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Another update

Yesterday after purging the cooling system and checking that everything was fine (and before putting back the 7 million caps and screws) we took the MP3 out for a short run, to see how it feels and handles.

The bike feels very aggressive and happy at the start, stable at minimum, goes evenly, but around 4000 RPM it cuts and shuts down. No check engine. If I hit the starter it starts immediately as if nothing had happened.

Tomorrow we will check to see if we see anything that is not right, ideas are still welcome
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Is the fuel injector and computer giving it enough fuel to keep up at 4,000 RPM? I'm wondering if the computer knows the engine is bigger and thus knows to change the fuel/air ratio to account for it at the higher revs.

What happens if you blip or briefly rev the throttle to temporarily rev it above 4,000?

Is it a clean break at 4,000 or is there some variation to how high and how long above 4,000.
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Stator and balancing countershaft are also different on the 530…
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Nop, Countershaft group in the 500 HPE and 530 HPE are exactly the same, part number 1A018568 (in the case of the 500 the previous part number is 841456, but is updated), same happens with the Stator, part number 1A018074 in both
SaFiS wrote:
Stator and balancing countershaft are also different on the 530…
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I need to do more tests tomorrow, the injector on the 500 HPE and the 530 are exactly the same (even the same part number CM291203), but not the throttle body, so the difference must be at the map level, but I think a variation of only 7.5% in capacity Should it be compensated by the old throttle body and the ECU automatically? (when I changed the cylinder from the 250, which is actually 244, to the Malossi, which is 282, the change was 15.5% and everything worked perfectly and easy)

The cut is clean, without warning, underneath it works perfectly, but yesterday I couldn't do many more tests because they were going to close the workshop.

I suspect it could be (but any extra ideas are welcome):
1. A vacuum line that is not good, that was stepped on in the process or when we removed the gas recirculation canister (EVAP)?
2. Any connector that is not perfectly connected?
3. Does the ECU need a little more time to read/learn that more fuel is now required? (is there any way to reset the ECU without having access to a dealer's computer?)
4. Other ideas?
pinheadh78 wrote:
Is the fuel injector and computer giving it enough fuel to keep up at 4,000 RPM? I'm wondering if the computer knows the engine is bigger and thus knows to change the fuel/air ratio to account for it at the higher revs.

What happens if you blip or briefly rev the throttle to temporarily rev it above 4,000?

Is it a clean break at 4,000 or is there some variation to how high and how long above 4,000.
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Maybe something interesting to add, and that I forgot to add yesterday, regarding 4000 RPM.

Various behaviors:
- If you accelerate gently on the test bench it sometimes (rarely) goes over 4000 RPM but if you accelerate quickly it turns off
- If I'm rolling (with load, on the street) it turns off when I give gas
- In both cases it turns on the first time as nothing happen
- We removed the gas cap and the RPM goes well to the top, then like an explosion and it turned off.

Tomorrow I expect to do more tests and triple check everything
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Today we did multiple tests, we checked the vacuum lines, all good, we checked connectors, all good, the bike no longer makes the small explosion, but it keeps turning off

The shutdown is as if the Kill/Run switch was pressed Facepalm emoticon

I don't have access to a PADS, what else could I check?
⚠️ Last edited by dariusz on UTC; edited 1 time
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dariusz wrote:
I don't have access to a PADS, what else could I check?
could use a generic odb2 tool. these generally do more than just engine codes, they also show things like the o2 reading and fuel trim. I personally use an elm327 bluetooth adapter connecting to my phone which do give this values as graphs. a typical hand held reader would give you these numbers (although the cheap units probably not as a graph)
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pinheadh78 wrote:
Is the fuel injector and computer giving it enough fuel to keep up at 4,000 RPM? I'm wondering if the computer knows the engine is bigger and thus knows to change the fuel/air ratio to account for it at the higher revs.

What happens if you blip or briefly rev the throttle to temporarily rev it above 4,000?

