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frank thomas wrote:
"do your homework", there are many many studies on all sorts of subjects. google can be your friend to guide you to the subjects that you wish to become knowledgeable about.
"Do your homework" (and the related "do your own research") is a notoriously popular copout among the conspiracy-minded. It basically says "I'm too lazy or clumsy to articulate this point, but you should believe it just as strongly as I do".

I challenge you to articulate your point in a coherent manner that doesn't involve conspiracies or government lies. If you can't do that, then kindly back away from this topic.
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CaliforniaCruising wrote:
We hammer miles on our 6 year old Prius (80,000 miles) and let our 7 year old V6 Accord sedan sit, (30,000 miles) leather and exterior are like new, it is a win $ win 🌎 situation,
same with our often cycling and walking to stores, it's also a win$ win also ❤️ 🫁 .
I will hop on board the EV train with no reservations when they cost the same or less than ICE, fuel up as fast and go as far on a fuel up.
I have driven Prius vehicles in my work and found them to be quite nice. and would not hesitate to use them again. I doubt I will ever choose to purchase though.
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jess wrote:
"Do your homework" (and the related "do your own research") is a notoriously popular copout among the conspiracy-minded. It basically says "I'm too lazy or clumsy to articulate this point, but you should believe it just as strongly as I do".

I challenge you to articulate your point in a coherent manner that doesn't involve conspiracies or government lies. If you can't do that, then kindly back away from this topic.
I do not believe "do your own homework" is a cop out . One learns much better learning on their own and not having others do it for them. Why should anyone be forced to explain how they arrived at their own opinions. I have noted your opinions, I disagree with what you Think of my opinions but that's ok by me. I feel my opinions being incoherent to you are not my problem. Could my thinking what I feel are your continuing denigration of what or how I comment on subjects in Discussion be allow the barring of a person who's opinions you disagree on sound reasonable to others? there is no need for discussion if all agree.
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breaknwind wrote:
This is Merica. Where everyone can buy massive HP but no one can buy common sense.
Exactly aspiring for an ICE supercar to aspiring for an EV supercar is what makes a lot Americans feel green.
Heck some Americans are even crazy enough to think, those pushing green energy want to continue to control the world's currency AKA the dollar
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frank thomas wrote:
I do not believe "do your own homework" is a cop out.
You've apparently never listened to a Karen screaming in public (with apologies to people I know that are actually named Karen).

If you can't articulate a coherent point, then expecting someone else to try to figure out exactly what point you were trying to make is like saying "I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 4 million. Guess what it is?". It's neither useful nor instructive nor educational.

On the other hand, saying "do your own homework" does let everyone around you know that you've got nothing meaningful to say, and any further statements can be duly disregarded.

Which is exactly how I am going to proceed.
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I read an interesting article on EVs and winter driving recently. I don't own one, but have some interest in how they will do in Canada since our government is….(info is in the article). The really cold weather temps are below the chart, which deals with only autumn temps.
-
You can read it for yourselves, but will point out that the power demand in northern Alberta for the past week has been barely able to keep up. The government was asking people not to plug in the block heaters of their ICE until after 8pm. Now imagine if we all had EVs…obviously the infrastructure isn't there yet. I do agree, however, we will probably all be in EVs eventually.
clicky

Edit:link issue that I'm trying to fix….think I got it.
TL;DR- Tesla preformed poorest in this data set.
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spacedog wrote:
Now imagine if we all had EVs…obviously the infrastructure isn't there yet. I do agree, however, we will probably all be in EVs eventually.
I think that even without EVs in the mix, it is a given that the electrical grid needs upgrading. Modern energy demand isn't what it was 100 years ago, and yet our electrical grid is... well, it's about that old in many places.

I don't think this is a small thing, and I'm not dismissing it as a trivial detail. But it has got to happen, and it will happen.
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Regarding cold weather and EVs, the actual numbers are surprising. This chart is a little bit dated (it's from 2020) but, ummm... yeah.

(source)
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frank thomas wrote:
"do your homework", there are many many studies on all sorts of subjects. google can be your friend to guide you to the subjects that you wish to become knowledgeable about.
Indeed, there are many studies, for example this one:

A Comparative study on Electric Vehicle and Internal Combustion Engine Vehicles

K. Poornesh, K. P. Nivya and K. Sireesha, "A Comparative study on Electric Vehicle and Internal Combustion Engine Vehicles," 2020 International Conference on Smart Electronics and Communication (ICOSEC), 2020, pp. 1179-1183, doi: 10.1109/ICOSEC49089.2020.9215386.

