Modern Vespa

Losing my mind in Montana not being able to ride, but plenty of time to wrench & read up on the forum. Figured I'd start a thread on my 63' All State VNB rebuild which is fairly complete but could still be improved.

I went with the Mazz cut crank and Pinasco 177 kit as I thought this was my best bet. Wish I would've looked into the VMC kit though. Everything went fine but when I went to check squish I was shocked that it was like 3mm or something.

Bike has plenty of power, did almost 60 immediately not even holding wide open. I don't necessarily need more of anything just wanna tune what I have.

Carb is a si 20/20, I'm still working through jetting but read that Pinasco recommends a 108 main, I was at 115 and higher. Jetting now, held up by snow, I'm at 160/BE3/115 with a 38/120 about 1.5 on air/fuel. Would I benefit from a bigger carb setup? I have a si 24/24 on my P200 I could use and upgrade that as well.

What are people doing for squish, probably just running it but I plan to maybe wet sand the head down to get my squish closer to 1mm? Any advice welcomed, is there a better head? How do the other kit options compare to my choice?

...

the Pinasco 177 is NOT a race cylinder. more of a "super-stock" cylinder.

You very well could set the head up on a lathe and adjust the volume/squish/squish angle.

a few people have added a VMC head. don't know where you end up, but i read it's better than stock. Remember, it's not just the squish, but also Volume and squish angle that enter the formula.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/cylinder-head-vmc-177-cc_84140700?q=vmc%20head

Thanks Gick, appreciate the info. I'm not disappointed by any means from the Pinasco, it will just haunt me to not have the squish optimal, which is definitely something I'm still learning about! As are Vespas in general.

I'll look at that head option and keep researching.

A few years ago, I basically went with the same set up as you on a '66 Allstate Sprint - 20/20 carb, Pinasco and a P series exhaust. I was really happy with the performance boost and since I am dumb as a box of rocks when it comes to tuning, I left well enough alone.. That and I figured that the brakes weren't up to the task of stopping a scoot with much more power. Anyhow, the real experts will be along to give you real advice instead of my babblings... Good luck with it, good looking scoot.

echoing what nick mentioned in that the 177 isn't really "racy" per se but more of an "optimized" cylinder. the VMC head would probably be the easiest move in that you kind of sort of know what you're getting volume and angle wise and you could dial it in with base thickness and circle back to match the piston if the ports become obscured.

alternatively, you could top the barrel

personally, I'd maybe play with the exhaust a small amount and see if I could get a little more exhaust on it.

I'd probably stay with a 20/20 and just make sure that the carb box and inlet are matched and flowed to that. you could always try the 24 but more than likely the bottom end is gonna fall out of it unless you have really short gears.

what pipe are you running?

BGM Big Box Touring. What did you think of where I left off on my jetting? I'm at 3k feet. The air filter has a big cutout in it from the PO.

"Top the barrel"...?

Stock gears and remember 3 speed. I wanted more torque than top so I left them alone. I'll rarely do 60 on this scoot.

the jetting doesn't seem that far off, but if you necked down to a 120 corrector I'd bet it cleans up a tad more and you'd be down closer to 110

when you say "big cut out" can you post a pic?

top of the barrel=top of the cylinder. it used to be common practice to top and tail cylinders when tuning-- adjusting port timing, squish and piston placement by cutting the base or top of the barrel. but with the advent of all the new hotness, a lot of that is no longer necessary.

stock 3spd, I'd keep that 20 on there. dial in the squish. leave everything be in the barrel adjustment wise. work on your timing and jetting and call it done.

Read my mind on the pic I was just stuck at work. Here it is...

I did order a 140 air corrector, will get a 120 next time. Jetting is super close, I have my P200 dialed. Timing is at 19mm rn dead nuts.

I guess my big hang-up was why would Pinasco release something with roughly 3.5mm squish and MORE importantly can the motor perform properly that way. I think as of now I may go VMC head as I kinda wish I did that kit in hindsight, it's kinda half and half which I think is great. No harm in fkn with the Pinasco head too.