Is it a clean break at 4,000 or is there some variation to how high and how long above 4,000.
it will learn to give more fuel do the same with the 400 (399cc) to a 500 (487cc)
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That is what I expect, from 399 to 487 is a 22% increment (a huge increment), and from the 493 to 530 is only 7.5%...

My concern is that it is a clean shutdown, as if the Kill/Run switch was pressed Crying or Very sad emoticon
Maksor wrote:
it will learn to give more fuel do the same with the 400 (399cc) to a 500 (487cc)
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timing wrong ? is the crankshaft hitting the cylinderwall
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I'm not sure, but if timing were bad would it have a stable idle and move stable to 4000 rpm?

About crankshaft hitting cylinder wall I can't hear any noise at any RPM value, but I check it again
Maksor wrote:
timing wrong ? is the crankshaft hitting the cylinderwall
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Well, here's another update.

The engine is already able to go over 4000 rpm, it is happy and feels very even when accelerating, that is progress, the mechanical times were checked again and they are in their points in a super exact way, all the cables and connections were checked again and everything looks fine.

But we continue to have random shutdowns, and when I say random it means that we have not been able to see a pattern. Crying or Very sad emoticon

Suddenly the motorcycle is on for 20 minutes at idle and it doesn't turn off, at another time it stays on for 3 minutes and turns off, I go out for a ride and everything is going well and suddenly, for no apparent reason, it turns off (we haven't dared to take long trips, but close ones in case there is any problem, plus it has been raining and that doesn't help either). Facepalm emoticon

In all cases after it turns off, as if the Kill/Run switch was pressed (this is the best description I can get of how it turns off), it turns on perfectly on the first try, there is never a previous signal or a warning, there are no tremors, or any signal that gives us lights, not even a check engine on the dashboard, nothing.

I was also comparing part numbers between the 500 HPE and the 530 HPE, I thought (or had read) that the throttle bodies were different, but that is not the case, they are identical (same part number CM310901) although the ECU I do believe is different I had already commented before that the injector was the same, even the magneto and stator (that whole assembly) is the same.

I'm running out of ideas
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Can you bypass the kill-switch entirely to determine if its something in that circuit or related to it? Just open it up and bridge the wires directly eliminating the switch mechanism? Perhaps the basic connections are okay but what if the switch itself has some fault thats not immediately visible.
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Tomorrow I check. Thanks. Any idea is welcome now

Maybe the switch cable is pinched in some part and in some random moment touch ground and shutdown the engine (do the effect of a kill switch)?
pinheadh78 wrote:
Can you bypass the kill-switch entirely to determine if its something in that circuit or related to it? Just open it up and bridge the wires directly eliminating the switch mechanism? Perhaps the basic connections are okay but what if the switch itself has some fault thats not immediately visible.
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Maksor????
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only a cylinder change wont give these problems only running lean will be for sometime a problem

Electrical problems are more likely a earth connection or missed connection
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So a sad update

I find that my "2022 MP3 500 HPE Sport Advanced" purchased in the US comes from Piaggio as a Frakenstein

Some things I can see (for now), the ECU is one from a 2018-2020, then the Throttle body group is different, even the diagnostic connector is not the modern 6-pin OBD2 type but the old 3-pin, 2-wire Fiat type.

So now I can't be sure of anything based on breakdown manuals and similar things, even the workshop manual there are several things that are not going to help me.

My level of disappointment with Piaggio is enormous, and it makes me seriously re-evaluate any Piaggio in my future.
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about the six pin obd i've got a 2021 500hpe advanced here from a customer also 3 pin (Aprillia/Ducati)

Don't know about the new 530 if that one got a 6 pin or the Ducati one

But that won't be the problem for the 530 conversion

The older throttleody can manage 4 cylinders
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That's crazy. I have the 2021 500hpe and the 530 workshop manual and clearly talks about the 6 pin OBD socket but yes, sounds as Piaggio do any what like.

