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@hmc_mt avatar
UTC

Hooked
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
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@hmc_mt avatar
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UTC quote
Okay, after a long wait for my crank to be available, it's party time for my Stella 2T that came both cheap and with a disintegrated crank bearing cage. Thankfully it stuck the motor and I didn't find any damage. So here we are, empty cases & ready to go.

Basically what I'm trying to avoid is that old fashioned feeling of having it done & wishing I had known something earlier, or done something different. I've only done a P200 & VNB so I'm no pro.

I went with the Mazz long stroke crank as at this point I don't know if this will be a keeper scoot or not. I wanted the potential to be there if I wanted to build the top/pipe etc later. Something I wish I'd done on my P200.

Gonna start with the main bearing, seal and crank & wait for responses. Also have new cruciform, will be checking gears etc. Anything to be aware of or I may miss being new to LML? Recommendations for future buildability?
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⚠️ Last edited by HMC_MT on UTC; edited 1 time
@greasy125 avatar
UTC

Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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@greasy125 avatar
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UTC quote
Don't forget the kickstart gear.
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@hmc_mt avatar
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Hooked
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
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UTC quote
Love it. Even got a new return spring.
greasy125 wrote:
Don't forget the kickstart gear.
UTC

Molto Verboso
'07 GTS250, '07 LX150, '81 P200E, '78 P200E, '64 V90 and 3 Ciaos
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Remove all the factory installed bearings. Replace them with NTN or similar quality bearings.
UTC

parallelogramerist
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parallelogramerist
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UTC quote
Replace anything worn inside the cases with something other than LML.
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
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Jet Eye Master
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UTC quote
If this will ever be a performance motor, it will need a clutch side seal that will not fall out. BGM or Malossi seal only. And put in with suitable loctite.
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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UTC quote
Since you rebuilt the P200, I guess you have all the tools for assembly, especially the crank install tool. Other than that, FreakMoPed has a few good vids on Youtube dedicated just to prep for closing up the case halves.
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Hooked
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UTC quote
I pulled the P200 crank in with the clutch...didn't like it so after that one I treated myself to some tools. Bearing/Seal drivers, etc etc
Tierney wrote:
Since you rebuilt the P200, I guess you have all the tools for assembly, especially the crank install tool. Other than that, FreakMoPed has a few good vids on Youtube dedicated just to prep for closing up the case halves.
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Hooked
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UTC quote
This is news to me. Should I really hold the whole build up for a better seal? If anything, this will be a mild performance build.
Jack221 wrote:
If this will ever be a performance motor, it will need a clutch side seal that will not fall out. BGM or Malossi seal only. And put in with suitable loctite.
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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UTC quote
Looks like the one I took out of the Stella. But not what I put back in.
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
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Jet Eye Master
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UTC quote
HMC_MT wrote:
This is news to me. Should I really hold the whole build up for a better seal? If anything, this will be a mild performance build.
There are two issues with performance; more heat and more rpm. Too much of either make the seal spin loose. Once a seal has spun loose, if not noticed quickly, the casings may be damaged and never be able to hold a normal seal again.
If you build one or two mild engines, chances are you'll get away with it. But personally I wouldn't run that seal even in a stock build. Just my opinion.
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UTC quote
Much appreciated, exactly why the thread is here! Where are you getting your seals from? Using red or blue on the seal?
Jack221 wrote:
There are two issues with performance; more heat and more rpm. Too much of either make the seal spin loose. Once a seal has spun loose, if not noticed quickly, the casings may be damaged and never be able to hold a normal seal again.
If you build one or two mild engines, chances are you'll get away with it. But personally I wouldn't run that seal even in a stock build. Just my opinion.
@chandlerman avatar
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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UTC quote
HMC_MT wrote:
greasy125 wrote:
Don't forget the kickstart gear.
Love it. Even got a new return spring.
No he means...don't forget to install it before you close the cases...ask me how I know?

