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sdjohn wrote:
Makes sense now. Still never had an auto lube yet. I bet you could get a circlip just to pull it in.
if it's machined for it! not all of them are
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greasy125 wrote:
if it's machined for it! not all of them are
His looked like it was. If it isn't can you use the tool on the washers Greasy??
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We're getting there, guys! Homemade wood thing for the win. But it was a bit of an adventure.

At first I tried to just heat the case up and put in the frozen crank by hand. Stuck it in at a slight angle and it wouldn't go anymore. Sh*t. So I had to tap it back out (and check it for trueness again Facepalm emoticon ) and regroup. Right around this time my buddy stopped by and I was lamenting my fail and I showed him my dumb wood thing. We decided to give it a try with him holding the crank so it would go in straight and me working the puller. Worked perfectly! I was honestly surprised how easy it was. I probably got lucky but I'll take it.

Pad clearance looks awesome, no binding or rubbing and everything is turning nicely. When I realized I needed a flywheel nut a couple days ago, I also tossed a new kickstart gear in the cart as well. My original has a chipped tooth so I might as well replace it. But, had to fight the urge to close them up tonight and wait for the ks gear. I'm sure getting the other case half seated on the crank bearing will be another whole ball of wax…

Baby steps to the finish line…
Starting to look like something again.
Starting to look like something again.
Had to go to Lowe's for the tiniest circlip pliers I could find for that little autolube guy…
Had to go to Lowe's for the tiniest circlip pliers I could find for that little autolube guy…
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On to rebuilding the clutch.

Can someone kindly educate me on what these tiny guys are that came in the rebuild kit? I don't think I need them but curious as to what they're for. TIA
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It's a pinch bolt for a cable end.

https://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Cable-Bits/HS-PB

Nothing to do with the clutch itself.
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qascooter wrote:
It's a pinch bolt for a cable end.

https://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Cable-Bits/HS-PB

Nothing to do with the clutch itself.
Ah, ok, for the throttle at the headset. Thought they looked too small for the gear selector ends (was thinking clutch related). Thanks!
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First decent f*up. When rebuilding the clutch, all was going well until I went to put the drive gear on the backplate. I had the springs in properly, had the clutch tool compressing, had a new brass bushing on the backplate and had the little brass shim in the right spot. I put a little gear oil on everything to try and convince the parts but the drive gear didn't want to slip on the backplate by hand. I (stupidly) pressed it on with the vise (thinking if I got it on far enough it would then spin freely, which I now know is not the case).

From what I expected, it should've just slipped on by hand and then been able to spin freely. I know I shouldn't have pressed it together, but are there any theories as to why it wouldn't slip on in the first place? I didn't have any trouble getting it apart. Did I maybe deform the brass bushing by pressing that on with the vise? I didn't heat it beforehand, but it went on pretty easy with a little oil and no drama. I just don't want to repeat the mistake after I buy the necessary parts to fix my situation (I'm assuming I won't be able to get them apart again without damaging them, but maybe).

Facepalm emoticon

EDIT - Disregard! I did figure out a way to safely get the drive gear and the backplate apart! The original brass bushing wasn't that bad so I removed the new one, slapped on the old one and spins like butter. I did new springs and plates, the bushing can wait. F it! Thank you all for going on this stupid journey with me. Stay tuned for more "what's this dummy doing now?" I'm here all week! Tip your bartenders!
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Pretty typical in my experience to make mistakes during a first build. It's easy to gorilla hand some of these little parts. If something feels wrong, take the time to figure out why and just trust yourself.
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I hate clutch bushings. They're supposed to be tight, but I've also had some where it slid right on while it was hot, then cracked when it cooled. No hammer hands required. Facepalm emoticon

Now that it's too late to do you any good, SIP have a good clutch rebuild video if you haven't seen it.

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You are 100% not going to want to hear this but… I'd strongly recommend going back and replacing that bush with a fresh new one.

Everything else is new, why put in something used that is a wear part and that could be suspect?
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greasy125 wrote:
You are 100% not going to want to hear this but… I'd strongly recommend going back and replacing that bush with a fresh new one.

