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Molto Verboso
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
I saw someone die today 15 feet away from me. I stood there totally helpless, shocked by the chaos around me. Someone in front of me pulled out on a sport bike and the sport bike T-boned the SUV. I filled out 2 police reports and did a recorded interview with the crash investigation team. I'm still shook-up by the whole event. The bike rider was my age and build. The person who pulled out in front of him was a lady in her late 60's/early 70's. She said didn't see the bike.

About 30 minutes before this whole nightmare happened I was at work looking at motorcycle reviews on YouTube and dreaming of a good lunch. So the lesson for this whole incident is stay aware of your surroundings when riding. Watch the cars on side streets extra good. I know it's a risk riding and we've discussed this before, but it still is a horrible experience when seeing a rider go down and.....

I later remembered I have a dash cam in the car. I swapped vehicles with my wife before driving into work today. I pulled the SDmicro card and secured it in my book bag. I contacted the police crash team and hope that 1) The camera actually worked. I can never keep a connection to the dash cam with my phone. And 2) If it actually recorded then it helps someone somehow.
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UTC quote
That's bad. I broke my collar bone in a similar situation, and called myself lucky. I hope the guy's family will be OK, after some time.
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UTC quote
A terrible thing to have to witness, it just drives home how delicate life is and how our very existence is brief and transitory.

Consider trauma counselling if it has affected you deeply.
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UTC quote
Touring300 wrote:
A terrible thing to have to witness, it just drives home how delicate life is and how our very existence is brief and transitory.

Consider trauma counselling if it has affected you deeply.
Yes to both.

When I was 16 I saw a woman pedestrian get run over by a car and killed. I can still play out the scene in my mind like a video. This was in 1965.
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Molto Verboso
2023 Genuine Buddy 125
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Outside of sleeping like trash last night I'll be okay. I've seen 2 people, on different occasions, get shot and die in front of me. And when I rode rocket bikes back in the 90's we had a death on almost every group ride. I stopped getting to know my fellow riders because I got tired of going to funerals.

Life is fragile. My PSA in all of this is be extra aware, especially during the holidays. Everyone is in a extra rush to get nowhere important. I was driving yesterday because I was dropping my wife off to pick up her car from the shop, and I'm driving today because its supposed to dump rain later today. Then I'm off work for 2 weeks. But I did stop looking at a new bike/scooter. When the Liberty dies I'm done riding. I'll just get another electric bicycle again. Car drivers are getting more reckless and they seem to care less and less for others safety.
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UTC quote
RIP Rocketman 🙏

A cautionary tale.
Got to be on high alert this time of year, even the usually good drivers are scurrying around making poor and rude decisions likely due to a lot of extra undue pressures they are putting on themselves.

Santiago and adjacent Live Oak Canyon is one of our go to rides but been hitting the beach loop with my kids lately.


https://nypost.com/2022/12/18/ferrari-splits-in-half-kills-one-in-california-car-crash/
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2018 LIBERTY 150S, 2013 Kymco LIKE200iLX
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UTC quote
Yeah, a lot of vets would second the recommendation that a talk with a professional could help with adjusting to what you've experienced.


20yr old medic in Vietnam more than half a century ago...
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UTC quote
Sad Event,

Surely makes any other issues you routinely deal with seem small.

The insurance loss numbers on sport bikes are not good.

I hope you do okay dealing with the after impact.

Bob Copeland
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UTC quote
sc00ter wrote:
And when I rode rocket bikes back in the 90's we had a death on almost every group ride. I stopped getting to know my fellow riders because I got tired of going to funerals.
Geez! That sounds more like a combat tour of duty than something anyone does for fun.
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UTC quote
Another SMIDSY.

It's worth reading this report by MAG UK (14 pages) in full - get shakin' that Z-motion folks!
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
sc00ter wrote:
I saw someone die today 15 feet away from me. I stood there totally helpless, shocked by the chaos around me. Someone in front of me pulled out on a sport bike and the sport bike T-boned the SUV. I filled out 2 police reports and did a recorded interview with the crash investigation team. I'm still shook-up by the whole event. The bike rider was my age and build. The person who pulled out in front of him was a lady in her late 60's/early 70's. She said didn't see the bike.
(...)
You are shocked, understandable. But can you clarify who hit who? Did the sports bike hit the SUV in the side or was it the SUV that hit the sports bike in the side?

Sorry for asking.
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UTC quote
sc00ter wrote:
Outside of sleeping like trash last night I'll be okay. I've seen 2 people, on different occasions, get shot and die in front of me. And when I rode rocket bikes back in the 90's we had a death on almost every group ride. I stopped getting to know my fellow riders because I got tired of going to funerals.

