Sat, 19 Nov 2022 22:38:32 +0000

Hooked
2022 Liberty Baci Perugina 150cc
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Posts: 117
Location: Hilo, Hawaii
 
Hooked
2022 Liberty Baci Perugina 150cc
Joined: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 15:54:33 +0000
Posts: 117
Location: Hilo, Hawaii
Sat, 19 Nov 2022 22:38:32 +0000 linkquote
I was going to put this in a response to someone who wrote about black ice in the road now when it is below freezing.
You can get BLACK ICE in 50° weather in Hawaii on the mountain at 6,000 feet up the Big Island of Hawaii when going fron Hilo to Kona over the Daniel K. Inouye Highway going sixty miles an hour. Add some wind chill coming down from the tops of near 14,000 feet Mauna Kea and Mauna Loa onto the road with fog and drizzle it is blinding BLACK ICE on the road. You can't see it in black color on black asphalt in gray fog.
So please do not think you need to be freezing for black ice. You can get it at 50° weather especially with a wind chill at higher elevation.
We get in Hawaii. Ride safe.
Aloha

Update: Let me more clear about the wind chill. It is a wind coming down from about the near 14,000 foot peaks of the mountain onto the 6,000 foot elevation road below. That can blow frost, snow and black ice onto the asphalt highway where the cold weather is 50° and gets into the 40s also. Black ice is a reality.

Last edited by Bigdaddy808 on Sun, 20 Nov 2022 02:51:36 +0000; edited 2 times
Sat, 19 Nov 2022 22:59:50 +0000

Veni, Vidi, Posti
LX190 Friday afternoon special, Primavera, some pushbikes
Joined: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 21:16:28 +0000
Posts: 8639
Location: Hermit Kingdom
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
LX190 Friday afternoon special, Primavera, some pushbikes
Joined: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 21:16:28 +0000
Posts: 8639
Location: Hermit Kingdom
Sat, 19 Nov 2022 22:59:50 +0000 linkquote
Freezing point doesn't change appreciably with altitude anywhere you're likely to be anytime soon.
Yes ice does hang around when the weather warms up but that can be at any altitude.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_diagram



Sat, 19 Nov 2022 23:10:02 +0000

Ossessionato
Looking for the next one, probably electric
Joined: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:07:29 +0000
Posts: 3549
Location: Babcock Ranch, Florida
 
Ossessionato
Looking for the next one, probably electric
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Posts: 3549
Location: Babcock Ranch, Florida
Sat, 19 Nov 2022 23:10:02 +0000 linkquote
"Wind chill factor" has nothing to do with ice on the roads. Wind chill is only the relationship between wind, temperature, and PERCEIVED cold on the skin. No human, no skin, no wind chill.
Sun, 20 Nov 2022 01:26:02 +0000

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2012 Genuine Stella 150 4T "Penultimate"
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Posts: 933
Location: Texas
 
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Sun, 20 Nov 2022 01:26:02 +0000 linkquote
It's not wind chill, it's the standard lapse rate doing the deed.

Start with 50 degrees F at sea level, standard day, which equals 10 degrees C.

The adibiatic lapse rate is 1.5-3.0 degrees C per thousand feet of altitude gained, depending on moisture saturation.

So, 5000 feet altitude gained, subtract 10 degrees C (@ 2 degrees per 1000 feet) and you get 0 degrees C. Or, the freezing point of water.
Sun, 20 Nov 2022 02:45:57 +0000

Hooked
2022 Liberty Baci Perugina 150cc
Joined: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 15:54:33 +0000
Posts: 117
Location: Hilo, Hawaii
 
Hooked
2022 Liberty Baci Perugina 150cc
Joined: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 15:54:33 +0000
Posts: 117
Location: Hilo, Hawaii
Sun, 20 Nov 2022 02:45:57 +0000 linkquote
znomit wrote:
Freezing point doesn't change appreciably with altitude anywhere you're likely to be anytime soon.
Yes ice does hang around when the weather warms up but that can be at any altitude.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_diagram
Update: Let me more clear about the wind chill. It is a wind coming down from about the near 14,000 foot peaks of the mountain onto the 6,000 foot elevation road below. That can blow frost, snow and black ice onto the asphalt highway where the cold weather is 50° and gets into the 40s also. Black ice is a reality.
Sun, 20 Nov 2022 02:48:27 +0000