Abstract:
Electrification of the vehicles gains a significant research importance due to the increasing amount of greenhouse gas (GHG) emission by using conventional internal combustion engine vehicles (ICEV). The major benefits of electric vehicles (EVs) are a reduced amount of carbon monoxide (CO) emissions, higher efficiency, performance, and lower maintenance costs. It also allows energy diversification by switching to renewable resources. This paper analyzes the efficiency of an EV with ICEV by considering various parameters like required torque, speed and distance traveled. The simulation is developed in MATLAB/Simulink and analysis is presented for various performance metrics as a measure.

Whatchu got to scientifically prove the opposite, meaning with rant-mode off and citing sources?
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That is interesting. I will point out that Norway is much, Much smaller than Canada. Ditto for the top seven on the list. Norway is roughly half the size of the province I live in. Not that EVs are all about the distance you drive, but range and charging time does factor in.
The fact that EVs can have only 45-65% of there range in winter because of wanting to heat the passenger compartment is a factor too.
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spacedog wrote:
I will point out that Norway is much, Much smaller than Canada. Ditto for the top seven on the list. Norway is roughly half the size of the province I live in.
Agreed. There are likely other factors at play, too -- it might be a combination of incentives, electricity costs, etc. I'd have to dig deeper to understand the why.
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jess wrote:
Regarding cold weather and EVs, the actual numbers are surprising. This chart is a little bit dated (it's from 2020) but, ummm... yeah.
Interesting / nice chart.

One thing to ponder when looking at these charts is how many of those EVs are in two car homes where the other car is ICE. (Not a dismissal just a ponderance)
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SteelBytes wrote:
One thing to ponder when looking at these charts is how many of those EVs are in two car homes where the other car is ICE. (Not a dismissal just a ponderance)
Yes, absolutely. My electric car is fairly short range, and was ideal for my commute to work (before I retired). But for longer trips, we generally take Mrs Jess's ICE car. For short trips (groceries, etc) we try to take my electric whenever possible.
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Spyvito wrote:
In my neighborhood of 30 homes (semi-rural) there is no way to support more than 3 or 4 high-output chargers for cars on our existing electrical service. And the chance of this grid being upgraded is very low.

For example, we are still on bonded copper pair internet in the age of optical. Why? Because the $250-300k cost of a hub to support 30 homes can't be justified by our service provider. Grid upgrade for power is the same issue.
Not a personal criticism at all...

This is a common situation in South Africa's rural and even peri-urban communities. Government has other priorities and big business finds 99 reasons not to do something. So we go privately owned.
Domestic single phase solar power generation costs around US$15k per home. Then we establish a community-owned digital station and link to available suppliers.

A friend lives on a 1Ha smallholding with 12 other neighbors. They have their own high-speed internet hub that provides them with all the connectivity they require. Since Covid, working from home has rocketed and four of his neighbors have successful on-line businesses. They form the backbone for the service and the balance are normal domestic users.

Necessity is the mother of invention. If you need it, just do it.
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spacedog wrote:
That is interesting. I will point out that Norway is much, Much smaller than Canada. Ditto for the top seven on the list. Norway is roughly half the size of the province I live in. Not that EVs are all about the distance you drive, but range and charging time does factor in.
The fact that EVs can have only 45-65% of there range in winter because of wanting to heat the passenger compartment is a factor too.
We have a proper, long winter here too, colder than 14F frequently, colder than -4F occasionally.

I have only a plug-in hybrid myself, but I know quite many who have full EVs. Empirically, in these conditions, it seems that the winter range is somewhere between 30-50% down from summer.

I, as many with full EVs, pre-heat the car with the build-in heat pump using electricity from the grid. This is done via the charging cable. This is also pretty fast, 10-20min depending on the weather for my car that is always in outside temperature.

My colleague has a Skoda Enyaq. He normally charges up only to the recommended 80%, but uses 100% for longer trips. Done OK winter trips driving from Southern Finland to our Nordic ski resorts, ~ 950 miles one way.

Our charging infra is also far from perfect yet, although developing fast. Still, his car has a fast charge, so the charging during these longer trips mostly takes place at places where you can eat/have a snack while the car is being charged.
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jess wrote:
Agreed. There are likely other factors at play, too -- it might be a combination of incentives, electricity costs, etc. I'd have to dig deeper to understand the why.
The Norwegion Government certainly incentivise EV's, as well as being exempt from the country's 25 per cent VAT rate, electric cars in Norway aren't subject to road tax, while drivers also benefit from reduced road and ferry tolls, as well as discounted parking. EV owners can even use bus lanes without fear of retribution.

