against anyone's ability to rebuild a stock P2 lump, but EVERYONE has a different perspective on what a worn out loose transmission gear looks like. Whenever i come across any sort of chip in the gear (where the cruciform slams against it) i automatically bite the bullet and installed a brand new gear. Some people like to slog through the tedious process to automatically replace the cush springs inside the christmas tree gear in each engine they rebuild, while other don't. The safest and most reliable bet is to have a reputable shop (or know a reputable friend) rebuild it...while making sure to communicate in person exactly what you want and what the mechanic wants! If i personally don't know the person who did the rebuilding, i usually count on disassembling the whole engine and investigating EVERYTHING from the down to the selector box and all the way up to the small end bearing. It will take some time to do (and a new gasket set), but you'll know it will be good to go for at least the next 10,000 miles.

And just to make clear, i have zero affiliation or knowledge about the P200 that's for sale on scoot.net. For sure i'd at least have a verbal conversion with him. I say "him" because no woman in their right mind would remove a P2 engine from their scooter for the sole purpose to install an electric motor. Women are much smarter than that!...no offense to us guys.

$1250 is a great deal for a rebuilt P200. For that price i wouldn't hesitate to spend a couple hundred more bucks to go through 100% of the engine...just to make sure it's exactly 100% tip top. If i lived close enough to the seller, i would swoop in and snag it up to be used as a spare. I would completely disassemble it, investigate, replace ANYTHING that is skeptical, reassemble, then store in on my "engine shelf" to be used as a swap into one of my various other vespa scooter.

Yeah we'll see if the guy contacts me back. The whole "won't email or text" is pretty annoying right out of the gate, but, to each his own. This option would definitely take some of the fun out of building it, but if it is done well like he claims, it would get me rolling again while I sort out everything else on the bike and maybe build another motor on the side. Anyway, we'll see how it pans out.

Stay tuned for carnage photos this weekend! Maybe it won't be so bad? Maybe…?

You also never know how many soft seizures there are on a brand new rebuild...or if a new rebuilt includes a new piston and rings. Like i said, everyone has a different perspective of what exactly a totally rebuilt engine consists of. It's safest to go though any engine that you don't know the history on. I only recommend this because of my own past experience of buying a used "rebuilt" engine.

That listing has been up since April.

Something else jumped out at me about that motor overnight. Specifically: I thought HRA hasn't worked on Vespa motors in close to ten years. Did he get back into it? Or does "freshly rebuilt" really mean "rebuilt, then left on a shelf for ten years?"

I hope this turns out to be legit, an ideal turnkey solution and you could be riding this year if all went smoothly. If not I think Greasy has a 200 motor that just needs putting together. So more time and lessons to be learned , probably less money and riding next year.

I have a stock P200 motor w/ a box exhaust in my Sprint and I can tell you that it is great fun and easy keeping up w/ traffic.

Carnage photos time! But, somewhat disappointingly, I don't think there's much carnage. I know I'm just learning about what I'm looking at but to my untrained eye, things seem to be in pretty normal shape. Would love opinions and comments because I'm sure I'm not seeing everything.

Also, how the heck do I get the small case side flywheel bearing out? My blue book is...not helpful...and my man Sausage demonstrated on a P200 which is a different bearing/seal set up. You can see my (admittedly, pretty funny) failed attempt with a socket. I was going to try and drive the oil seal out and then the bearing...but I'm probably doing it wrong. The crack in my case seems to line right up with that bearing seat so I'd love to get it out to check out what's going on.

Sorry for the crap lighting in my garage. It's on my to do list...

Lessee...

First things first, as a Pro-Tip, you can stick a big screwdriver through the slots in the driveshaft and use that for leverage when installing/removing the cruciform. No need for the time/effort or risk of damage clamping it in a vice.

The selector rod threads look okay to me, albeit a little ugly. Nothing to worry about though, so long as the new cruciform is willing to thread onto them. Don't forget a little loc-tite when you install it, though.

Next thing I see is that I think what someone did is try to install a oil seal adapter which lets you use a P-style oil seal with the older bearing design. CM2 did this successfully on his VBB cases, but he's Not Normal when it comes to these things (unless "has a 3-axis CNC in his garage" is the new normal around here )

Also, you remove that seal by pulling it out from outside the case with a pick, though, not punching it in like that original seal would have been removed.

