Modern Vespa

I think that you're missing my point.

When the alternative has so many deficiencies when compared to the original why would you buy it now when all the development is yet to come ?

On the forecourt I'm paying more but I'm actually getting less if I make the switch now and ultimately I'm left with a prototype.

Wouldn't you just wait it out until EV's are on par or even better than an ICE vehicle, like , you know, in the future.

I think we'll see scooters as we know them, including the lovely Vespa shape, mostly disappear. They'll be replaced by electric stand-up (kick) scooters and electric bicycles.

I live in a country where traditional electrical power supply is failing rapidly due to mismanagement. Virtually every home is installing some level of on-site solar generation for domestic use.
Businesses have done the same as 'load-shedding' power cuts seriously interrupt business.
For this reason, e-vehicles are attractive options for fuel-free short distance travel between solar-powered home and solar-powered work.

Fuel supply chains are both by pipeline and by 18-wheelers - neither of which can be readily replaced by ICE vehicles.

I would suggest that hybrids are more likely to predominate.
Small economical ICE's that constantly charge batteries and powerful motors that provide the variable needs of traffic and geography.

Neither of which are much use at carrying shopping. At least you can easily carry seven 12-packs of beer (in cans) on a Vespa with a topbox. A week's worth for two.

edit - that's not using the pet carrier, so an electric version which fills that volume with batteries is fine.

👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇

There are a vocal minority of people on the internet who are unable to distinguish between the present and the future, or imagine a better world. They want nothing to do with electric vehicles, based solely on (checks notes) something they read somewhere on the internet. It's a vicious cycle.

I choose to step out of that cycle and imagine a better world. Yes, lots of problems to solve along the way. But if the alternative is carbon emissions forever, then our collective "forever" is probably somewhat temporally limited.

So rather than shake your fist in the air, maybe consider alternatives that don't involve being stuck in the past, or only using technology and infrastructure as it exists today?

Because y'all sound like buggy whip salesmen, denying the inevitability of the coming motor car.

Wow, this thread has created a lively exchange. (Something I Like)

I agree with Bill Dog and Outsider.

I just hope we allow a free market place to make the changes
and not start slamming everyone with government over reach.
There is a good measure of pseudo-science and pseudo-economics
floating around with proponents of everything electric thinking it
is the only answer.

Jess is right about battery technology eventually improving and
it may well supplant ECVs. Again, I would like the market to do
this and not government.

Bob Copeland

I do decent miles a year on a ebike. I just got a new one so I'm starting from zero on the ODO. I love my ebike. Now, if regulations come along and make me go thru all the trouble of a motorcycle (plate, insurance, inspection) then I'll just go back to whatever. I also love my electric kick scooter, but it's strictly a toy as carrying anything over a gallon of milk is a pain.

Now, if we get a decent electric motor scooter I might consider it. NIU is coming close for my needs but I can get a Rough House for cheaper and faster. And Ziggy is making a noble effort for their electric motor scooters.

I care about our environment and try to do my part but investment vs. return is still a factor as I'm not independently wealthy. Gasoline is still the best for my needs.

I have been driving Nissan Leafs since 2013. I have upgraded to my present 2020 model mainly due to range anxiety. I now have range of over 200 miles.

This last Sept I considered an electric scooter (made in China). Limited speed/range and quality. Went to the Vespa dealer to consider an Electtrica. Also limited in speed and range, but good quality.

Settled for a 2022 GTS 300. Already have over 2,000 miles on it. My trips are all local. Like up to 9,000 ft on the way to Estes Park. Distance usually 75 to 85 miles. Could do that on a Zero. I had a 2012 Zero but it was too heavy for me so sold it. That is my point. Only a heavy E-Bike could do the trips I like.

I guess my point was I really liked the Zero, but it is dealer dependent, which bothers me some. I suppose this is going to way of things in the future. But the way I see it now - when you buy an electric vehicle, you are financing or paying upfront for that company to keep going. Not such a bad thing if it means a cleaner future.

electric vehicle at present have their niche where they are and will be the best vehicles for some, not most or all. Future technologies such as hydrogen or nuclear or perhaps a power source that the future will come up with. Until infrastructure that is reliable is available to refuel, recharge or repower what ever type of vehicle the majority would decide to purchase. I can not believe all and not even most would be willing to switch from petrol fueled vehicles as long as oil can be removed from the ground to supply mankind needs. May the future see a propulsion source appear that does not pollute. I doubt one will appear while I still walk this life giving planet we call EARTH.