I agree that the socket don't make difference but with the 6 pin one I can connect a simple OBD2 scanner to read if exist a error code that can help me diagnose but with the Fiat type I'm not sure... is possible only with a adapter?
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dariusz wrote:
I agree that the socket don't make difference but with the 6 pin one I can connect a simple OBD2 scanner to read if exist a error code that can help me diagnose but with the Fiat type I'm not sure... is possible only with a adapter?
see for reading codes via the 3 pin DIY Diagnostic tool for injection Vespa's with MIU ECU

also on the vespas (and I'd assume the mp3), the 3 pin in the older models only has a k-line connection to the ecu. the 6 pin in the newer models have both the k-line and can-bus pins yet only the can-bus connects to the ecu. so quite different in practice
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Thank you

Yes, I'm going to have to make my own diagnostic tool, I thought I could get something simple ready-made (great advantage if it had the 6-pin connector that follows OBD2 guidelines), but I'll have to get the cables and do everything else... I hope I don't make a costly mistake Facepalm emoticon
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no need to make your own jpdiag can read the mp3
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In the JPDiag ECU database the IAWRIUs do not appear, neither the RIU1 nor the RIU2, maybe you have a extra info to share?
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New update, it seems there is light at the end of the tunnel...

Since my last update we have done tests and more tests, trying to discover what could be wrong, we retire the engine from the bike again and checked each cable that passed even 50 cm from the engine, we checked connectors, we bridged the kill switch in case that was where the problem was, etc etc, always the same result, random shutdowns.

So yesterday we started with a test based on signals that we saw last week on the oscilloscope that gave us the impression that the signal from the crankshaft sensor was not in sync with the signal to the coil (it was as if it were out of phase), the theory we apply is that the new connecting rod and crankshaft, although they will have the same travel (71mm), possibly had a longer rotation time and although the rotor assembly were the same between the 500 and the 530, perhaps at the ECU level or at stator sensor level something change? Or in the 530 a "correction" was made to move the signal in the ECU (we don't have a way to test this without a 530 in hands), so we loosened the rotor assembly and moved it a few degrees (I estimate about 4) clockwise and the bike did not start ha ha ha ROFL emoticon , so we did the same but on the opposite side (each test is very slow, it is draining oil, draining coolant, disassembling, adjusting, reassembling, adding oil, bleeding the coolant system, etc). This time it turned on, it remained stable, and most importantly of all, it didn't shootdown for several hours, both at minimum and while driving around outside the workshop (short trips), so I think we are on the right track. Clap emoticon

Tomorrow we will see how to make that gap. The ideal would be to be able to delay the signal electronically, but I don't know if it is feasible or reliable, since I don't know how its behavior will be as the RPM varies. I am open to ideas, if anyone has the knowledge in electronics with this type of signals I would be very grateful.

Now for the tests we have moved the magneto, but that means putting it without the clutch key. That is fine for testing but not for continuous use, we are also evaluating making a kind of slide for the crankshaft sensor and moving it, but I am not sure if it is feasible due to space, and we have to think about whether it should be changed in the future that sensor can be put back the same.
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variable rpm could be demaged sensor or missaligned sensor, did have that one, once with a 500 x9 but that one is easy on a x9 its sticks out of the head
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Maksor wrote:
variable rpm could be demaged sensor or missaligned sensor, did have that one, once with a 500 x9 but that one is easy on a x9 its sticks out of the head
Maksor, I think you don't read well, I don't have variable RPM, I need to delay the sensor signal and trying to find a good way to do it but my concern if is done using some electronic gadget is if works well as RPM changes in normal use
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A mini-update

I can confirm that the problem of the shutdowns are related to the position of the crankshaft sensor that read the rotor assembly, or in other words, the exact moment where the signal is send from the sensor to the ECU vs the rotation of the crankshaft.