Hooked
2022 Liberty Baci Perugina 150cc
Joined: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 15:54:33 +0000
Posts: 117
Location: Hilo, Hawaii
 
Hooked
2022 Liberty Baci Perugina 150cc
Joined: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 15:54:33 +0000
Posts: 117
Location: Hilo, Hawaii
Sun, 20 Nov 2022 02:48:27 +0000 linkquote
25BIKEZ wrote:
It's not wind chill, it's the standard lapse rate doing the deed.

Start with 50 degrees F at sea level, standard day, which equals 10 degrees C.

The adibiatic lapse rate is 1.5-3.0 degrees C per thousand feet of altitude gained, depending on moisture saturation.

So, 5000 feet altitude gained, subtract 10 degrees C (@ 2 degrees per 1000 feet) and you get 0 degrees C. Or, the freezing point of water.
Excellent point. Mahalo (Thank you)
Aloha
Sun, 20 Nov 2022 03:57:16 +0000

Ossessionato
LXV 150 3v ie. Midnight Blue (Sold) Now Honda Zoomer X
Joined: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 04:44:45 +0000
Posts: 3833
Location: Kingdom of Lanna
 
Ossessionato
LXV 150 3v ie. Midnight Blue (Sold) Now Honda Zoomer X
Joined: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 04:44:45 +0000
Posts: 3833
Location: Kingdom of Lanna
Sun, 20 Nov 2022 03:57:16 +0000 linkquote
The ice warning light on a previous car came on at below 4C or 40F.
Sun, 20 Nov 2022 03:59:30 +0000

Ossessionato
2019 Supertech (EURO3/APAC 38,000km)
Joined: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 02:36:54 +0000
Posts: 2367
Location: Batmania aka Melbourne, Australia
 
Ossessionato
2019 Supertech (EURO3/APAC 38,000km)
Joined: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 02:36:54 +0000
Posts: 2367
Location: Batmania aka Melbourne, Australia
Sun, 20 Nov 2022 03:59:30 +0000 linkquote
waspmike wrote:
The ice warning light on a previous car came on at below 4C or 40F.
Same as my Supertech
Sun, 20 Nov 2022 05:21:32 +0000

Ossessionato
Medley 150
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Location: Adelaide
 
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Medley 150
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Location: Adelaide
Sun, 20 Nov 2022 05:21:32 +0000 linkquote
Bigdaddy808 wrote:
You can get BLACK ICE in 50° weather in Hawaii on the mountain at 6,000 feet up the Big Island of Hawaii when going fron Hilo to Kona over the Daniel K. Inouye Highway going sixty miles an hour.
Don't drink and ride.



Mon, 21 Nov 2022 04:50:45 +0000

Hooked
2022 Liberty Baci Perugina 150cc
Joined: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 15:54:33 +0000
Posts: 117
Location: Hilo, Hawaii
 
Hooked
2022 Liberty Baci Perugina 150cc
Joined: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 15:54:33 +0000
Posts: 117
Location: Hilo, Hawaii
Mon, 21 Nov 2022 04:50:45 +0000 linkquote
Sledge wrote:
Don't drink and ride.
Cheers
Mon, 21 Nov 2022 20:55:25 +0000

Ossessionato
2013 Vespa 300 Super, 2022 Kymco AK 550
Joined: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 23:36:10 +0000
Posts: 2826
Location: Minneapolis USA
 
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2013 Vespa 300 Super, 2022 Kymco AK 550
Joined: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 23:36:10 +0000
Posts: 2826
Location: Minneapolis USA
Mon, 21 Nov 2022 20:55:25 +0000 linkquote
Bigdaddy808,

I would never have imagined Hawaii would have black ice.

You still have some of the best all season scooter riding weather in
the world. Every road in Frostbite Falls Minnesota has that mountain
pass ice condition.