Also, be sure to check gear play. It probably doesn't make a difference, but I'd still flow the carb to airbox, because on both my LML's, the airbox opening was too narrow, even for a 20/20.

For the seals, I use
Loctite 680 retaining compound and avoid those stock LML metal seals for all the reasons stated above.

The other thing to be sure to check is that you get a good seal (use some sort of gasket compound) up where the case gasket meets with the reed block. After you join the cases, trim the excess with a hobby knife, then use something like Permatex on the reed block. That'll help you avoid air leaks at that joint.

Speaking of which, run a pressure test after the motor is together, so you *know* you don't have any air leaks.

Since you have the 60mm crank, you also now can control your port timings. What are you shooting for? Have you thought about it? What's your exhaust?
@greasy125 avatar
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Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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UTC quote
HMC_MT wrote:
Much appreciated, exactly why the thread is here! Where are you getting your seals from? Using red or blue on the seal?
loctite 660 or 638 are the most known retaining compound. if you go with something else, just be sure that it's high strength, high heat and anaerobic. you only need it on the clutch side one so get the smallest bottle you can.

Scooterpartsco is state side and lists the malossi seals at a reasonable price, if not scooter mercato #6617236
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Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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UTC quote
chandlerman wrote:
The other thing to be sure to check is that you get a good seal (use some sort of gasket compound) up where the case gasket meets with the reed block. After you join the cases, trim the excess with a hobby knife, then use something like Permatex on the reed block. That'll help you avoid air leaks at that joint.
^^ this

motoseal (from p-tex) or any of the honda/yama/three-bonds works great here. just don't go crazy, a little bit spread out with a throw away paint brush works perfect.
OP
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Hooked
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UTC quote
Now this is what I'm talking about. First of all, I'm ordering new bearings and seals. Thx on the reed block attention advice.

Second, this was gonna be a budget 'make it function' rebuild and I now have a bit more funds to do it better. Again this is a case of, I'm not gonna fully build it until I know I love it. But I want the bottom to be 100 percent ready to take whatever I throw at the top...which wouldn't be anything crazy. I have a P and VNB for all that fun.

Port timing! This is the next step in my progression, meaning I know nothing aside from the very general concept. Teach me the ways! (I did find a sip tutorial that's helping) Again, this will be my 3rd rebuild is all. Leak down/pressure test also on the list.

Waaay open to recommendations on what the top could be and pipe choice. My P has a Road 2, VNB has a BGM Big Box Touring. My mind is saying maybe BGM 177 & Polini box, maybe RD reeds eventually.
chandlerman wrote:
No he means...don't forget to install it before you close the cases...ask me how I know?

Also, be sure to check gear play. It probably doesn't make a difference, but I'd still flow the carb to airbox, because on both my LML's, the airbox opening was too narrow, even for a 20/20.

For the seals, I use
Loctite 680 retaining compound and avoid those stock LML metal seals for all the reasons stated above.

The other thing to be sure to check is that you get a good seal (use some sort of gasket compound) up where the case gasket meets with the reed block. After you join the cases, trim the excess with a hobby knife, then use something like Permatex on the reed block. That'll help you avoid air leaks at that joint.

Speaking of which, run a pressure test after the motor is together, so you *know* you don't have any air leaks.

Since you have the 60mm crank, you also now can control your port timings. What are you shooting for? Have you thought about it? What's your exhaust?
⚠️ Last edited by HMC_MT on UTC; edited 1 time
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
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Jet Eye Master
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UTC quote
HMC_MT wrote:
Much appreciated, exactly why the thread is here! Where are you getting your seals from? Using red or blue on the seal?
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/oil-seal-crankshaft-clutch-side-malossi-fkm-31x62x5-8-mm_M6616201
This seal fits well and lasts a good while. Loctite 603 or 638.
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Hooked
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UTC quote
Ordering these:
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Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
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Jet Eye Master
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@hmc_mt avatar
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Hooked
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UTC quote
Well...this is on the way. Got the last one. Funny how when this started I was "just gonna make it run". And that's the 3rd scoot I've done that with lol

Just waiting on the sick bearings/seals & the kit will follow.