Today we open again all and move/rotate a little more the rotor assembly, trying that signals are in line in the oscilloscope, test and all goes well (even better than the day before), as exist more margin to align based in the oscilloscope read, tomorrow we move a little more and I expect we have the exact final point (look as the final position needs to be close to -15 degrees).

Additional, in a call today with some friends in Spain that modify and prepare scooters for competition, one of them comment me that in a Piaggio training last year, someone talk about a signal delay and the value of 15 degrees (he didn't remember well) sounded a lot to him.

So maybe the universe and the stars are finally aligning Clap emoticon
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well english is not my native and im on other media's also so switching from Deutsch to english to Dutch and then google translate to french or spanish will be a problem some times Razz emoticon but i'm glad it pointed you in a good direction about the sensor
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When we used the oscilloscope the first time, the phase shift in the signals caught our attention, but first we wanted to rule out the most obvious/simple things (connectors, cables, etc.). When we were sure that the above was correct, we had no choice but to go deeper.

Now once this is ready, and the turner makes a new face on the rotor assembly in the right place and covers the original to be sure not to make a mistake in the future I think we will be ready to assemble all the last time and close for good.

Now I'm a little worried about the extra gas the engine will need.
In Close Loop it is simple because the lambda gives information to the ECU and it compensates, but in Open Loop I must find a way to adjust the maps or add extra fuel...
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Timing is variable on these engines and controlled by the ECU. Eyeballing and guessing the flywheel position can result in a nice hole in the piston. This was never an easy and as it turned out also not a cheap conversion. In the end, you'll probably need a remap or a 530 ECU…

Hope you make it and nothing bad happens…
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SaFiS wrote:
Timing is variable on these engines and controlled by the ECU. Eyeballing and guessing the flywheel position can result in a nice hole in the piston. This was never an easy and as it turned out also not a cheap conversion. In the end, you'll probably need a remap or a 530 ECU…

Hope you make it and nothing bad happens…
Not true timings is not variable on a mp3 the little hamer on the camshaft sprocket is a "decompresseur" (can find the english word), it helps with the decompression stroke but runs the same without and it only comes on the 492 and 530cc and not on the 400 and the earlier 500 (460cc) Beverly, Atlantic Nexus and X9 didn't have that

the flywheel can not switch a degree neither can de camshaft sprocket or pick-up while running so it fixed value not like a vtec of vanos systeem
you only can set the camshaft a degree earlier or later so +1 -0 -1 , 2 degrees or more will cost you the valves and cylinder with a stock set-up
when u send the head to a machine shop and reset the valves then you can get 2 or more
Done it all with my Fp3 487cc 48 hp on the cranck 197km/h in 2009 and 10

The pickup on the flywheel needs to be fixed can't even be a 0.5 degree off

i've done more then 20 conversions for the 400 to 500 and 850 to 1000 cc all throttlebodies from euro3 and higher from the piaggio group are self learning only the one that wasn't updated in his life needed a bit of help some times it was software but it also could be a injector

Even the Piaggio twinspark isn't a real twinspark its more a dualspark system, switch the cables from the sparkplug and it only will run a littlebit rough do this with an alfa Romeo 4 banger 8 coils and plugs or early Smart for two 3 banger 6 coils and plugs and it won't even start only backfires

You can adjust mapping with software first download te bin from the ecu to pc change it then upload it back to ECU also freeware like Tune ecu but you have to make your own extention files i've paid someone in greece to do it for me in 2011 but that computer crashed and had no backup
you can also buy for 2000.- chiptuning software that can do all bikes and cars up to stage 1 thats more fooling sensor giving them an other value higher or lower but same concept as remapping
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Maksor wrote:
Not true timings is not variable on a mp3 the little hamer on the camshaft sprocket is a "decompresseur" (can find the english word), it helps with the decompression stroke but runs the same without and it only comes on the 492 and 530cc and not on the 400 and the earlier 500 (460cc) Beverly, Atlantic Nexus and X9 didn't have that

the flywheel can not switch a degree neither can de camshaft sprocket or pick-up while running so it fixed value not like a vtec of vanos systeem
you only can set the camshaft a degree earlier or later so +1 -0 -1 , 2 degrees or more will cost you the valves and cylinder with a stock set-up
when u send the head to a machine shop and reset the valves then you can get 2 or more
Done it all with my Fp3 487cc 48 hp on the cranck 197km/h in 2009 and 10