Everything else is new, why put in something used that is a wear part and that could be suspect?
Alternately, while it may not have been suspect before, since that it's been off and back on, it probably is now.

That is a wear part, though, and since the shifting will get super-jerky when it starts to fail, you either have to get right on it or plan on replacing the cruciform ahead of schedule, too.
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orwell84 wrote:
Pretty typical in my experience to make mistakes during a first build. It's easy to gorilla hand some of these little parts. If something feels wrong, take the time to figure out why and just trust yourself.
For sure. The 5 second decision making between "Hmm, well that's not quite going how I expected…" and "What if I just give it a little…" makes all the difference!
greasy125 wrote:
You are 100% not going to want to hear this but… I'd strongly recommend going back and replacing that bush with a fresh new one.

Everything else is new, why put in something used that is a wear part and that could be suspect?
No, I appreciate the input. I don't have it in the bike yet so swapping the bushing isn't a big deal. I'll watch the SIP video CM sent, but any advice on getting it on without deforming it? A lot of videos I've watched mention replacing it but don't go over the best way to do it.
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chandlerman wrote:
Alternately, while it may not have been suspect before, since that it's been off and back on, it probably is now.

That is a wear part, though, and since the shifting will get super-jerky when it starts to fail, you either have to get right on it or plan on replacing the cruciform ahead of schedule, too.
also, he did report herky-jerky clutch action before "the discovery of badness" so I'd be super suspect about reusing any questionable wear items.

and clutches are easier to do than cruciforms...
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I agree. It's worth the time/money/waiting for parts to get it right.

Eventually, you will accumulate spares, which makes life easier if you inadvertently ruin a part. I usually order a few extras for many things when I'm shopping.

There's the part I lose, the part I abuse and the one I actually use.
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brok3nr0b0t wrote:
For sure. The 5 second decision making between "Hmm, well that's not quite going how I expected…" and "What if I just give it a little…" makes all the difference!



No, I appreciate the input. I don't have it in the bike yet so swapping the bushing isn't a big deal. I'll watch the SIP video CM sent, but any advice on getting it on without deforming it? A lot of videos I've watched mention replacing it but don't go over the best way to do it.
I generally check the fit of a few and select the best fitting one, granted I understand that I'm in a position to do that because I stock parts, but even then there can be fitment issues.

best I've found is to use green scotchbrite and dress down the snout of backplate and the bushing until I find the fit suitable. it should be snug but not so tight that you can't assemble/disassemble with your hands.

I've said it before, but I think it bears repeating: it's always a good idea to order two of anything that's small or a wear item, just tack it onto an order or splash some other bits on to meet minimum for free shipping.
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Thanks, Greasy. I'll get 3 of them so I can have options and hopefully get one to fit like you mention.
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brok3nr0b0t wrote:
No, I appreciate the input. I don't have it in the bike yet so swapping the bushing isn't a big deal. I'll watch the SIP video CM sent, but any advice on getting it on without deforming it? A lot of videos I've watched mention replacing it but don't go over the best way to do it.
Smooth as butter?
Promise not to tell Greasy and I'll give you an "if I were you." ROFL emoticon

Just roll with that clutch/bushing for now. Clutch is easily serviceable in-frame, assuming you throw the castellated nut as far a you can.
My crystal ball shows you kitting that bike in the near future. If true, you'll want to replace the clutch.

1) Your clutch basket won't be able to handle a kit and lightened Vape flywheel combination.
2) There are more than a few delicious clutches out there.
3) You can PNP upgear by just using a different toothed cog. If you go Polini box this will be key to making the most of it.
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Ray8 wrote:
Smooth as butter?
Promise not to tell Greasy and I'll give you an "if I were you." ROFL emoticon

Just roll with that clutch/bushing for now. Clutch is easily serviceable in-frame, assuming you throw the castellated nut as far a you can.
My crystal ball shows you kitting that bike in the near future. If true, you'll want to replace the clutch.