In TX. the license requirement depends on top speed. Although, an E-bike with peddles has a higher top speed requirement than one without peddles that requires a license.
Check your state.

We hammer miles on our 6 year old Prius (80,000 miles) and let our 7 year old V6 Accord sedan sit, (30,000 miles) leather and exterior are like new, it is a win $ win 🌎 situation,
same with our often cycling and walking to stores, it's also a win$ win also ❤️ 🫁 .
I will hop on board the EV train with no reservations when they cost the same or less than ICE, fuel up as fast and go as far on a fuel up.

This part of it is very important. To imagine a better world. If we want one, we need to imagine that first.

ICE powered motorcycles and scooters are awesome indeed. That's why most of us are here. But personal transportation has undergone major changes, because some people out there pushed the envelope and tried to imagine what the future will look like. We now have cleaner fuel, emissions control, more durable engines and better fuel mileage, that's all part of positive change, isn't it? That change is simply going to continue. In which direction in the end, we will see. It might be neither electric nor hydrogen. Though I am convinced, that even those of us who are older will witness major changes in the very near future.

Apologies if I missed anyone else addressing this issue while skimming through the thread.

I understand it takes a while for the infrastructure to grow up around something like EVs becoming popular. But I'm kind of surprised it hasn't gotten further along, at least from what I've personally noticed.

Would I consider an EV? Right now, probably not, even if I had the extra $$$. I live in an apartment. It's not actually a very old building, but it certainly doesn't have any way to properly charge most EVs. The parking garage is across the street, in an entirely different building. There aren't any hookups available to residents at all. I'm sure there are apartments that can accommodate, but I haven't come across any that advertise it. I know some smaller EVs and bikes have removable batteries that you can bring inside to charge, but it doesn't seem like that's the norm (at least not yet). Not to mention any batteries of decent size weigh a lot and probably suck to have to cart around without being under their own power. I can easily see building managers tacking on extra fees for people charging an EV, too.

Sure, there are multiple rows of EV chargers available at my college, and a few scattered around town, but not nearly enough to compensate for the lack of the ability to actually charge it at home.

^^^^
The lack of charging facilities, especially in older developments (think back centuries in some places) is a problem, for sure.

Some London (UK) boroughs are examining putting charging outlets on every urban lamppost where residents don't have off-street parking. It'd be a huge undertaking uprating the cabling, but a lot of it is due for renewal soon anyway.

I give it 15 to 20 years before EVs are the norm - and I bet most won't be privately owned, but available for self-drive hire and almost universally available, so there's bound to be one a few yards from your front door.

Deleted

One shortcut on uprating the cabling is to replace the street lights with LEDs. The cabling was likely originally specced for high-wattage incandescent or mercury-vapor bulbs, and the low draw of the LEDs would free up capacity for at least slow charging.

Probably not enough for a charger at each lamppost, but could be enough for one every few of them.

Trailers and other accessories will take care of that (re stand-up scooters and e-bikes).

If there was a true free market regarding oil, few people would be able to afford gasoline or ice vehicles.

A key factor hasn't come up in this discussion: the rapidly rising cost of getting oil. Because that isn't accurately reflected in the pump price, it's easy to overlook.

With this rising cost over the last 20 yrs, combined w the lack of discoveries, how long before much higher oil/petrol prices become a fact of life?

Another factor in the transition to EVs: if we are going to address emissions, won't we have to travel less and at lower speeds?

Add to all this insurance cost. My new payment is 25% more than the last one. Soon, only the wealthy will drive cars. The remaining people will only be able to afford Ebikes and scooters.

The US is sitting on billions of gallons of crude oil and yet it buys it from the Middle East.

There's a cost saving right there.

Why not just buy a smaller car and save money that way ?

This is Merica. Where everyone can buy massive HP but no one can buy common sense.

In my neighborhood of 30 homes (semi-rural) there is no way to support more than 3 or 4 high-output chargers for cars on our existing electrical service. And the chance of this grid being upgraded is very low.

