Wed Nov 16, 2022 4:44 pm

Member
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Wed Nov 16, 2022 4:44 pm linkquote
I filled up with good synthetic 2T oil before a 10 mile "thrash" (!) at 40 and 50 mph (some steep hills) and checked the oil level again after: seems I used 3/4 of the quantity of oil in the filler pipe. Petrol gauge - no massive fuel drop.

Surely that is too much oil used? I also couldn't start the scooter for the return thrash without cleaning the plug which was very wet sooty. (choke was off).

Lack of light prevented me from checking the air filter and mixture setting or removing the carb lid, but i have long suspected something wrong with the oil delivery.

If I read the other posts correctly there is no adjustment of the dosing rate (I appreciate it is attached to the throttle but 50mph is hardly caning it...), is that so? Are 2T oil leaks into the cylinder likely?

Any thoughts please?

cheers
Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:45 am

Hooked
PK50XL, PK100S, ET3
Joined: 26 Aug 2020
Posts: 306
Location: UK
 
Hooked
PK50XL, PK100S, ET3
Joined: 26 Aug 2020
Posts: 306
Location: UK
Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:45 am linkquote
Did you get some sort of airlock so the level at the start of the journey wasnt correct?
Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:44 am

Ossessionato
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 61 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 90 V5N 50, 01 ET2, 2015 HD Road Glide Special
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 4485
Location: Oceanside, CA
 
Ossessionato
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 61 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 90 V5N 50, 01 ET2, 2015 HD Road Glide Special
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 4485
Location: Oceanside, CA
Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:44 am linkquote
The oil tank screws onto the bottom of the fuel tank. There is a plastic collar joining the two. You probably filled the oil tube so high, its leaking out the plastic collar.

Notice oil weeping out the back of the floorboards?
Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:29 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 6698
Location: San Diego, CA
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 6698
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:29 am linkquote
MJRally wrote:
The oil tank screws onto the bottom of the fuel tank. There is a plastic collar joining the two. You probably filled the oil tube so high, its leaking out the plastic collar.

Notice oil weeping out the back of the floorboards?
How high are you supposed to fill it? How do you avoid overfilling? Never had an autolube yet.
Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:01 am

Ossessionato
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 61 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 90 V5N 50, 01 ET2, 2015 HD Road Glide Special
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 4485
Location: Oceanside, CA
 
Ossessionato
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 61 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 90 V5N 50, 01 ET2, 2015 HD Road Glide Special
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 4485
Location: Oceanside, CA
Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:01 am linkquote
While I've never seen it in writing, messy cleanups have dictated no higher than the black plastic collar.



Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:02 am

parallelogramerist
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3953

 
parallelogramerist
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Posts: 3953

Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:02 am linkquote
If you're loosing that much 2T oil, then i would remove the fuel tank and inspect the oil tank. It could be a cracked sight glass, cracked oil tank, loose plastic compression nut connection between the fuel and oil tank, or leaky gasket at the very bottom of the tank where the little metal elbow is at. It could literally be all of them as well. A new oil tank is inexpensive. One more place for a 2T oil leak is inside the mixer box where the bigger round oil gear is located. There's a round O ring that is inside that assembly. If that O ring goes bad, or if there gets to be an accumulation of swarf inside it, then the 2T oil will gravity feed past that gear and into the crank case. But that's a much slower leaking process though. When all the O rings and gaskets are functional, then you should be able to fill the oil level all the way up to the brim of the fuel tank.
Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:39 pm

Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2019
Posts: 36

 
Member
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Posts: 36

Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:39 pm linkquote
Many thanks to all for that. So it looks like the consensus (so far and without taking the tank out) is a leak rather than over-dosing, even with the fouled plug?

Comments:

I did not know there was a limit on the oil level to the top of the plastic collar under the fuel tank I thought the level was to about 2" below the top of the tube (to allow for splashing up when going over bumps). I have the owner's manual somewhere and will check on case there is a direction there.

I do not see any oil on the leg shields but I do see some oil at the back end (ie towards the rear light) of the carb, which then drips through the box (possibly via the mixture screw grommet) down the crankcase.

Does the tank come out as "easily" as on Vintage models? The fuel tap and fuel hose are problematical there. Any "gotchas" here?