1) Your clutch basket won't be able to handle a kit and lightened Vape flywheel combination.
2) There are more than a few delicious clutches out there.
3) You can PNP upgear by just using a different toothed cog. If you go Polini box this will be key to making the most of it.
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Ray8 wrote:
Smooth as butter?
Promise not to tell Greasy and I'll give you an "if I were you." ROFL emoticon

Just roll with that clutch/bushing for now. Clutch is easily serviceable in-frame, assuming you throw the castellated nut as far a you can.
My crystal ball shows you kitting that bike in the near future. If true, you'll want to replace the clutch.

1) Your clutch basket won't be able to handle a kit and lightened Vape flywheel combination.
2) There are more than a few delicious clutches out there.
3) You can PNP upgear by just using a different toothed cog. If you go Polini box this will be key to making the most of it.
Ha! I was kind of thinking along the same lines. As long as it lasts 6 months or so into the fall, I'll be itching to do something stupid by then anyway! I do want to try and get the bushing replaced properly just for the experience though. And I got the updated clutch nut so I won't have the mess with the castle one.

And Greasy - 😂
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Unless it's holding you back on other progress, I still vote for replacing it now, but it's not a difficult (miserable? yes. difficult? no.) task to pull the clutch while the motor is in the bike.

I can do the entire task in about 20 minutes, plus whatever time I spend actually working on the clutch, but I've more than my share of practice, so YMMV.
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chandlerman wrote:
Unless it's holding you back on other progress, I still vote for replacing it now, but it's not a difficult (miserable? yes. difficult? no.) task to pull the clutch while the motor is in the bike.

I can do the entire task in about 20 minutes, plus whatever time I spend actually working on the clutch, but I've more than my share of practice, so YMMV.
Yeah I'll do it now. Want to do it right, even with the plans to do go-fast stuff later. New clutch bushings and new kickstart gear should both arrive tomorrow. The goal is to be sealed up and do a leak test this weekend then move on to cables and wiring.
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brok3nr0b0t wrote:
Yeah I'll do it now. Want to do it right, even with the plans to do go-fast stuff later. New clutch bushings and new kickstart gear should both arrive tomorrow. The goal is to be sealed up and do a leak test this weekend then move on to cables and wiring.
This is the way.
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brok3nr0b0t wrote:
Ha! I was kind of thinking along the same lines. As long as it lasts 6 months or so into the fall, I'll be itching to do something stupid by then anyway! I do want to try and get the bushing replaced properly just for the experience though. And I got the updated clutch nut so I won't have the mess with the castle one.

And Greasy - 😂
Gotcha.

Btw my suggestion that you become semi-fluent in Vespa related Italian & German before diving in was not a joke

This video should do away with your questions related to that bushing.
"In questo modo" = this way.
Auto translate also works very well with his videos.

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Ray8 wrote:
Gotcha.

Btw my suggestion that you become semi-fluent in Vespa related Italian & German before diving in was not a joke

This video should do away with your questions related to that bushing.
"In questo modo" = this way.
Auto translate also works very well with his videos.

Grazie, Ray! That video was perfect. I didn't know about lining up the wider tooth on the iron plates either so I can make sure that is correct when I go back in. Wonder what the point of that is? To make sure there is a wider passageway for oil to make it all the way through?
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Case halves are together! Generally it went pretty smoothly, but I have a couple of questions.

Wrist pin will only insert part way into the piston. I remember having to gently tap it out when I took it apart. I saw that putting the piston in boiling water might help, has anyone has success with this or is there a better way?

Also, I don't want to reuse the wrist pin circlips. They are the thin wire G type ones. I was going to use a snapring like this instead. Is that ok or no bueno?

I had to enlarge one of the stud holes in the case gasket. It's the circled hole in the pic below. I got the kit from SW and it is made to fit both the VLB and the VBC engines. I made it just a bit bigger and to the left (the pic is before I did anything to it) until it went over the stud without binding up. And the hole just below and to the right doesn't line up with a stud. Anyone with similar experience?

How smoothly/effortlessly should the crank turn? I can turn it with a nut and a socket on the end of the clutch side and it turns pretty smooth, but I definitely can't turn it over with just my fingers.

