@qascooter avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62)
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Location: Florence, OR
 
Ossessionato
@qascooter avatar
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62)
Joined: UTC
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Location: Florence, OR
UTC quote
I'm following intently. Popcorn emoticon Popcorn emoticon Popcorn emoticon

I'll need to do the same soon and will be going in a similar direction.

I'm hoping to be able to just slap a 1.5mm base gasket in there and be good to rock, but it'll take some measuring beforehand.

What crank did you get?
OP
@hmc_mt avatar
UTC

Hooked
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
Joined: UTC
Posts: 122
Location: Montana
 
Hooked
@hmc_mt avatar
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
Joined: UTC
Posts: 122
Location: Montana
UTC quote
qascooter wrote:
I'm following intently. Popcorn emoticon Popcorn emoticon Popcorn emoticon

I'll need to do the same soon and will be going in a similar direction.

I'm hoping to be able to just slap a 1.5mm base gasket in there and be good to rock, but it'll take some measuring beforehand.

What crank did you get?
Long stroke Mazz. Best bearings/seals I could get. I like torquier timings but I'm also still learning. We'll see what kind of squish the provided gaskets yield.

I also went with a Malossi box over a Polini or BGM BBT which I have on my All State, basically because I wanted to try it and think it may be often overlooked. BGM all the way though if $ isn't tight. That BBT is incredible.

We'll see!
@hec_in_omaha avatar
UTC

Hooked
1980 P125X US Spec
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Posts: 394
Location: Beaver Lake, Nebraska USA
 
Hooked
@hec_in_omaha avatar
1980 P125X US Spec
Joined: UTC
Posts: 394
Location: Beaver Lake, Nebraska USA
UTC quote
HMC_MT wrote:
One thing I wanted to note for anyone in the future that may be doing research, don't forget the sleeve that goes on the crankshaft. I may have...saw a post on Instagram about it...thought it's worth mentioning.

Heat it up, slide it on.
FYI

You could have also used your SIP crankshaft installation tool to install the bearing race on the crankshaft. That's how I did mine! No heat or hammering needed. Worked great!

Hec
SIP tool for installing crankshaft bearing race And 1mm shim.
SIP tool for installing crankshaft bearing race And 1mm shim.
Done!
Done!
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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17 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
Hec In Omaha wrote:
FYI

You could have also used your SIP crankshaft installation tool to install the bearing race on the crankshaft. That's how I did mine! No heat or hammering needed. Worked great!

Hec
This is how I do it, too. Makes it super-easy to get it precisely 1mm off the cheek, too.
OP
@hmc_mt avatar
UTC

Hooked
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
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Location: Montana
 
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@hmc_mt avatar
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
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Location: Montana
UTC quote
chandlerman wrote:
This is how I do it, too. Makes it super-easy to get it precisely 1mm off the cheek, too.
Was unaware of the 1mm myself. Thx
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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17 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Posts: 9734
Location: Nashville

17 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
HMC_MT wrote:
Was unaware of the 1mm myself. Thx
It's so you can get a puller under it to remove it when you replace the bearings. Forgetting about that is a mistake you only make once.
OP
@hmc_mt avatar
UTC

Hooked
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
Joined: UTC
Posts: 122
Location: Montana
 
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@hmc_mt avatar
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
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Location: Montana
UTC quote
chandlerman wrote:
It's so you can get a puller under it to remove it when you replace the bearings. Forgetting about that is a mistake you only make once.
Well, I've chalked up my "once".
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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17 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
HMC_MT wrote:
Well, I've chalked up my "once".
ROFL emoticon

The easiest way to solve this problem is to make sure that you whatever you do to merit a rebuild, you kill the crank in the process.
@hec_in_omaha avatar
UTC

Hooked
1980 P125X US Spec
Joined: UTC
Posts: 394
Location: Beaver Lake, Nebraska USA
 
Hooked
@hec_in_omaha avatar
1980 P125X US Spec
Joined: UTC
Posts: 394
Location: Beaver Lake, Nebraska USA
UTC quote
HMC_MT wrote:
Well, I've chalked up my "once".
I was afraid of that. Facepalm emoticon Your picture looked like that bearing race was slid all the way on. Ouch..