The pickup on the flywheel needs to be fixed can't even be a 0.5 degree off

i've done more then 20 conversions for the 400 to 500 and 850 to 1000 cc all throttlebodies from euro3 and higher from the piaggio group are self learning only the one that wasn't updated in his life needed a bit of help some times it was software but it also could be a injector

Even the Piaggio twinspark isn't a real twinspark its more a dualspark system, switch the cables from the sparkplug and it only will run a littlebit rough do this with an alfa Romeo 4 banger 8 coils and plugs or early Smart for two 3 banger 6 coils and plugs and it won't even start only backfires

You can adjust mapping with software first download te bin from the ecu to pc change it then upload it back to ECU also freeware like Tune ecu but you have to make your own extention files i've paid someone in greece to do it for me in 2011 but that computer crashed and had no backup
you can also buy for 2000.- chiptuning software that can do all bikes and cars up to stage 1 thats more fooling sensor giving them an other value higher or lower but same concept as remapping
I'm talking about spark timing, not the cam / valves. What they did was to install the flywheel without the woodruff key at a different position so as to fool the ECU. But running the spark timing without knowing how the 530 ECU handles the spark can hole the piston if they end up too advanced. The conversions you did were easier than this cause the rod was the same, you just went bigger bore…
⚠️ Last edited by SaFiS on UTC; edited 1 time
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was looking arround and came across the Aprilia shiver 750

iff any one has or knows where to find the Dualcam heads from a early Aprilia Shiver 750 they could also fit on a gp800 or SRV850 maybe even on a Master 400 / 500 /530

these could also be interesting to play with
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spark timing is also set by the pick up on the flywheel with a powercommander or rapidbike then you can make it somewhat variable will driving
the throtllebody only uses the signal from the pickup for fuel and spark can not delay or advance it

What happened here was maybe a .5 degree off from the pickup so timing off on the 7th februari i mentioned timing or hitting

a powercommander connects between the pickup lambda and throttlebody and some have a wheel to delay or advance the signal others have 6 buttons with a pre-set that you can program and thats stage one fooling sensor Razz emoticon

It also funny that the pickup is the only Piaggio part that needs a allmost zero marge'n of error to fit it
frontwheel allignment + or - 4mm its good
Play on the rear wheel + or - 2 mm its good
even valve clearance 400 a x8 needs .15 and .20 a mp3 400 .20 .20 beverly 400 15 15 all the same engine
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Ok, I think we are digressing into other things that have nothing to do with what I did, and that apart from everything else it did work to prevent the motorcycle from shutdown, and I think I explained in a previous post what the theory was that I endorsed it.

We must differentiate very well between mechanical time and electronic time:
- The mechanical timing, if it is wrong, could cause the valves to hit the piston, etc., but this is at the exact point from the beginning, and is regulated with the references of the timing chain, etc.
- The electronic timing is what the ECU defines by sending the signals to the coil and the injector, and this is what we normally see on the maps and we can vary by advancing or retarding to achieve an optimal moment, and which is generally only for the spark and not for the injector pulse which is normally fixed.

ECUs use a base signal, such as that of the crankshaft sensor, to know where the piston is and thus properly trigger the injector pulse and/or the spark via the coil.