Ref "One more place for a 2T oil leak is inside the mixer box where the bigger round oil gear is located. There's a round O ring that is inside that assembly. If that O ring goes bad, or if there gets to be an accumulation of swarf inside it, then the 2T oil will gravity feed past that gear and into the crank case." is that mixer box accessible via the plate in the bottom of carb box?

I really appreciate the help!
Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:01 pm

parallelogramerist
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3953

 
parallelogramerist
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Posts: 3953

Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:01 pm linkquote
The fuel tank comes out super easy, but it's one of those things that alway drag my feet not to do...for no other reason than i don't like doing it. Probably because it means that it's time to replace a fuel line, air bellows, fuel tap upgrade, or replace a green ignition/kill wire. It never seems cut and dry for me. I'm sure there's a video on youtube somewhere that will show how to go it. I myself usually like to drain most of the fuel from the tank before i remove it. when it comes to removing the hose from the oil tank reservoir, make sure to cap it off in some way. I use a little 1/8" vinyl vacuum cap that you can get from an auto parts store.

I've had two handfuls of oil injection vespas, and i always fill the reservoir up close to the brim. If i have issues with them leaking i fix it.


My thumb and finger are pointing at where the two hoses will need to be removed.


there's an O ring that the gear (under this cover) rotates in.


You can just barely see the teeth on the gear. To remove the O ring, you also have to unscrew the short perpendicular bolt that locks in the O ring housing.

Fri Nov 18, 2022 1:48 pm

Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2019
Posts: 36

 
Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2019
Posts: 36

Fri Nov 18, 2022 1:48 pm linkquote
Cheers for the reply and pictures

So there is no cranked spanner needed to remove the tank like on the VBB and similar models?

Any other particular preventative "while I am there" jobs to do with the tank out?

Thanks in advance

RDS
Sat Nov 19, 2022 3:49 pm

Molto Verboso
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1308
Location: northern New York
 
Molto Verboso
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1308
Location: northern New York
Sat Nov 19, 2022 3:49 pm linkquote
RDS wrote:
Cheers for the reply and pictures

So there is no cranked spanner needed to remove the tank like on the VBB and similar models?

Any other particular preventative "while I am there" jobs to do with the tank out?

Thanks in advance

RDS
I think you are referring to the crowfoot spanned which is used to get the fuel tap from the bottom of the tank.

The tank can be removed with ordinary tools. It's an ass ache to get out and back in again but you get better with practice. It's kind of a rite of passage that you can't avoid as sooner or later, there will be a good reason to get in there. Scooterwest has a really good video on removing and reinstalling the tank. If I can find the link, I will post it.
Sat Nov 19, 2022 3:52 pm

Molto Verboso
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1308
Location: northern New York
 
Molto Verboso
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1308
Location: northern New York
Sat Nov 19, 2022 3:52 pm linkquote
Ok, here it is:

Great video series on going through a P200e.
Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:27 pm

Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2019
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Member
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Posts: 36

Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:27 pm linkquote
many thanks Orwell - good catch, I have managed a VBC tank using the crowfoot; I'll check the vid in the morning.
Sat Nov 19, 2022 7:24 pm

Molto Verboso
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1308
Location: northern New York
 
Molto Verboso
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1308
Location: northern New York
Sat Nov 19, 2022 7:24 pm linkquote
RDS wrote:
many thanks Orwell - good catch, I have managed a VBC tank using the crowfoot; I'll check the vid in the morning.
Ok, cranked spanner. I think you are referring to a ratchet wrench…Yes, if you are removing the nipple from the oil tank to replace the gasket, but the lines themselves are like any fuel line with a hose clamp.
Sat Nov 19, 2022 8:03 pm

parallelogramerist
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3953

 
parallelogramerist
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3953

Sat Nov 19, 2022 8:03 pm linkquote
If you want to just remove the fuel tap, then you'll need that proprietary crow foot wrench. If you want to remove the oil tank reservoir, then you MUST have a 17mm (or 11/16") deep socket. I prefer a 3/8" drive. You'll also have to have socket extension(s). You MUST, MUST have a deep socket and extensions that add up to a minimum 13-5/8" long. Any shorter and the socket won't be able to reach the nut that's located inside the bottom of the oil reservoir!




This adds up to 13-5/8" in length...and that's the bare minimum that will reach the nut!