I believe in Norway due to the 25% tax exemption it is now cheaper to buy an EV than a ICE equivalent and clearly a lot cheaper to run and maintain.

If only every Government was as forward thinking as our Scandanavian friends.
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frank thomas wrote:
I do not believe "do your own homework" is a cop out . One learns much better learning on their own and not having others do it for them. Why should anyone be forced to explain how they arrived at their own opinions. I have noted your opinions, I disagree with what you Think of my opinions but that's ok by me. I feel my opinions being incoherent to you are not my problem. Could my thinking what I feel are your continuing denigration of what or how I comment on subjects in Discussion be allow the barring of a person who's opinions you disagree on sound reasonable to others? there is no need for discussion if all agree.
Is this poster for real or just here to stir things up? Yes, lets have "opinions" about facts. I'll start... My opinion is that 2 + 2 = 3. I learned that all on my own, and I won't be forced to explain how I arrived at my own opinion on 2 + 2.
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theschuman wrote:
Is this poster for real or just here to stir things up?
Based on my interactions so far, I believe the aforementioned poster is exactly the kind of person they represent themselves to be.
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Norway are removing the VAT exemption from premium EV's.

https://www.electrive.com/2022/05/13/norway-to-remove-vat-exemption-for-pricey-electric-cars/

They are also running out of cars to Tax to keep the roads in good condition.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/norway-electric-vehicle-tax

EV's are heavier and cause more damage to the road surface.
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Bill Dog wrote:
EV's are heavier and cause more damage to the road surface.
That's literally the worst argument against EVs (and presumably for ICE) that I've ever heard. You're scraping the bottom of the barrel, Bill.
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Can you loan me $1 so I can read this?
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I'm sorry but I just spent all my money on a tank of gas.
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Lol, Bill!

I read this:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/07/business/electric-vehicles-weight/index.html

It's old (June 2021), but it appears the heavier weight of EVs could impact infrastructure over time. EVs do appear to be safer in EV vs. ICE accidents, so safety is possibly another reason for early adoption of EVs. I do wonder if the batteries will get lighter over time or if physics somehow limits that from happening?
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Bill Dog wrote:
Jess, I'm really sorry but I didn't make it up.
I'm not disputing the facts, I'm disputing the importance of the facts.

If you believe that the added weight on the roads is sufficient reason for us to collectively give up on EVs, then I question your ability to think rationally about risk/reward.

I guess we better ban delivery trucks, too. Poor roads can't handle the weight.
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Giallo/Jess,

Thanks for the great documentation and research.

I am all in on electric as the desirable future.

My issue is the time table and resulting economic displacement
and inflation caused by too quickly killing a financial and
economy entirely based on fossil fuels. Doing something is
better than doing nothing - but simmer down now.

We can do this without making a can of beans costing $1.89 become
$5.00.

Hey, while hosting the Olympics in China (to clear up their horrible
air pollution) the Central Government shut down all manufacturing
in and around Bejing. This displaced thousands of employees.
I guess they are not living "The Peoples Dream" any more.

We can take a more measured approach.

Bob Copeland
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Bob Copeland wrote:
My issue is the time table and resulting economic displacement and inflation caused by too quickly killing a financial and economy entirely based on fossil fuels.
This is an oft-repeated concern. Not just with respect to EVs, but for every single disruptive technology in the history of the industrialized world (and probably even before that).

The introduction of the automobile caused much hand-wringing among the people who depended on horses and carriages for their livelihood. The owners of ice houses were rightly concerned that widespread availability of mechanical refrigeration would put them out of business.

Even the name luddite comes from a specific episode of economic disruption, when skilled craftsman were opposed to the use of mechanized looms.

This is how progress works. This is how progress has always worked. And among each generation, there is always a contingent that says "Nope. That's enough. Don't want to upset the egg cart".

To which I say poppycock.
⚠️ Last edited by jess on UTC; edited 2 times
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Yes but the trucks are at least paying taxes to cover the cost of the repairs which seems fair.

If you're using the roads I believe that you should pay for their upkeep, be it by toll or tax.