Got a new clutch bushing installed and put the iron plates on in the right orientation. Hoping to get the top end on tomorrow and leak test!
This is the one I had to alter a bit
This is the one I had to alter a bit
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Getting there...
Getting there...
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So long as it's not torn and has at least a couple millimeters of width, that's all fine. Sometimes the gaskets fit without issues, sometimes they don't. Usually they're pretty close.

For the crank, so long as the cheeks of the crank web are not binding against the cases, you're probably fine. That usually happens if you draw the crank into the clutch side of the case too far. It'll be obvious, though, because it won't (wouldn't have) turn(ed) with the case halves apart, either.

Once things get lubricated and everything seated, it should be fine.

Also, you really need to replace those swingarm and (I'll assume) shock mount buffers. They're DONE.
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brok3nr0b0t wrote:
How smoothly/effortlessly should the crank turn? I can turn it with a nut and a socket on the end of the clutch side and it turns pretty smooth, but I definitely can't turn it over with just my fingers.
Let's see if this cut to the chase link works...


https://www.google.com/search?q=floating+vintage+vespa+crank&rlz=1CATTSD_enUS986&oq=floating+vintage+vespa+crank&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i160l3.13594j0j9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&scso=_RL3nY6yQLMrpkPIPh9WwYA_82:1680&vld=cid:db0d3488,vid:YV982aFlywA,st:2137
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chandlerman wrote:
So long as it's not torn and has at least a couple millimeters of width, that's all fine. Sometimes the gaskets fit without issues, sometimes they don't. Usually they're pretty close.

For the crank, so long as the cheeks of the crank web are not binding against the cases, you're probably fine. That usually happens if you draw the crank into the clutch side of the case too far. It'll be obvious, though, because it won't (wouldn't have) turn(ed) with the case halves apart, either.

Once things get lubricated and everything seated, it should be fine.

Also, you really need to replace those swingarm and (I'll assume) shock mount buffers. They're DONE.
Cool, thanks CM. I stopped pulling the crank in on the clutch side once the inside face of the bearing was flush with the inside edge of the case. It turns smooth, just need a good grip.

What do you think of those proposed circlips for the wrist pin?

And yeah, I thought about doing the shock mount buffers, but didn't know if it was overkill. These honestly look better than the VLB motor but I'll replace them!
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It did work! I've watched that video probably 10 times before I started Laughing emoticon I tried floating the crank a little but didn't seem to make it any better. I think I have zero free play, at least trying to wiggle it with my hands. Maybe I'll give it a few more taps today and see how it goes. Not sure how to fix it if floating doesn't work…
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I had the same concerns when rebuilding my engine. It didn't spin round and round with little effort like automotive engines I had built. It will take some effort to spin the crank, but it should be uniform and not bind.

I did similar kinds of things on my bus engine. Camshaft gets tapped for and aft to seat it in the bearings, crank too when checking endplay and the case here and there as it's being closed. It kind of helps stuff find its home.

As you build the engine up check its rotation. I got binding when the flywheel got torqued down. It was rubbing on a cylinder spacer, so I had to file a spacer down. The oldies are a little tougher to build. Your doing good.
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orwell84 wrote:
I had the same concerns when rebuilding my engine. It didn't spin round and round with little effort like automotive engines I had built. It will take some effort to spin the crank, but it should be uniform and not bind.
Thanks for the feedback. After I try floating it some more, I'll make sure that it doesn't seem like it's binding anywhere in the rotation, even if I do have to use a socket on it to get it turning.
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Any opinions on whether or not the crank it's too far into the clutch side, would be appreciated. The oil passageway on the fly side is less obscured by the bearing than on the clutch side. Everything spins without binding. TIA.
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I would replace the clips with the same style that came out. I also always refresh clips, I consider them as one use only items.

CM hit it on the gasket, as long as there's about 3mm to seal, don't sweat it.

on the crank, that's fairly typical. it should be *snug* to the point that you can't turn it by hand, but should roll over easily and smoothly with a wrench without stuttering, binding or stiffening up anywhere.
OP
@brok3nr0b0t avatar
UTC

Hooked
'71 Sprint Veloce
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Hooked
@brok3nr0b0t avatar
'71 Sprint Veloce
Joined: UTC
Posts: 266
Location: SoCal
UTC quote
Thank you, Greasy. I'll order the right clips. After floating the crank a bit more, I can just barely get it to turn with my hands, and it's the same resistance throughout the stroke, so I think it's ok.