Life is fragile. My PSA in all of this is be extra aware, especially during the holidays. Everyone is in a extra rush to get nowhere important. I was driving yesterday because I was dropping my wife off to pick up her car from the shop, and I'm driving today because its supposed to dump rain later today. Then I'm off work for 2 weeks. But I did stop looking at a new bike/scooter. When the Liberty dies I'm done riding. I'll just get another electric bicycle again. Car drivers are getting more reckless and they seem to care less and less for others safety.
I have witnessed, and one time been involved in terrible accidents, involving 4 wheel vehicles and 2 wheel vehicles, that pop up in my mind from time to time, even after decades have passed. I can live with the visions but have become a much safer driver then I was years ago . May all that witness horrible scenes be able to bear the memories without being adversly afected.
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UTC quote
Parsing the original post would suggest the car pulled out from a side street into the path of the bike, which then hit the side of the car.
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
So the video from my dash cam really made this crash weird. The bike was traveling much faster than I thought, much faster. It is now estimated to be going 70+ in a 45 zone. The footage came out incredible, not that I'm proud so to speak, but the crash team was going "Wow!" and "Interesting....." the whole time. Will update when the dust settles.
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UTC quote
sc00ter wrote:
So the video from my dash cam really made this crash weird. The bike was traveling much faster than I thought, much faster. It is now estimated to be going 70+ in a 45 zone. The footage came out incredible, not that I'm proud so to speak, but the crash team was going "Wow!" and "Interesting....." the whole time. Will update when the dust settles.
interesting update. personally I am a bit speedy but not that much (not trying to be negative - just self reflection)
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UTC quote
About a year ago, I had a more or less comparable experience. I was riding behind a Volvo V70. The traffic light turned orange and then red and the kid in the Volvo though he could make the orange/red light by accellerating instead of just braking for the red light, which he should have done.

Cross traffic got green and the guy in the little Suzuki who turned onto the road didn't stand a chance. He got t-boned by the 1,600 kg Volvo at about 90 km/h and died on the scene.

Of course he should have looked if the road was clear and there wasn't an idiot taking the red light, but sadly he didn't and paid the ultimate price.

It happened all right before me and is again getting fresh in my memory by this thread.

I was on the scene the whole time, filing out police reports and stuff. After a couple of days I was called by trauma counseling and at first I thought "We really live in an incredible country, I was only a witness, I'm not the victim!" but after talking to the lady for almost an hour I realised this event had made a huge impact on my life.

So I fully agree with Touring300; even if you think you're o.k., at least consider trauma counseling. I know it helped me deal with seeing this happen right in front of me.