In our specific case, the idea is simple. Because the 530 has the bolt (connector from the connecting rod to the crankshaft and the piston, in Spanish is Bulon, I don't know the exact name in English, sorry) out of phase compared to the 500 and a longer connecting rod, it requires (or rather does in the ECU) that the injector and/or spark plug firing occurs in a later time than in the 500, which the 500's ECU does not do (or do less). Since the signal from the crankshaft sensor in both is the same, I assume that the 530's ECU takes charge, but since I don't have a way to delay this signal to the ECU or inside the ECU, the other way is to delay it via the rotor assembly. Simply have the crankshaft sensor read/send the signal a few degrees later, thus guaranteeing that the injector pulse and spark occur at the precise moment it should occur mechanically, then the adjustments made by the map of the ECU to delay or advance spark the minimum required quantities will still occur, but on a correct baseline.

Regarding fuel, I have not found a solution where I can buy a programmer (like the ones I have used on Hondas or Harley Davidsons like a Power Vision or similar) where I can modify the map a little to compensate for the fuel in Open Loop, since in Close Loop the ECU can actually be adjusted using the feedback from the lambda probe (how much? I'm not sure, but for this there are some solutions that seem quite easy to install and use), but in Open Loop where does it come from the information to adjust? There is nothing that can tell the ECU that, for example, the mixture is poor...

Before someone say hey is the air temperature, engine temperature, altitude, humidity, air flow into the manifold, etc I can say yes, but nothing reflect the real mixture state, as the ECU needs to work with fixed information AKA the preprogrammed fuel and advance MAPs, that are adjusted by this factors but based in fixed values. No feedback.

If I can find a Power Commander that works for an IAWRIU2.E05 ECU (it's the one that comes with my bike) I would love it, since I can adjust those small values to their ideal point, but Piaggio no longer even appears in the options/search.

If anyone knows of any other viable option that really works and isn't just an urban myth, I would love to know about it.
So far I have contacted Rexxer, DimSport (rapid bike) DynoJet, etc. and nothing. There are only solutions that allow you to "trick" the ECU based on the lambda sensor signals, but nothing that helps in the area where it is in Open Loop and the lambda sensor signal is ignored by the ECU (examples for those who are not familiar, normally the engines go into Open Loop when the engine is cold, the RPM is greater than X value, or a sudden/strong acceleration occurs, etc.)

Here I don't have access to a Dyno, therefore I have to do things myself, just as I have done on the other motorcycles I have, but Piaggio is extremely closed, both in terms of getting information and for manufacturers to make things for them.

Sorry for the long text
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Molto Verboso
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Truth be told, it appears you are in this pickle in the search for only a couple more horsepower.

And if you wanted more power, then why didn't you buy a bike that has more power?

A used Honda, such as a ST1300, is marginally heavier than a MP3 yet will do a wheelie in factory stock form, has a V4 engine (the ideal bike engine type), has a real transmission, no rubber band drivetrain garbage, can be run the cheapest gas, is bulletproof reliable, and is cheap as chips on the maintenance.

Ask me how I know, I own both
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sbaert wrote:
And if you wanted more power, then why didn't you buy a bike that has more power?
Don't like to return to the same argumentation that are in Jun last year in this same post (https://modernvespa.com/forum/topic182787#2621741) but fun factor and the pride of achieving something is priceless. Maybe a Ducati Monster with more that 150 HP is enough for you? I have one, so no point.
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Molto Verboso
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Define "achieving something"

2 extra ponies? Yeeeeah, that's worth the time and money spent ... NOT
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the powercommanders and rapidbikes are all the same you just buy a cableharness for a specific bike with it

exemple this one is for a Duc rapid bike

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

or this one will fit all master engines its the old one for a 400 but lambda pick-up injection plugs are all the same

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

or memjet
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Don't expect a hughes increase of horspower with just this setup its just help fooling the sensors to give it a bit more
my 2009 with 48 crack hp did have a worked on head and lots of other things done to it did run with a Rapid bike but not a plug and play one it was programmed on a Dyno for the whole RPM range
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