The more I look at that fly side case, the more I think that it could be set right by bolting it all together with a crank in it, chamfering that crack a little, and then filling it back in with weld. It'd be a total bodge, sure, but if it holds pressure and isn't structurally unsound, I don't see what the issue is. All the main force is on the main bearing, and that seat seems to be uncompromised.

Moving right along...they used a sealed main bearing, which I can't comment on, but I've never seen that done before with main bearings (I use them for my front fork and driveshaft bearings all the time). Maybe to help prevent/contain the leak around whatever Bad Touch was put on the fly side cases. Either way, I wouldn't do it there. That hole you asked about is a vent to allow mixture to get behind the bearing and lubricate it, btw.

For the main bearing, 99 times out of 100, if something is stuck on a Vespa motor, heat will be the answer. Having the correct specialty tool (in this case a bearing puller) also goes a long way to solving that problem. You can get a set of cheap blind bearing pullers at Harbor Freight or Northern Tool for about $50 that will be adequate to your needs for a long time to come, and honestly they're not materially lower quality than you'll get from SIP, just a hell of a lot cheaper. In the case of my main bearing puller, the HF one might be better!

I agree the piston looks okay...for definitions of "okay" that include an OG piston with 2mm rings. I'm guessing the scraping is damage you did to it with soft seizes, but that's where those thick rings really shine.

The crank looks like it's seen better days, but unless you're certain you want to keep these cases, I wouldn't worry about it. If you *do* decide to do something, I'd swap to a P-cone conversion crank so you have access to the full suite of modern ignition systems.

Now, then...the intake has been flowed for a 24/24 carb at some point, but the intake timing looks stock.

And, lastly, the wear on the cases looks inconsistent. Like, there's lots of oxidation inside the crankcase on the clutch side, but not the fly side. Are the cases a mismatch, or am I just overthinking here?

Anyways...that's what I got off the top of my head. Lemme know if you have more questions.

Can you remove those screws?

Heat the aluminum around the bearing with a heat gun or a propane torch.
The release temperature is a bit over a does-spit-sizzle test. It'll tap out.

Thanks CM for the thorough review, and for the drive shaft tip. Will definitely do that in the future.

And just so I'm clear (I ain't so good with words sometimes) when you say: Do you mean heating the case and pulling the seal out this way?

I'll give this a try in the next day or so, as it's been an eventual day around my house (son's got covid and my wife broke her foot!). I'm going to pick up a bearing puller from HF, as CM suggested. I think it'll come in handy on more than one occasion.

As soon as I have it removed I'll post another pic or two so we can see what's cracked.

The seal presses in from the outside of the case with the P-style seal. Totally different design from the old style you're expecting.

Ow. Sounds like you've had a harder weekend than I have, for sure!

Y'all need to take care of yourselves. The scooter will be there when everyone is back in fighting form.

Which one from HF do you suggest? They've got a few different ones.
I gotta remove the fly side bearing from my mismatched VBB cases. Tried heat but I don't think I waited long enough

I lied...that bearing puller set came from ScooterCenter. I have the HF bearing splitter set, which has been great for getting races and bearings off cranks.

Funny thing, though...I screwed up and ordered two of the bearing puller sets, so I have one NIB if you want to save on overseas shipping...

I just got my bearings out of my VNA cases that got stuck. You can do it the ghetto way, heat it all the way up, take a 27 mm socket that lines up well the inner part of the bearing, smack the socket slowly with a rubber mallet... and your bearing pops out with the seal. No use keeping the seal, just heat, smack and out it pops.

Quick note of emphasis. The best bet is to throw the cases in the oven until they are about 300 degrees. That way the bearings will have some wiggle room for both extraction and insertion. Heating the entire case will require much less force whether removing or installing. Your cases will thank you for it.

And it'll help cook the grease out of them too. Your house will smell lovely

It'll smell like victory!

I've never been to Argentina, what's it smell like down there?

"Rule out guesswork" and pick up an infrared thermometer at HF.
Perimeter release temperature for all the bearings is 140 or so centigrade.

It takes a surprising while to get there around the main bearings, even with a propane torch.

Girls, the ocean, Drakoir Noir, disco balls, frothy cold beer, tacos. (And hot engine cases with freshly installed bearings.) *same same/different*

Just did this. 300 for 30 mins and when I put the case side down the bearing just fell out and the seal took a slight push with my thumb. Easy as can be.