Hec
OP
@hmc_mt avatar
UTC

Hooked
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
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@hmc_mt avatar
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
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Location: Montana
UTC quote
Hec In Omaha wrote:
I was afraid of that. Facepalm emoticon Your picture looked like that bearing race was slid all the way on. Ouch..

Hec
Worse things have happened. 🤷

There's this really cool picture earlier in the thread of a real nice crank with no bearing race on it. The title of the thread is "what to know before we close it".
OP
@hmc_mt avatar
UTC

Hooked
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
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@hmc_mt avatar
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Location: Montana
UTC quote
qascooter wrote:
I'm following intently. Popcorn emoticon Popcorn emoticon Popcorn emoticon

I'll need to do the same soon and will be going in a similar direction.

I'm hoping to be able to just slap a 1.5mm base gasket in there and be good to rock, but it'll take some measuring beforehand.

What crank did you get?
If you go with long stroke make sure you get the appropriate head spacer and/or play with the base gaskets. That's where I'm at now, with no clue how to measure port timings yet. Working on that.
@qascooter avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62)
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Location: Florence, OR
 
Ossessionato
@qascooter avatar
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62)
Joined: UTC
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UTC quote
Most definitely.

I went through this with a P200 about a year or so ago - a nice O-tune with a Gran Sport piston...

Getting Bianca, the P200 back on the road
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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17 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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UTC quote
Calculating port timings is not actually all that hard.

Measuring accurately is about diligence and averages.

Figuring out what the timings you're trying to achieve is the trickier part, but we can help with that based on performance goals and specific parts choices, e.g box vs pipe, which top end, cruising vs. stop light racing, etc.
OP
@hmc_mt avatar
UTC

Hooked
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
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Posts: 122
Location: Montana
 
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@hmc_mt avatar
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
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UTC quote
Performance goals: Feels like a P200 running lean haha.

Anyways, case is closed & cyl is on. I didn't realize I would need the long stroke appropriate head spacer until now but basically this seems like a perfect opportunity to learn how to measure and what those values mean.

I know how to set the kit up to function well but I learn nothing that way. I'll feel like I missed an opportunity to progress if I do that.

I need an idiots guide, like set your dial at TDC and then...

So maybe performance goals aren't even the point right now tbh. Overall, I like torquey around town bikes that can stretch their legs on the occasional back road, but I'm not a tourer that loves nothing more than cruising at 55-60 all day.
chandlerman wrote:
Calculating port timings is not actually all that hard.

Measuring accurately is about diligence and averages.

Figuring out what the timings you're trying to achieve is the trickier part, but we can help with that based on performance goals and specific parts choices, e.g box vs pipe, which top end, cruising vs. stop light racing, etc.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
⚠️ Last edited by HMC_MT on UTC; edited 1 time
OP
@hmc_mt avatar
UTC

Hooked
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
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Posts: 122
Location: Montana
 
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@hmc_mt avatar
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
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Posts: 122
Location: Montana
UTC quote
chandlerman wrote:
Looking good!

Throw some new motor/shock mount buffers in your order. The ones in that motor are dead!

Are you going to keep the stock reed block setup, or go carbon fiber and open up the block a little to go with the BGM177?}
I have BGM coming for the swingarm mount. Looks like a bitch to remove compared to other models.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
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Posts: 4531
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4531
Location: London UK
UTC quote
HMC_MT wrote:
Performance goals: Feels like a P200 running lean haha.

Anyways, case is closed & cyl is on. I didn't realize I would need the long stroke appropriate head spacer until now but basically this seems like a perfect opportunity to learn how to measure and what those values mean.