I love the BGM BBT on my VNB 177 but after splurging on the bearings & kit I'm thinking maybe the Malossi box? Cuz price.
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Member
V50 P150 PX200
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Location: New Zealand
 
Member
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UTC quote
This is a Stella engine is it not??? If it is a Stella engine the oil seal seat will have a groove in it.

My understanding is if it has a groove you have to use a rubber edged seal and if it has no groove you use a metal edged seal.

More reading below.
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/oil-seal-crankshaft-clutch-side-corteco-31x62x4-3x5-8-mm_13110200?q=lml%20crank%20seal

Cheers

MattO
@jimvanmorrissey avatar
UTC

Addicted
Vespa PX200
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UTC quote
I've heard that the Malossi box is OK, but also a lot louder than the similarly-proportioned Polinibox.
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Hooked
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UTC quote
And so it begins...

I didn't forget the snap ring btw lol. Loctite on the seal. Game changer having some factory tools. Time to use that SIP crank installer.
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Hooked
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UTC quote
Crank is in. Clutch is on. Crank installation tool sure makes a difference once you figure out how to use it lol. Christmas tree is ready but I'm having a hard time finding a good output shaft bearing. Forgot that on the last order, along with the hub seal. Will check gear spacing & get all that on the way. Progress!!
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
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UTC quote
Looking good!

Throw some new motor/shock mount buffers in your order. The ones in that motor are dead!

Are you going to keep the stock reed block setup, or go carbon fiber and open up the block a little to go with the BGM177?[/quote]
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Hooked
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UTC quote
I'm gonna do whatever you tell me to! 😆

This is my first reed valve scoot, all new territory. I'm familiar with reeds from motorcycles but that's the extent of my Vespa reed knowledge.

My P has Clauss mounts, solid advice but I didn't even think I'd be able to afford the kit so maybe I can swing those here soon.

My big grey area of knowledge is the reed block and port timings. Been looking things up to research but still kinda over my head.

Still looking for a suitable bearing replacement for the output shaft.
chandlerman wrote:
Looking good!

Throw some new motor/shock mount buffers in your order. The ones in that motor are dead!

Are you going to keep the stock reed block setup, or go carbon fiber and open up the block a little to go with the BGM177?}
@chandlerman avatar
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
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UTC quote
My big grey area of knowledge is the reed block and port timings. Been looking things up to research but still kinda over my head.
[/quote]

To get started understanding the reed block and the modification options, have a look starting at this post from my Porting 101 thread. It gets into lots of thoughts on improving the reed block. You'll arguably still be limited by the 20/20, though, so probably not worth the effort if you're not upgrading the carb, but if you decide to go that route, this should be part of the project.

For port timings, that's been discussed numerous times on here. Give the search function a whirl and you'll find lots of discussion and how-to's on that. If you're still struggling after that, I'll run through and find the ones that I think will be helpful.

The BGM with a box will go like a beast with 124TD/170ED on the BGM. That's what I have in my VBB on a SprintV motor and it puts out 17HP. You should be able to get 15 pretty easy even keeping things mostly stock with the LML. That'll make for a fun little ride, and it'll cruise at 65 or so, albeit sounding like it's going to explode while you do it. Make sure the carb is tuned right before you do anything crazy like that, though.
@roland87 avatar
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Molto Verboso
'13 LML Star 200, '81 50 Special, '81 P 150 X, '87 PK 50 Nuova, '84 PK 50 S
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
HMC_MT wrote:
maybe the Malossi box?
IMHO - Stay with BBT or go to the Polini Box or Sip Road 2.0
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UTC quote
I appreciate the chime-in! Currently reading up. Need to understand how the timing affects performance etc. 3 rebuilds within my first year and a half of Vespa loving/ownership so I can't complain about the progress!!