Zero Emission Vehicles will pay Road Tax in the UK from 2025.
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Bill Dog wrote:
Yes but the trucks are at least paying taxes to cover the cost of the repairs which seems fair.
Seems completely reasonable for EVs to pay road taxes. So you're okay with EVs then?
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Bill Dog wrote:
EV's are heavier and cause more damage to the road surface.
With an ever increasing amount of truck/lorry traffic on our roads including the exponentially growing volume of home deliveries, this may cause some re-evaluation on how we do road maintenance but it's hardly a significant shift. Last not least, it takes nothing away from the pressing need to de-carbonize or collective future.
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As far as EVs and roads go—Here in Washington our state has been trying to close the gap in road funding that has resulted as more EVs are sold. To that end, the state has been studying and moving toward a Road Usage Charge that based on miles driven, replacing the portion of road tax that is currently collected at the pump. I recently took part in a simulation of the project as details (reporting mileage, exemptions, etc.) are being ironed out. If it comes to fruition, I see it being a fair replacement to the tax at the pump.

On a side note, our state already collects an additional weight fee (via license tabs) on all automobiles.
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I've never been against EV's but I am reluctant to embrace a product that's being marketed as the one that's going to save the planet when it makes as much CO2 as the ICE alternative, but in reverse.

Buying an EV now is a bit like being sold a cake that's half baked while someone is still working on the recipe. Without question they are developing and improving all the time but only when they are as practical as a Petrol or Diesel would I consider owning one.

Even with the experience of the engineering geniuses at VW they still can't get the ID4 to work properly so is it unfair that these vehicles should be sold when they are still a work in progress ?

The dirty secret is that manufacturers will often keep making cars with known faults and send them to dealers rather than store them until they find a fix for the issue. They'd rather have that than let the loyal customers wait for the product and I'm seeing a lot of that now.

There will come a time ( in the UK 7 years away ) when I won't have a choice with what will power my car when buying new and that's a bit annoying. My ability to choose what car I have is being legislated out because of the greater good, even though that pathway may not be the right one.

Remember, I come from the cynical Car Industry where customers are regularly bullshitted by Advertising and Marketing Departments that tell you whatever you want to hear to ensure you go home with the product. For most customers that's all they want - to believe that they are making the right choice when quite often they have been played.

As a brief example the Emissions Free badge on a Nissan Leaf. Of course it's a total lie but no one will question it because it says something about you and the way you're being perceived by others. That level of affirmation makes you feel as if you are saving the planet even though it's total marketing bullshit.

Please forgive my cynicism but when you see the Automotive Industry from the inside you tend not to believe what you're being told or sold.

My own feeling is that pure EV's belong in town and cities or on short journeys such as school runs or shopping trips. Hybrids should bridge the gap between the town and the 150 mile drives and Petrol and Diesel vehicles should do everything over that but the latter two should all be allowed to exist together, not banned out right.

However, I'll leave you with this. A modern Diesel with a DPF filter and Ad Blu injection makes less emissions than a Hybrid and this is technology we have today so why aren't we using that ?

So no, I'm not against EV's, I just don't think that they are the solution that we've been promised.
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Bill Dog wrote:
I've never been against EV's
I could easily stop reading right there and disregard everything else you have to say, because that's just plainly and laughably false.
Bill Dog wrote:
when it makes as much CO2 as the ICE alternative, but in reverse.
It doesn't. That's been debunked over and over and over again. The only people saying that it produces the same (or more!) CO2 are being funded by the oil industry, or just unwitting stooges on the internet who believe the drivel being produced by the people being funded by the oil industry.
Bill Dog wrote:
Buying an EV now is a bit like being sold a cake that's half baked while someone is still working on the recipe.
So don't buy one. There, simple! But stop telling the rest of us that we're killing the planet, because you really, truly are spewing nonsense.
Bill Dog wrote:
The dirty secret is that manufacturers will often keep making cars with known faults and send them to dealers rather than keep them until they find a fix for the issue.
This is as true for ICE cars as it is for EVs, so I fail to see how it is relevant to the conversation.
Bill Dog wrote:
There will come a time ( in the UK 7 years away ) when I won't have a choice with what will power my car when buying new and that's a bit annoying. My ability to choose what car I have is being legislated out because of the greater good
I wouldn't put a lot of faith in legislative timetables for this kind of sea-change. Politicians of tomorrow rarely honor the wishes of the politicians of the past.
Bill Dog wrote:
even though that pathway may not be the right one.
As opposed to burning oil, which is clearly not a viable long-term solution.
Bill Dog wrote:
Remember, I come from the cynical Car Industry where customers are regularly bullshitted by Advertising and Marketing Departments that tell you whatever you want to hear to ensure you go home with the product. For most customers that's all they want - to believe that they are making the right choice when quite often they have been played.
What you're euphemistically referring to here is not the "Car Industry", but the sales channel. And what you're describing is true for the sales channel in almost every product category. So again, I don't see how this is relevant to the current topic.
Bill Dog wrote:
As a brief example the Emissions Free badge on a Nissan Leaf. Of course it's a total lie
This is called "pedantry", Bill. Seriously.
Bill Dog wrote:
That level of affirmation makes you feel as if you are saving the planet even though it's total marketing bullshit.
Here we get to what is probably driving all of this nonsense you are spewing. It irks you that people feel good about doing something positive, doesn't it?