I'm damn close to mission accomplished with this one. Plenty fast for 8", completely different riding experience than my P200.

Hey HMC,

I've got a 62 Allstate (VNB2), three speed also.

I've got the Pinasco 177 2-port kit, Mazz crank (57mm), VAPE 12VAC, LML clutch,stock gearing, 24/24 carb.

I had a hard time dialing in the 20/20 carb so tried the 24/24 and had no problems. But soon as I put a temp gauge on the plug I found out I was running hot. These 2-port kits have an internal third Port in the cylinder that tends to heat them up quite a bit.

I tried setting it up like a P200 but it needed to be jetted way richer to keep it cool, or just below 300f when I run it WOT for 10 minutes

I've started a couple of threads about this scooter and my friend Chris and I rebuilt two VNB engines at the same time and put this kit on both.

62 Allstate Cruisaire - getting it back on the road

The tale of two rebuilds - VNB2 and VNB5

Thanks for that, I'll read those threads!

How do you like the Vape...it's on the list.

The early filters are different. Use this filter for 20.20 and 24.24, very well made. https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/air-filter-piaggio-si-2424_40250000?q=Si%2024.24%20filter

You are giving this cylinder much more credit than it deserves. for the price, it delivers a few more CC's, better quality piston and cylinder than the stock Indian made 150 cc. That being said, Don't expect the quality and engineering of say VMC/BGM.

You're 100 percent right Gick. And thanks for the recommendation of filter.

All part of learning these machines. For example my first Vespa P200 I had the motor apart multiple times and in hindsight I would've put a real nice crank in, built the bottom end to take whatever I eventually learned I wanted the top end to be. I love the process though.

I came across one of these threads in my research. Still reading through the other but I did find it ironic, or not at all that I tried to put the kit on a stock crank and the con rod/lack of wrist pin bearing stuck after 10 mins just like yours did. Luckily I sensed something was wrong early. As I've learned, which is the reason they did away that type of crank. That also taught to me pay attention to what Vespa did as years progressed, the improvements and maybe mimic some of that with these older ones.

It works perfect for my needs. I'm running the original 6v harness, and just changed out the horn, and bulbs. I haven't had a bulb blow or burn out since I installed it a few years ago.

My power needs are not great though - I don't ride it at night and always use hand signals because that back brake light is, well, em, more of a penlight than a brake light. I just figure it's a 60 year old machine, and I don't need to make it into anything it's not, just let me keep up with traffic.

I bring that up because my brain goes all over the map - If I want DC I could run super bright lights, and a spotlight, and a superbright taillight, and a modern speedo, yeah, that'd be cool, and...etc, etc....

Then I go for a ride and realize it's perfect just how it is right now. I can run it WOT and it's not going to seize, it'll keep up with the traffic on the coast where I live, and it is stable and super fun to drive. Perfect...

Really enjoyed reading the thread! Good to know on the ignition, I went down the same rabbit hole looking into it and just straight up didn't have the money. Stock stator wiring was toast but I actually successfully fixed the wiring, gained some experience and haven't had an issue yet. Don't even get me started on that SIP digi speedo. lol

I also have a pen light tailight haha. Saving up for a proper one as the insides are home-made by yours truly.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/cylinder-head-malossi-mk-iii-177-cc-by-mmw-polini-dr-pinasco-177_38348210?q=177%20head

Thoughts on the Malossi?

No no no let's dig in to that digital speedo! That damn thing is driving me insane. Mostly user error I think but still. What a pain in the ass.

Which 177 Pinasco kit do you have?? Is it the one with the inside lip at the top??

https://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Pinasco/25030804

Inside lip - I've got the same one...

Can't see the top. Does it have a recessed lip for the head?? If yes, that Malossi head will leak. There's a different MMW version for these types of cylinders that comes with a 1mm base gasket…

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/cylinder-head-malossi-mk-iii-177-cc-by-mmw-177-pinasco-alu_38348410

It does have the lip if I remember right. I actually uploaded the wrong link my bad.