25BIKE - you sir get the weather math man honorable mention on this one.
I thought I would have to pull out my old slide rule to keep up with you.
Good on you.

Bob Copeland




The black ice mountain pass ran right through my office parking lot this week.
I had no idea I was in Hawaii.

Tue, 22 Nov 2022 00:53:39 +0000

Hooked
2022 Liberty Baci Perugina 150cc
Joined: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 15:54:33 +0000
Posts: 117
Location: Hilo, Hawaii
 
Hooked
2022 Liberty Baci Perugina 150cc
Joined: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 15:54:33 +0000
Posts: 117
Location: Hilo, Hawaii
Tue, 22 Nov 2022 00:53:39 +0000 linkquote
Bob Copeland wrote:
Bigdaddy808,

I would never have imagined Hawaii would have black ice.

You still have some of the best all season scooter riding weather in
the world. Every road in Frostbite Falls Minnesota has that mountain
pass ice condition.

25BIKE - you sir get the weather math man honorable mention on this one.
I thought I would have to pull out my old slide rule to keep up with you.
Good on you.

Bob Copeland
Also Mr. Copeland "The black ice mountain pass ran right through my office parking lot this week.
I had no idea I was in Hawaii"
You Mr. Copeland appear to have plenty of ALOHA in your heart. I promise you are always in Hawaii.!!!!!
Aloha again
Tue, 22 Nov 2022 03:42:51 +0000

Addicted
2012 Genuine Stella 150 4T "Penultimate"
Joined: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 19:11:08 +0000
Posts: 933
Location: Texas
 
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2012 Genuine Stella 150 4T "Penultimate"
Joined: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 19:11:08 +0000
Posts: 933
Location: Texas
Tue, 22 Nov 2022 03:42:51 +0000 linkquote
Bob Copeland wrote:
Bigdaddy808,

I would never have imagined Hawaii would have black ice.

You still have some of the best all season scooter riding weather in
the world. Every road in Frostbite Falls Minnesota has that mountain
pass ice condition.

25BIKE - you sir get the weather math man honorable mention on this one.
I thought I would have to pull out my old slide rule to keep up with you.
Good on you.

Bob Copeland
One of the many "memorize it because we told you to" factoids from my military aviation career. If I'm not careful, I turn into Cliff Clavin. Fortunately, I have a wife of 47 years to stop me before I do.

FWIW, I have a nice yellow aluminum Pickett dual log slide rule with a monogrammed belt case in my office closet. Just in case.
Tue, 22 Nov 2022 13:09:04 +0000

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2006 GTS 250
Joined: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 00:24:46 +0000
Posts: 10036
Location: KS USA
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2006 GTS 250
Joined: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 00:24:46 +0000
Posts: 10036
Location: KS USA
Tue, 22 Nov 2022 13:09:04 +0000 linkquote
It was there that I first fell in love with scooters. I came back and got my first Vespa GTS 250.



Tue, 22 Nov 2022 16:53:06 +0000

Ossessionato
2007 250 GTS, 1980 P200E, 2010 ThunderFly 190 (SOLD)
Joined: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 02:56:59 +0000
Posts: 3169
Location: Springboro, OH
 
Ossessionato
2007 250 GTS, 1980 P200E, 2010 ThunderFly 190 (SOLD)
Joined: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 02:56:59 +0000
Posts: 3169
Location: Springboro, OH
Tue, 22 Nov 2022 16:53:06 +0000 linkquote
I was fortunate enough to rent a City Com 300 while on Maui a few years ago.







Tue, 22 Nov 2022 17:23:48 +0000

Molto Verboso
2009 Vespa S50(LX150 motor swap), 2006 Vespa GTS250ie
Joined: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 07:06:05 +0000
Posts: 1041
Location: Toronto, Canada
 
Molto Verboso
2009 Vespa S50(LX150 motor swap), 2006 Vespa GTS250ie
Joined: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 07:06:05 +0000
Posts: 1041
Location: Toronto, Canada
Tue, 22 Nov 2022 17:23:48 +0000 linkquote
You can have black ice at any temperature, for a moment.