I'll stick with the 20/20 for now and maybe mod the block/upgrade the reeds when we get to that part. What pipe do you like? ...budget friendly.

I got my 60/8 badge on a stock geared 3 speed All State 😆. Appx 1 million rpm. My head has already gone to an upgear on the Stella lol.

My main goal with this was to avoid having to case split again simply due to poor planning.
chandlerman wrote:
My big grey area of knowledge is the reed block and port timings. Been looking things up to research but still kinda over my head.
}

To get started understanding the reed block and the modification options, have a look starting at this post from my Porting 101 thread. It gets into lots of thoughts on improving the reed block. You'll arguably still be limited by the 20/20, though, so probably not worth the effort if you're not upgrading the carb, but if you decide to go that route, this should be part of the project.

For port timings, that's been discussed numerous times on here. Give the search function a whirl and you'll find lots of discussion and how-to's on that. If you're still struggling after that, I'll run through and find the ones that I think will be helpful.

The BGM with a box will go like a beast with 124TD/170ED on the BGM. That's what I have in my VBB on a SprintV motor and it puts out 17HP. You should be able to get 15 pretty easy even keeping things mostly stock with the LML. That'll make for a fun little ride, and it'll cruise at 65 or so, albeit sounding like it's going to explode while you do it. Make sure the carb is tuned right before you do anything crazy like that, though.
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UTC quote
Made some progress after a parts wait. Got the fly side bearing & seal in. People using loctite on all seals or just crank? Thank god for the hotplate, fly side crank bearing wouldn't play nice without it. Waiting on last bearing so I went to do the gear stack. I probably won't sleep at night unless I replace 3rd, maybe 4th. Lemme guess, Stella gears are inferior too. Recommendations needed on what (non LML) gear(s) to get, I need 3rd for sure...unless I'm told otherwise.

I wanted to try the Malossi box so i got a deal on one and it's on the way. BGM kit should show this week.
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UTC quote
That gear looks kinda rough. I'm not sure about the quality of Stella gears. I have pulled apart 2 Stella engine; one was original and another an eBay rebuild. Both gear stacks were decent. I would be more confident in a gear stack that came out of an original LML engine than random gears from eBay.

You could always replace with Piaggio gears for an EFL box.
OP
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UTC quote
It looks like the part where the cruciform engages is still nice and flat but there's that chip. Not sure if it'll even cause a problem but if I do swap it I wanted to get a good gears(s). For instance I wouldn't put lml seals & bearings in so I had the same mentality for gears.
orwell84 wrote:
That gear looks kinda rough. I'm not sure about the quality of Stella gears. I have pulled apart 2 Stella engine; one was original and another an eBay rebuild. Both gear stacks were decent. I would be more confident in a gear stack that came out of an original LML engine than random gears from eBay.

You could always replace with Piaggio gears for an EFL box.
@chandlerman avatar
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
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UTC quote
I still have the original gears from my Stella, which I've been abusing for 15+ years in one build after another, and the only one I've had to replace was 4th, but I also had to replace the Xmas tree and cases when I killed it, so I'm not sure that counts for "doesn't wear well."

People love to hate on the LML's/Stellas. Sure, a lot of the soft parts (rubber & wiring harness) are kind've garbage, but the frame is thicker steel and the engine is designed for a reed, and it's an EFL stack.

So if you're going to be doing any serious tuning, the motors are a great option. If you just want a bike that'll take a lickin' and keep on tickin', then once you sort out the electricals, they're good all around.
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UTC quote
chandlerman wrote:
I still have the original gears from my Stella, which I've been abusing for 15+ years in one build after another, and the only one I've had to replace was 4th, but I also had to replace the Xmas tree and cases when I killed it, so I'm not sure that counts for "doesn't wear well."

People love to hate on the LML's/Stellas. Sure, a lot of the soft parts (rubber & wiring harness) are kind've garbage, but the frame is thicker steel and the engine is designed for a reed, and it's an EFL stack.