Solid info thank u

I have a BGM head on an alum Pinasco 177 (with the recess) right now and it doesn't seem to be leaking. I had to fiddle with different head gaskets but eventually got the swish down to around 1.5mm.

Can't honestly say it made a whole lot a difference. The transfers are what they are. It's a solid "stock plus" kit. It wasn't designed to be a screamer.

If I was.to do it all over, I'd go with a 60mm crank and a 1.5mm base gasket and call it a day.

It's plenty fast now, but I can't help but wonder what I left on the table by not going with a 60 mm crank...

What's the benefit of the alu vs. cast kit? And what's the screamer build then?! 😆

Isn't it great how we come to these conclusions AFTER the bike is built lol.

If I had to do my P200 over again I'd go totally different. BUT, those things influence the next build(s) & they just get better.

I also went from zero Vespa experience to completely rebuilding 2 and becoming obsessed. Tons of learning to do still. I have around 20 vintage bikes. NOTHING compares to a Vespa.

The only setup besides the 60mm and 2-port 177 kit is to add some material to the cases and cut in a third Port. Then a BGM or VMC kit would be the way to go...

That's what I've seen anyway. Anybody else have any other screamer plan ideas for VNB cases?

I'll be getting into my mismatched VBB case build in January.
Still not sure which way I'm gonna go cut the other half of the third port or fill the open half in. I could honestly go either way and be fine. A 177 Pinasco which seems just like stock plus, which is all I'm after anyways for the build. I already have alumibond to fill the port so I may just try that first and if I mess up then I can still send it out to get welded and cut. I think I just talked myself into the Pinasco.

Interesting convo.
My &.02.
Use the third port!
It's aimed at the head - so it acts like a fire hose spraying coolant on the head as u run.

VMC and BMG as others have noted are great bang for the buck.

As for iron vs aluminum question you asked earlier: iron is old tech.
Aluminum new.

What you get with the new: much less chance of seizing. If u are adding any horsepower, the combo of third port for cooking, and aluminum for seize guard, are great.

Doing it with an old iron two port cylinder is a tight rope act at best - and you will likely have less HP to combine with the lower reliability IN A TUNED ENGINE.

Interesting that we're talking about 3rd ports. The dude I bought the scooter from new nothing about it but said it was a 125 but was now a 150 per the PO. Then I found a sticky note in the storage compartment that said 125 now 150 2 port now 3 port. But...there was no 3rd port, it was a 150 jug and piston with the original 125 head... meaning the combustion chamber was too small.

Hated my first Vespa so much I bought another! 63' Allstate

I've had a good experience with installation of a new Pinasco iron 177 kit in my newly rebuilt '64 VBB. Stock VBB crank in good shape; new small end bearing.
Carb is rebuilt dell'orto 20/20 with drilled heart for both main and idle. I'm at about 300' above sea level. Just below foothills of eastern Berkshires.

IIRC, my jetting wound up at 160, BE3 and 118 main, with I think 45-140 idle.

Exhaust is new Malossi power classic for P125-150, and I like it. Whole kit is powerful and smooth -- so far, no probs. New wiring loom but stock stator all cleaned up with new points + condenser and still 6v batteryless.

I have 500+ miles on this and just switched in autumn down to 2.5% premix from orig. recommended 3% for break-in.

What spark plug are you using?

B8hs

Realise it's going fine but will last a lot longer with an AC140.

Hi Jack. Sounds like I should consider the ac140. With that addition, any other changes to jetting etc required? Tks

I did that on my buddies VNB and it cleaned up real nice.

It will likely change everything. I would start as you are but with AC140/BE3/118 55/160 undrilled filter
Make the main jet splutter at WOT in 2nd, reduce it until it is just clean.

Come spring I will mess with this and see where it takes me. Jack, I get the feeling you are into velocity.