Here we typically have wet surfaces by day, and then ice at night when temperatures drop and everything freezes over. In the morning, though it's warmer, not all of that ice has melted yet. You just know to look for any dips in surfaces where water might have previously pooled and assume they could still be ice and ride around. Not a big deal.
Tue, 22 Nov 2022 17:42:21 +0000

Ossessionato
BV350, Primavera 150, Yamaha Zuma 125
Joined: Thu, 06 Jun 2013 13:22:21 +0000
Posts: 3746
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
 
Ossessionato
BV350, Primavera 150, Yamaha Zuma 125
Joined: Thu, 06 Jun 2013 13:22:21 +0000
Posts: 3746
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
Tue, 22 Nov 2022 17:42:21 +0000 linkquote
What I know as "black ice" occurs in extremely cold temperatures when the moisture in car exhaust instantly freezes on contact with the cold road surface. The road may be completely ice-free except in spots where cars have stopped at stoplights and left a thin, almost invisible coating of ice. You may get some warning of it if you see cars sliding to a stop and struggling to get moving again.
Tue, 22 Nov 2022 19:33:07 +0000

Hooked
Joined: Sat, 21 May 2022 10:04:15 +0000
Posts: 317

 
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Posts: 317

Tue, 22 Nov 2022 19:33:07 +0000 linkquote
I think evaporative cooling has a role in icing/frosting the roads too...

Can wind speed this process up? It depends on the amount of water, and the temperature of the wind. Wind can also dry things out in other conditions.

Far too complicated for me this late in the day. 😵‍💫
Tue, 22 Nov 2022 21:18:33 +0000

Ossessionato
2013 Vespa 300 Super, 2022 Kymco AK 550
Joined: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 23:36:10 +0000
Posts: 2826
Location: Minneapolis USA
 
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2013 Vespa 300 Super, 2022 Kymco AK 550
Joined: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 23:36:10 +0000
Posts: 2826
Location: Minneapolis USA
Tue, 22 Nov 2022 21:18:33 +0000 linkquote
25BIKEZ,

I knew you had to have a slide rule somewhere near by. I also
expect you find math easy and have the brain lobe for this function.

Full Disclosure: I do not have this math aptitude or natural ability.
My Dad had it and my son has it. It jumped over me. I think this may
be common. It is like you have it or you don't.

I am proud of my son Brian. He works for the Target Corporation and is
their Director of Data Scientists. He started in data analytics, then
artificial intelligence, then data science. I do understand correlations and
percentages - then I am done.

My Dad told me you will not be good at everything - surround yourself
with employees who are.

So good on you 25BIKEZ.

Bob Copeland


I got by in the business world of sales with 1 + 2, or what percentage are you up this year.

Wed, 23 Nov 2022 16:35:02 +0000

Addicted
2012 Genuine Stella 150 4T "Penultimate"
Joined: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 19:11:08 +0000
Posts: 933
Location: Texas
 
Addicted
2012 Genuine Stella 150 4T "Penultimate"
Joined: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 19:11:08 +0000
Posts: 933
Location: Texas
Wed, 23 Nov 2022 16:35:02 +0000 linkquote
Bob Copeland wrote:
25BIKEZ,

I knew you had to have a slide rule somewhere near by. I also
expect you find math easy and have the brain lobe for this function.

Full Disclosure: I do not have this math aptitude or natural ability.
My Dad had it and my son has it. It jumped over me. I think this may
be common. It is like you have it or you don't.

I am proud of my son Brian. He works for the Target Corporation and is
their Director of Data Scientists. He started in data analytics, then
artificial intelligence, then data science. I do understand correlations and
percentages - then I am done.

My Dad told me you will not be good at everything - surround yourself
with employees who are.

So good on you 25BIKEZ.

Bob Copeland
Thanks for the kind words. I gave up on the computer science/math career my second year of college. Ended up with a History degree, which I found (and still find) way more interesting. Got a graduate degree in International Politics (also more interesting, if not very useful) while I was in the Air Force. I totally agree with your premise that leading and managing good people is way better than trying to be the smartest guy in the room all the time. There's always somebody with better ideas and a good leader and manager should nurture them. Take care and have a good holiday season.
   

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