To the point that you're willing to search high and low on the internet for confirmation of your pre-existing biases to prove that they are wrong and that they shouldn't feel good about anything.

Just like you.

Or, you could, you know, choose to be happy instead. It's your choice, really.
Bill Dog wrote:
Please forgive my cynicism
Why? It's a miserable condition that tends to rub off on everyone around you.
Bill Dog wrote:
but when you see the Automotive Industry* from the inside
*sales channel
Bill Dog wrote:
A modern Diesel with a DPF filter and Ad Blu injection makes less emissions than a Hybrid and this is technology we have today so why aren't we using that ?
Because diesel sucks for personal automobiles. Ask VW why.
Bill Dog wrote:
I hope that clears things up.
Immensely.
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eeeee bip
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So Volvo are being funded by the Oil Industry are they ?

Interesting.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-10161697/Volvo-says-electric-car-making-emissions-70-HIGHER-petrol.html

It's OK Jess. I get it.
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Bill Dog wrote:
Yes but the trucks are at least paying taxes to cover the cost of the repairs which seems fair.
Those trucks won't pay taxes if they are passing through Connecticut… Only if those trucks stop to buy diesel in the state will they pay taxes (on the fuel). We don't have toll roads here. Yes, I know it's crazy. Connecticut does, however, incentivize the purchase of EVs through additional tax rebates above the federal government's tax rebates. So, we apparently want more people to beat up our roads with heavier EVs, but we don't want them to have to pay for the road abuse through taxes or tolls. Of course, I support tolls (and other forms of "driving taxes"), but I'm in the vast minority.
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Bill Dog wrote:
So Volvo are being funded by the Oil Industry are they ?
Maybe go straight to the source?

https://group.volvocars.com/company/innovation/electrification
Bill Dog wrote:
It's OK Jess. I get it.
You don't, though. You don't get it at all.
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theschuman wrote:
Of course, I support tolls (and other forms of "driving taxes"), but I'm in the vast minority.
I'm in favor of taxation schemes that are evenly and fairly applied. The gasoline tax is obviously going to need to be re-thought.
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Here's the Volvo Press Release that the doomsaying stories about Volvo's so-called condemnation of EVs comes from. As you can read for yourself, it's actually a call for more renewable energy sources, all while affirming their goals toward complete electrification of their line.

https://www.media.volvocars.com/global/en-gb/media/pressreleases/289951/volvo-cars-calls-for-more-clean-energy-investment-to-realise-full-climate-potential-of-electric-cars

But of course the oil-industry lackeys seized on the tiniest minutiae in the press release and turned it into an anti-EV screed -- which it most definitely is not.

I'll be blunt, Bill: You seem to lack any kind of bullshit filter whatsoever. Because knocking down your bogus assertions is child's play.

Maybe you'd have a better time posting on the Confederate Diesel Truck forums? They'd probably really dig what you're laying down.
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UTC quote
Bill Dog wrote:
So Volvo are being funded by the Oil Industry are they ?

Interesting.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-10161697/Volvo-says-electric-car-making-emissions-70-HIGHER-petrol.html

It's OK Jess. I get it.
Did you read it Bill?
It says after 4-9 years(UK driving) there is a net carbon benefit.
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znomit wrote:
It says after 4-9 years(UK driving) there is a net carbon benefit.
Quote:
When charged with clean energy, such as wind power, the lifecycle CO2 footprint of the new electric SUV comes down to approximately 27 tonnes of CO2, compared with 59 tonnes for an XC40 compact SUV powered by a combustion engine.

However, when drivers charge their C40 Recharge using an average global energy mix (which is generated for around 60 per cent from fossil fuels), the car's lifecycle CO2 tonnage can increase to as much as 50 tonnes, significantly reducing the environmental gains versus a traditionally powered car.
Yes. If you drive an EV on dirty coal, you end up with more CO2.

Which is just one of many reasons why renewable energy is so @#$% important.

Duh.
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