So if you're going to be doing any serious tuning, the motors are a great option. If you just want a bike that'll take a lickin' and keep on tickin', then once you sort out the electricals, they're good all around.
Yup.

Rubber bits
Wiring
Sometimes crank
Bearings

They are great scooters to rebuild and you end up with something functionally better than a P series bike for the same or less money. An added bonus is that I don't feel bad if I load it up with chrome tat or rattle can some flames or racing stripes cuz it's just a Stella 😉
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UTC quote
Well we got a bitchin crank in there and the best bearings/seals I could get...all of em. So we're on the right track!

I guess along with port timing I also need to read up on transmission, gears/selector box lol. I didn't realize all the differences and what gears go with what. One thing I do know is my selector box is all set on the Stella and it's butter smooth, like I can't wait to shift it. My VNB is also butter smooth, almost too smooth but my P200 is clunky, crisp but not smooth. I'd like to know how to achieve that on my P eventually, but we'll get there when we do a crank and Malossi 210. : )
orwell84 wrote:
Yup.

Rubber bits
Wiring
Sometimes crank
Bearings

They are great scooters to rebuild and you end up with something functionally better than a P series bike for the same or less money. An added bonus is that I don't feel bad if I load it up with chrome tat or rattle can some flames or racing stripes cuz it's just a Stella 😉
@orwell84 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3142
Location: northern New York
 
Ossessionato
@orwell84 avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3142
Location: northern New York
UTC quote
From a beginner's perspective, raising the port timings shifts the power band to a higher rpm, so that the motor hits its peak power at a higher rpm than it would with a stock engine. From there it gets complicated.

When I rebuilt my Stella engine, I stayed fairly close to the stock timings even though I increased the displacement. I wanted to keep it simple for my first build and like forgiving power curve of the stock motor. I also pefer low down torque over top speed.
OP
@hmc_mt avatar
UTC

Hooked
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
Joined: UTC
Posts: 122
Location: Montana
 
Hooked
@hmc_mt avatar
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
Joined: UTC
Posts: 122
Location: Montana
UTC quote
That's about all the knowledge I have so far, goal is to just be able to measure the timings & know what that means...more reading to come.
orwell84 wrote:
From a beginner's perspective, raising the port timings shifts the power band to a higher rpm, so that the motor hits its peak power at a higher rpm than it would with a stock engine. From there it gets complicated.

When I rebuilt my Stella engine, I stayed fairly close to the stock timings even though I increased the displacement. I wanted to keep it simple for my first build and like forgiving power curve of the stock motor. I also pefer low down torque over top speed.
OP
@hmc_mt avatar
UTC

Hooked
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
Joined: UTC
Posts: 122
Location: Montana
 
Hooked
@hmc_mt avatar
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
Joined: UTC
Posts: 122
Location: Montana
UTC quote
Good lawd I'm supposed to put tools near this kit?! She's a beauty. Maybe too good for a Stella?? ROFL emoticon

Making progress, had to look at it while I wait for a couple things.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
@christopher_55934 avatar
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Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3547
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Ossessionato
@christopher_55934 avatar
2007 Stella 225
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3547
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
UTC quote
HMC_MT wrote:
Good lawd I'm supposed to put tools near this kit?! She's a beauty. Maybe too good for a Stella?? ROFL emoticon

Making progress, had to look at it while I wait for a couple things.
Needs a clear cylinder head cowl to admire it.
OP
@hmc_mt avatar
UTC

Hooked
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
Joined: UTC
Posts: 122
Location: Montana
 
Hooked
@hmc_mt avatar
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
Joined: UTC
Posts: 122
Location: Montana
UTC quote
One thing I wanted to note for anyone in the future that may be doing research, don't forget the sleeve that goes on the crankshaft. I may have...saw a post on Instagram about it...thought it's worth mentioning.

Heat it up, slide it on.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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