Best wishes!
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70+ in a 45 should release the lady driver of a significant degree if blame.
Fool aboard the rocket in a built-up area...did it once too often.
O.S.
⚠️ Last edited by OldSchooot on UTC; edited 1 time
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UTC quote
Hate to pile on with free advice, but even experienced cops and EMTs are severely traumatized by an experience like yours. My daughter wrote her doctoral thesis on the neurobiology of traumatic stress. Like an X-ray of a broken arm, brain scans show the injury to your system and how your brain is responding as you heal. Imagine how your kitchen floor would look after an earthquake. It'll take your brain a month or more to clean up that mess on the floor and put stuff back on the shelves. Just keep an eye on yourself for a while, and avoid making quick or very important decisions during this recovery period. I guarantee, a year from now, you'll look back at a few things you did or felt during this period and wonder what you were thinking!
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Very well said.
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Yes Pebowles, good words and thank you.
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UTC quote
Thanks for sharing. We need to hear these things to keep ourselves grounded as well.
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Got the other Momento M6 installed in the Subaru, so now both cars have working front/rear cameras. For my scooter, I'm torn between a GoPro Hero 11 or a DJI 3. I watched a TON of reviews and wow, I over-researched!
⬆️    About 1 year elapsed    ⬇️
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
FINALLY went to court (10-11-2023). Not only was the police officer there but the crash team leader showed up. The lady who caused the crash by not stopping lawyered-up. Breakdown of the day in court for anyone interested.
I show up early to review the case with the crash team.
The lady's lawyer said he wasn't going to contest the case and have her plead guilty for failing to yield right away causing an accident.
The crash team says I can leave if I want. Nope, I'm staying!
The lady's lawyer walks in and looks shocked I'm still sitting in the rows.
Our case gets called up for trial.
The judge discloses she has a family member who works for the crash team and the lady's lawyer says "He was fine with that." and says to proceed.
The crash team plays the video footage in court.
The whole court room gasp at the moment of impact and the judge got visibly shaken.
I hated watching that video again.
The crash team also had the black box data from her early 2000's Chevy SUV, showing she slowed to 4mph and was doing 8mph at time of impact.
The lady's lawyer mentioned the bikes rate of speed. The judge said that was a civil case issue, and had no impact on this case final judgement..
Lady was found guilty and fined $50. The judge told her a civil case was a now a VERY serious possibility and she should be ready.
The officer and the crash team guy are pleased we got the motorcycle rider some justice since he cant do it himself.
Sorry so long but at least this end of the case is now closed!
Side notes of interest:
It took 7 months for the police to get the autopsy report from the deceased guys son. Son was being a pain in the butt the whole time to the police.
The waiting for the autopsy results postponed the first court date.
Got postponed again when the lady lawyered-up.
I still hate riding past the crash scene on my scooter. Still dangerous and nothing has benn done or changed in that location to imporve safety.
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Scooter : first of all, good for you for hanging in there. I was going to comment when you first posted, but ganging up at the time didn't seem like a good idea. In my case, I had an older, wiser riding partner that was killed 50 feet in front of me. I was 18 at the time, had only been riding for a few years and I kept seeing the guy ride a Triumph Bonneville along the beach road I frequented. Eventually, we ran into each other getting a cold drink at a store and struck up a friendship. He was 26 years old, police officer, married for a few years with a 1 year old daughter. He rode for pleasure and to relieve stress from the job. We had been riding about 6 months together and I learned a lot. But one day as he was riding ahead an elderly lady ran the red light, hit him, knocked him off the bike into a concrete pole. never hit the brakes, then tried to take off. Someone else in a car blocked her escape. When it went to court, she was only going to charged with running a red light, which at the time in Florida was a common judgement. The widow's lawyer would have none of it with the driver being charged with vehicular manslaughter, attempting to leave the scene, running a red light, violating his civil rights, etc.... Eventually a lawsuit was settled with the help of the witness (me) and the police benevolent association. This took a couple years to sort out and I dreaded going to court every time to relive it and be harassed by the opposing lawyer, but in the end it was worth it to see justice done with a settlement for his widow. One final thing: I hate to say this, but if he had not been a police officer and had the backing of the association, it would have been a ticket, slap in the wrist and lady would have kept driving on her merry way. I've seen it happen too many times.
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
sc00ter wrote:
Lady was found guilty and fined $50. The judge told her a civil case was a now a VERY serious possibility and she should be ready.
The officer and the crash team guy are pleased we got the motorcycle rider some justice since he cant do it himself.
$50.00 fine for killing a guy? I sure hope the civil case is a bit stronger!
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UTC quote
kshansen,

Unless the at fault driver was charged with manslaughter, the court just fines them for the cost of the ticket. The judge was very instructive because the civil suit is wide open for big bucks on wrongful death. Also, the judge cast the future case against the at fault party by ruling they were negligent.

Bob Copeland
Insurance Agent
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kshansen wrote:
$50.00 fine for killing a guy? I sure hope the civil case is a bit stronger!
Well, the legal case was about failure to yield right-of-way. The civil case will be a somewhat different discussion. There are mitigating circumstances all the way around - failure to yield right-of-way on the part of the driver of the SUV, and doing 70+ mph in a 45 mph zone on the part of the sport bike rider.
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Dooglas wrote:
Well, the legal case was about failure to yield right-of-way. The civil case will be a somewhat different discussion. There are mitigating circumstances all the way around - failure to yield right-of-way on the part of the driver of the SUV, and doing 70+ mph in a 45 mph zone on the part of the sport bike rider.
I guess I missed the post that said the sport bike was doing 70mph in a 45mph zone.
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UTC quote
Something to note. It is difficult to prove speed. Also, States differ on how they assess liability. Example, in some States, if it can be proven that you contributed in any small way to the accident your rights of recovery are lost. In most States, they will assign a percentage of negligence. If you are less than 50% negligent, you have a right to recover from the accident.

Example, if the sport bike speeding is determined to be 40% at fault, the bike still gets to recover 60% of their loss. Also, a smart plaintiff attorney will just double up the demand in the suit to recover all they want even at 60%.

In the case of a fatality, most insurance companies just offer the max in their coverage. I have also been in court as a Casualty Insurance Claim Adjuster to back up our legal counsel. When the other side, plaintiff's attorney wheeled their client in to court in a wheel chair. I knew we were dead - offer all our coverage.