I know how to set the kit up to function well but I learn nothing that way. I'll feel like I missed an opportunity to progress if I do that.

I need an idiots guide, like set your dial at TDC and then...

So maybe performance goals aren't even the point right now tbh. Overall, I like torquey around town bikes that can stretch their legs on the occasional back road, but I'm not a tourer that loves nothing more than cruising at 55-60 all day.
Did you measure anything on your cylinder? It can be set up a few ways on a 60mm crank. The wide flat exhaust port is key to it's torquey reputation.

The timing of any port is quantified in degrees duration. This is the amount of time it is open. And is symmetrical about the stroke.

There are many online calculators. To start this is a simple one. https://lambretta-images.com/tuningh/port-timing-calculators/

Fundamental characteristics of a cylinder are represented in exhaust duration/primary transfer duration/blowdown. Like 185/125/30. If you need to fit a packer to set up a cylinder, then there are upper and lower limits of these numbers. Decisions (and alterations) can be made to suit the user's expectations. However having it all was never an option.
OP
@hmc_mt avatar
UTC

Hooked
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
Joined: UTC
Posts: 122
Location: Montana
 
Hooked
@hmc_mt avatar
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
Joined: UTC
Posts: 122
Location: Montana
UTC quote
I haven't measured anything yet, just set it up to take them. The kit came with a .2, .35, & .5 base gasket with a .5 head gasket. I should've ordered the 1.5 head spacer to run the .2 base and stroker crank but didn't.
Jack221 wrote:
Did you measure anything on your cylinder? It can be set up a few ways on a 60mm crank. The wide flat exhaust port is key to it's torquey reputation.

The timing of any port is quantified in degrees duration. This is the amount of time it is open. And is symmetrical about the stroke.

There are many online calculators. To start this is a simple one. https://lambretta-images.com/tuningh/port-timing-calculators/

Fundamental characteristics of a cylinder are represented in exhaust duration/primary transfer duration/blowdown. Like 185/125/30. If you need to fit a packer to set up a cylinder, then there are upper and lower limits of these numbers. Decisions (and alterations) can be made to suit the user's expectations. However having it all was never an option.
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
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Location: Nashville

17 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9734
Location: Nashville

17 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
I'll pay some thoughts in the morning when I'm at a real keyboard.

We got ya covered.
OP
@hmc_mt avatar
UTC

Hooked
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
Joined: UTC
Posts: 122
Location: Montana
 
Hooked
@hmc_mt avatar
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
Joined: UTC
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Location: Montana
UTC quote
Pretty solid forum here I see! No rush, a long with everything else I'm learning patience lol, and working on the swingarm mount. Also waiting for the new mounts & a couple odds n ends.

I'm in Montana so I haven't rode for way too long. Got my P out today and it was 22 degrees, felt fantastic to freeze my ass off lol.
chandlerman wrote:
I'll pay some thoughts in the morning when I'm at a real keyboard.

We got ya covered.
UTC

parallelogramerist
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parallelogramerist
Joined: UTC
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UTC quote
I've always found it very easy to both remove and install swingarm mounts. I use a propane torch to get the swingarm spacer tubes really hot. Then use a pair of channel locks to twist the spacer tubes out of the rubber mounts. Once that's done, i heat up the aluminum portion of the swingarm until it's hot. Then i use a large flat blade screwdriver and jam it between the aluminum swingarm and the rubber. Pry it apart a smidge and squirt some WD-40 between the two. I'll do that in all four corners, then i can fairly easily pry out the rubber. The whole job is less than 5 minutes...maybe closer to 3.
OP
@hmc_mt avatar
UTC

Hooked
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
Joined: UTC
Posts: 122
Location: Montana
 