Sun Nov 20, 2022 4:50 am

Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2019
Posts: 36

 
Member
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Posts: 36

Sun Nov 20, 2022 4:50 am linkquote
thanks both; very helpful pics and links

Please clarify:
1 the cranked crow foot spanner that I used for the VBC scooter is or is not required to remove the tank on the PX 200e?
2 the two extensions and deep well socket etc are going to get very messy so best done when fuel and oil are already low. Once the two attached tanks are out of the frame, they can be drained of the remainder of fluids before separating the two tanks to replace gaskets etc?

cheers

RDS
Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:46 am

parallelogramerist
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3953

 
parallelogramerist
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3953

Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:46 am linkquote
RDS wrote:
thanks both; very helpful pics and links

Please clarify:
1 the cranked crow foot spanner that I used for the VBC scooter is or is not required to remove the tank on the PX 200e?
2 the two extensions and deep well socket etc are going to get very messy so best done when fuel and oil are already low. Once the two attached tanks are out of the frame, they can be drained of the remainder of fluids before separating the two tanks to replace gaskets etc?

cheers

RDS
The crow foot spanner is not needed to remove the tank. The only time it is needed is if you want to remove the fuel tap.

Yes, the socket extensions will be an oily mess. If i know i'm working on the oil tank, what i do is drain both tanks before i remove them from the frame. I will remove the oil tank hose that goes to the carb and simply let the oil gravity drain into a bottle for a day. I'll usually siphon out most of the fuel as well. Once the tank assembly is removed from the frame, then you can drain the fluids the rest of the way. I will use a really wide funnel and shake the rest of the fuel out into a gas can. Same thing for the oil reservoir.

And your gaskets might totally be fine. That large diameter plastic compression nut that on the oil tank might just be loose. Which means it just needs to be tightened up a bit.
Sun Nov 20, 2022 7:32 am

Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2019
Posts: 36

 
Member
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Posts: 36

Sun Nov 20, 2022 7:32 am linkquote
ta for that, so the fuel tap withdraws from inside the fame cavity with the tank as it comes out?

is there sufficient room to withdraw the tank partly, nip up the compression nut without the full drain routine?
Sun Nov 20, 2022 7:36 am

Molto Verboso
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1308
Location: northern New York
 
Molto Verboso
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1308
Location: northern New York
Sun Nov 20, 2022 7:36 am linkquote
I had an oil leak inside the frame. I had just replaced the oil/fuel lines and had everything out. It turned out that the oil hose had slipped a little. Some months later, I had to replace the fuel tap. Out it all came. It will have to come out again to tidy up some wiring, but it's an easier job now. The hardest part for me is getting the sight glass in place. I always end up scraping it, I think because there is some wiring in the way that I will eventually move. I have a spare on hand in case I break it.
Sun Nov 20, 2022 8:54 am

parallelogramerist
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3953

 
parallelogramerist
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3953

Sun Nov 20, 2022 8:54 am linkquote
RDS wrote:
ta for that, so the fuel tap withdraws from inside the fame cavity with the tank as it comes out?

is there sufficient room to withdraw the tank partly, nip up the compression nut without the full drain routine?
Watch that video that Orwell posted up again. That should answer all your questions.

Is there enough room to just partially lift up the tank and tighten up that compression nut? Maybe, maybe not. It would be a tight squeeze to fit your hand in there while the fuel and oil lines are still hooked up. You'd just have to try and see for yourself.

And a pro tip to reinstalling the tank assembly back into the frame. Spray a little bit of silicone on both the sight glass and sigh glass rubber. If you don't have silicone, then use whatever. I've even lubed it up with my spit.
Sun Nov 20, 2022 9:20 am

Molto Verboso
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1308
Location: northern New York
 
Molto Verboso
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1308
Location: northern New York
Sun Nov 20, 2022 9:20 am linkquote
I've used liquid dish soap and spray silicone to slide it past wire bundles and to squeeze the seal around the sight glass.
Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:19 pm

Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2019
Posts: 36

 
Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2019
Posts: 36

Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:19 pm linkquote
yes, good tip.

I spent a day on repairing a leak on domestic waste water and compression joints this week - lubricating the rubber seals on a spigot joint was the only way on one of the inner fittings. Of course, the escaping lube then hindered easy tightening as my gloved hand slipped, but pump pliers carefully used helped. I may have to use them here too.
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