Bob Copeland
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
I'll update this thread again if it goes to a civil case. But Bob Copeland makes very valid points. I'm not sure how my states laws are if both parties are found at fault, but if I was the deceased family you better know I'd go after the lady in a civil case.

But when all is said and done the motorcycle rider died and the lady has to live with that. I just saw it happen and it haunts me sometimes, I don't know how I'd handle something like what she did.

Oh, before I forget. The crash team cop said they can get a pretty good estimate of the bikes speed. The fact that my car was stationary the whole time the motorcycle comes into view and that it (dash cam) time stamps the footage with a "sub?" second counter makes it easier. I don't do math well so it was all alien talk to me.
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In the case I was involved in, it went very bad for the crazy driver because she harassed the hell out of the first officer on scene, attempted to drive off again, would not sign the citation on site, hit one of the officers with her handbag, refused a breathalyzer test and knocked another officer's hat off. In the first court case, her lawyer said she did all these things as she was traumatized. When the judge charged her with a few of the lamer offenses, she told the judge she was going to have him fired. Put in handcuffs, charged with contempt and this was in the first 10 minutes. In the civil case it went even worse - convicted of vehicular manslaughter, among other things by a jury because of all the things she said after she was told of her rights and in the court room. The third session was about a settlement and that's when I heard she called my friend scooter trash on the day of the accident. Yet another entitled non-thinking person with no love in her soul.
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Well my accident about 24 years back was probably an easy one to decide.

Like when there are skid marks for at least 50 feet across my front yard and the left front wheel was broken off by the culvert under my driveway. When the car tee-boned me in my own driveway.

Then the idiot guy from this guys insurance refused to accept my estimate for 6 months lost wages and he contacted the head office for the company I worked for and they upped the estimate a few thousand!
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UTC quote
That's crazy sh!t there, kshansen. I hope you did not come out of it with any lasting injuries. I worked with a guy years ago that purposely hit a guy with his car that was making the moves on his girlfriend. Of course he did jail time. After I got to know him better, he confessed when he hit the guy, he was sitting on his front porch at the time having a smoke. Wha? emoticon
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UTC quote
kshansen,

That has got to be one of the most outrageous accidents. You are not even safe in your own driveway. Hope you are fine.

Bob Copeland
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UTC quote
Feels late to jump in but I had this type of experience a while back. Saw an SUV drift onto the left shoulder distracted on the freeway, panic, whip hard to the right and roll it. Driver (19) and her father (50s) were thrown from the vehicle, not having been buckled up. Her sister (18) was still in the rig. Miraculously the driver was up and walking around right after, and the girl in the back was mostly okay. The father wasn't so lucky. I think he was gone before the rig even stopped, if I'm honest. I was first there since I was right behind so I still did what I could with CPR. Even when you know there's no chance you still go through the motions - still try. The cops took my number but never contacted me and made up a story about them speeding (they weren't). Seat belts, people.
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Bob Copeland wrote:
kshansen,

That has got to be one of the most outrageous accidents. You are not even safe in your own driveway. Hope you are fine.

Bob Copeland
Bob here's a picture showing the marks in yard, must have been worried about the post office as he missed my mailbox! Oh! and one more thing this guy was not the car directly behind me, guy behind me knew me as he worked with my ex-wife about three miles up the road.

And NO! it was not a hit ex and I are on very good terms and she even helped me a few time after the accident.
Skid marks
Skid marks
@cdwise avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
GTS 300, Buddy 125
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8871
Location: Knoxville, TN
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@cdwise avatar
GTS 300, Buddy 125
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8871
Location: Knoxville, TN
UTC quote
kshansen, my brother's Chevy Tahoe was parked in his father in law's driveway in front of their breakfast table. Alex (father in law) got up to refill his coffee and heard a loud crash behind him. He turned and saw the Tahoe 4' past the chair he had been sitting in. Some woman ran the stop sign she was making a left turn at inside a residential 25mph neighborhood, lost control and broadsided the Tahoe so hard it was pushed 40 feet and through the front of his house. O skidmarks even in that case.

You have to wonder about some people.
UTC

Hooked
BV250, BV500
Joined: UTC
Posts: 253
Location: SFBay
 
Hooked
BV250, BV500
Joined: UTC
Posts: 253
Location: SFBay
UTC quote
cdwise wrote:

Some woman ran the stop sign she was making a left turn at inside a residential 25mph neighborhood, lost control and broadsided the Tahoe so hard it was pushed 40 feet and through the front of his house. O skidmarks even in that case.

You have to wonder about some people.



There's no reason to wonder here. At best that was an incompetent, negligent driver who failed to control her vehicle. At best. For all we know she was loaded on drugs and completely intoxicated.

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