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P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
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Location: Montana
UTC quote
The Stella has a straight through tube, no split in the middle, and the outside edges are peened.
whodatschrome wrote:
I've always found it very easy to both remove and install swingarm mounts. I use a propane torch to get the swingarm spacer tubes really hot. Then use a pair of channel locks to twist the spacer tubes out of the rubber mounts. Once that's done, i heat up the aluminum portion of the swingarm until it's hot. Then i use a large flat blade screwdriver and jam it between the aluminum swingarm and the rubber. Pry it apart a smidge and squirt some WD-40 between the two. I'll do that in all four corners, then i can fairly easily pry out the rubber. The whole job is less than 5 minutes...maybe closer to 3.
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4531
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4531
Location: London UK
UTC quote
HMC_MT wrote:
I haven't measured anything yet, just set it up to take them. The kit came with a .2, .35, & .5 base gasket with a .5 head gasket. I should've ordered the 1.5 head spacer to run the .2 base and stroker crank but didn't.
Putting 1.5mm spacer on the head is making a port timing decision. Could put 1.7mm on the base. Could do anything in between.
Identical cylinders are not identical port timing. The manufacturing tolerances are such that it matters. Casings and cranks differ too. This is why the supplied gasket choices.
Measure your cylinder. Check the science. It will go faster.
OP
@hmc_mt avatar
UTC

Hooked
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
Joined: UTC
Posts: 122
Location: Montana
 
Hooked
@hmc_mt avatar
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
Joined: UTC
Posts: 122
Location: Montana
UTC quote
Haha, well played Jack.
Jack221 wrote:
Putting 1.5mm spacer on the head is making a port timing decision. Could put 1.7mm on the base. Could do anything in between.
Identical cylinders are not identical port timing. The manufacturing tolerances are such that it matters. Casings and cranks differ too. This is why the supplied gasket choices.
Measure your cylinder. Check the science. It will go faster.
UTC

parallelogramerist
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5180
 
parallelogramerist
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5180
UTC quote
HMC_MT wrote:
The Stella has a straight through tube, no split in the middle, and the outside edges are peened.
For the Stella, grind the swedging down then stick the nozzle of a propane torch down the center of the tube. Do that through both ends until the rubber starts smoking then use some channel locks to twist tube out. If you can't get enough grip on the end of the tube, use a socket and extension as a drift. Once the tube comes out far enough, then try using channel locks again.


And yeah, the Stella mounts are more difficult to remove than on a Vespa, but lots of heat is your friend!
OP
@hmc_mt avatar
UTC

Hooked
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
Joined: UTC
Posts: 122
Location: Montana
 
Hooked
@hmc_mt avatar
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
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Posts: 122
Location: Montana
UTC quote
Pretty much exactly how I spent my night last night. Half way there!
whodatschrome wrote:
For the Stella, grind the swedging down then stick the nozzle of a propane torch down the center of the tube. Do that through both ends until the rubber starts smoking then use some channel locks to twist tube out. If you can't get enough grip on the end of the tube, use a socket and extension as a drift. Once the tube comes out far enough, then try using channel locks again.


And yeah, the Stella mounts are more difficult to remove than on a Vespa, but lots of heat is your friend!
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Location: Nashville

17 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9734
Location: Nashville

17 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
I have a BGM 177 with a Sip RoadXL and a 60mm crank. Port timings are 124/171/23 and it puts out 17 HP. That's on an extended intake rotary, but no reason you shouldn't see something in the neighborhood with your setup.

I have a pretty good gearing & port timing calculator spreadsheet (advanced features require OpenOffice for macro support. Basics stuff all works in Excel) I use which you can download here. PM me your email if you have any download issues and I can just send it to you.

That will give you a "what" to aim for. If you want to start getting into the "why" of it, you need to read "Two Stroke Performance Tuning" by A. Graham Bell and "Two Stroke Tuner's Handbook" by Gordon Jennings. While the start of the art has advanced since either of them were written, they will give you the fundamentals you need to get properly into the weeds.
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