For example, we are still on bonded copper pair internet in the age of optical. Why? Because the $250-300k cost of a hub to support 30 homes can't be justified by our service provider. Grid upgrade for power is the same issue.

When I was younger I expected flying cars by the turn of the century. EV adoption of more than 10%? I think it is decades away.

If using less resources overall is really the goal, yes. Mass transit is another option.

With uncanny timing this came out today. It's 15 minutes but it's more than I can say.

absolutely wonderful that you found that video and put it where I and others that care are better informed. The lady put some facts about propulsion systems out to counters those that try to blow smoke up the butts of we the people for who knows what nefarious purposes. synthetic fuel FOR 4$ a gallon or less, sounds like there is or can be another alternative for ice vehicles even if and when fossil fuels can no longer be supplied in quantity. I have paid 4$ and more off an on to baby some important to me engines I own.

Absolutely wonderful that you found that video and put it where I and others that care are better informed. The lady put some facts about propulsion systems out that counters those that try to blow smoke up the butts of we the people for who knows what nefarious purposes. Synthetic fuel FOR 4$ a gallon or less, sounds like there is or can be another alternative for ice vehicles even if and when fossil fuels can no longer be supplied in quantity. I have paid 4$ and more off an on to baby some important to me engines I own.

Bill Dog,

There is something comedic about having an abundance of a
resource and actually going elsewhere to buy it.

Well hopefully things will sort themselves out. Regrettable, the
flavor of the day is jumping off the cliff for the environment because
the world is coming to an end. Something that has been historically
popular.

I am with most on this forum - EV still to costly with limited distance
utility with a faith that advances in technology will bring it all together.
If the limited distance is solved, the charging stations will pop up
over night everywhere.

And Bill, hopefully, the thought police of the super state Oceania
will allow me to keep my Old Dragon Red Vespa.

Happy New Year to all.

Bob Copeland
Frostbite Falls Minnesota

Happy New Year to you Bob.

Bless you and your Burgman.

US Oil Production by Year. (source)

Somewhere along this post were comments about sound.
Or lack of it.

I've said myself that watching e-formulas could be fun, if their whining electric noise did not grate my ears.

Now, I may have to take my words back a bit.

An electric Porche passed me while I was walking our dog just a minute ago. To be more precise, it stopped politely to give us room to go over the street.

E-formulas say something like 'iiiiiiiiiiiIIIIIIIIiiiiiii'.

Most of the electric cars here (Polestars, VWs, Mercs, Skodas, Audis, Renaults and Teslas) say something like 'hummmmmmmm'.

This Porche said 'HUMMMMMMM' , in a quiet, civilized, yet powerful way.

I don't know what acoustic tricks the Bavarian folks do, but they do it well.

Could one point towards any scientific studies proving the assertions in that video?

Here is an alternate take:

Electric Vehicle Myths

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths

This comes via the EPA (US Environmental Protection Agency), so if you don't like them just look at the countless studies this is based on.

I'm 5 minutes in and literally everything she's said so far has been either grossly overstated or patently false. She's clearly not an expert in this field, she's just someone with opinions about EVs. "Do your homework" is the rallying cry of anti-vax karens. I guess they've set their sights on EVs now too.

Likely the only reason anyone actually believes the tripe in this video is due to confirmation bias: you believe what reinforces your pre-existing beliefs.

Why anyone would believe this person's ranting is beyond me... She's full of shit and disinformation. The reason rare earth metal mining isn't more widespread in the U.S. is because of economics, NOT because of some U.S. government deep-state EPA/OSHA conspiracy (or whatever stupid shit she said). It's generally cheaper to import those resources from other parts of the world versus producing them domestically. But just for the record, lithium IS mined in Nevada and a new cobalt mine just opened this year in Idaho, despite what some random person says on a Youtube video.

I'm surprised that you wasted those 5mins 🤣

your opinion has been noted . my opinion is vastly different, I choose to not try to educate you on why I feel about any subject as it would require speaking about subjects that are verboten on MV site.

"do your homework", there are many many studies on all sorts of subjects. google can be your friend to guide you to the subjects that you wish to become knowledgeable about.

And by that, you mean you would have to rant hysterically about government conspiracies?

I don't think this word "educate" means what you think it does.