I wonder if the guys at SW and SM are like "Damn, this brok3nr0b0t guy just cannot figure out what he needs all at once I guess..." Laughing emoticon

Really appreciate everyone's patience with me. I'll be much better at this the 2nd time around...
@chandlerman avatar
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate
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84 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9167
Location: Nashville

84 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
brok3nr0b0t wrote:
I wonder if the guys at SW and SM are like "Damn, this brok3nr0b0t guy just cannot figure out what he needs all at once I guess..."
Nah, that's painfully normal until you have amassed a dragon's hoard of spares. And even then, I've found myself with multiple orders from SM in flight at the same time. It's a normal part of most projects.
@greasy125 avatar
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Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
 
Sergeant at Arms
@greasy125 avatar
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: UTC
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Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
UTC quote
chandlerman wrote:
Nah, that's painfully normal until you have amassed a dragon's hoard of spares. And even then, I've found myself with multiple orders from SM in flight at the same time. It's a normal part of most projects.
^^ this.

and even with a MOUNTAIN of parts... you still are always missing something.... the *right* jet, clip, pin, whatever.

that's why I always say order two or three of the dumb little things.
@kowalski avatar
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Hooked
2005 Stellalossi 177 Fe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 450
Location: MA
 
Hooked
@kowalski avatar
2005 Stellalossi 177 Fe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 450
Location: MA
UTC quote
brok3nr0b0t wrote:
I wonder if the guys at SW and SM are like "Damn, this brok3nr0b0t guy just cannot figure out what he needs all at once I guess..." Laughing emoticon
They're used to it. Reminds me of the time I installed a clutch side seal inside out. After 50 years of working on motors where crank seals are supposed to keep shit in, I completely failed to grasp the concept of a crank seal that is supposed to keep shit out. Ended up ordering the same part twice in the space of one week.
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Ossessionato
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Location: northern New York
 
Ossessionato
@orwell84 avatar
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Location: northern New York
UTC quote
brok3nr0b0t wrote:
Thank you, Greasy. I'll order the right clips. After floating the crank a bit more, I can just barely get it to turn with my hands, and it's the same resistance throughout the stroke, so I think it's ok.

I wonder if the guys at SW and SM are like "Damn, this brok3nr0b0t guy just cannot figure out what he needs all at once I guess..." Laughing emoticon

Really appreciate everyone's patience with me. I'll be much better at this the 2nd time around...
I've had parts for 3 different bikes in the same order; a VBB, LML and P series. I have talked to the guys at SM many times. They are great.

No worries about asking lots of questions. People here are really helpful. Your build experience has been a lot like mine. Your questions too. Pretty sure everyone will cheer on your first engine start and ride into the sunset.
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Hooked
'71 Sprint Veloce
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Hooked
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'71 Sprint Veloce
Joined: UTC
Posts: 266
Location: SoCal
UTC quote
Haha, I've emailed SW before and kindly asked them to combine my shipments since I ordered two separate orders in the span of about 30 minutes. They were very nice and were planning to do that anyway.

And yeah, I've gotten in the habit of anything that costs less than a buck, order 10 of 'em.

The hardest part is dealing with the stalled progress. But I try to remind myself that rushing and doing it wrong is worse that not doing it in the first place, so just wait for the right part/tool!
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Hooked
'71 Sprint Veloce
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Location: SoCal
 
Hooked
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'71 Sprint Veloce
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Location: SoCal
UTC quote
Well, I may have an issue...

I figured I could go ahead and put the clutch in the engine while I wait for the correct hardware for the top end. When I went to put on the gear that sits behind the clutch, that drives the oil pump, I realized it's not sitting flush with the oil pump gear. It his the lip on the crank that the oil seal fits against before it becomes flush with the oil pump gear. Which makes me think I drew the crank too far in to the clutch half.

The first picture is the gear alignment before disassembly. The 2nd picture is today. If the consensus is in fact that I pulled the crank too far into the clutch half, is there a way to remedy it without opening the cases up again?
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