Modern Vespa

A couple of questions and then my observations.
When you ride your modern Vespa(twistie) do you start the engine, get rolling and continue to raise the throttle to your cruising speed, or do you ride it like you were riding a manual older Vespa i.e. as you get to cruising speed you are twisting back(like using the clutch) as you are changing gears (hearing the engine) and then raising your throttle?
When you come to a complete stop and you are shutting off the engine, do you hold the brake before you turn the key off or do you use the kill switch?
I ride my modern Vespa like the way I rode a manual Vespa or how I rode my motorbikes, i.e. I ease off on the throttle as though I am shifting gears as I get to cruising speed. When slowing down that doesn't seem to apply for me.
As it pertains to shutting off, I hold the brake and then turn the key off, never use the kill switch. Also I have noticed that if I forget to hold the brake, when I shut off I hear click clang sound before the engine shuts off, so I tend to try and remember to hold the brake before I turn off.

In my Basic Rider Course, they stressed using the kill switch. That didn't stick for me on a scooter, so I use the key.

Because I ride both the Vespa and a motorcycle, I always use the kill switch.

I want it to be second nature to use, because in case of emergency a brain is not really capable of thinking logically.

I'm not sure I really understand the first question.

On the subject of the kill switch, I am firmly in the "always always always" use the kill switch camp. It should be something that you can do without thinking about it, and constant practice gives you that.

I am aware that this is a controversial opinion, especially among the Brits who are inexplicably taught never, ever to use the kill switch, because reasons. Something about forgetting your key and endemic theft in London. I will reiterate that I think those reasons are largely bullshit, and that turning off your scooter in an emergency trumps the risk of forgetting your keys. Obviously.

And I, of course, am firmly in the 'leave the damn thing alone unless it's an emergency - always use the key' camp.

It's also apparently kinder to the engine - I was told by a UK Piaggio technician that with key-off the ECU allows the engine to shut down in a certain sequence (whatever that is) rather than being abruptly killed. Does anyone else know about this?

Unsurprisingly, I call bullshit.

What I mean by riding the twistie like it is a shifty means, as you are twisting the throttle, you reverse it slightly as you would clutch and change a gear before throttling again. So on a twistie, as you get going the sound of the engine changes as it gets to cruising speed you are turning the throttle back as the sound changes like when you would if you were on a shifty.
I don't believe it hurts the engine in anyway or form and for me it is just a habit. If I were to find out that it is bad for the vehicle I would avoid it for sure.

Upon takeoffs WOT as much as possible for these reasons,
roads are fast and hilly where I live,
I like to split traffic and or filter between traffic packs
AND (I think?) taking off too slowly may be glazing over the driven pulley clutch and bell.

I've heard some Youtubers, (possible even Robot if my memory serves me right) say not to use the kill switch as they can go bad and leave you stranded
Always have been and will be a kill switch to turn it off rider though

Almost always the kill switch to turn the Vespa off, muscle memory, keeping the switch working and such.
As for easing off the throttle while accelerating, that's a definite no for me. I don't see any point in doing that.

No, not at all. The CVT transmission has no "detents", so it's just one continuous acceleration curve with no interruption. Getting to final cruising speed usually means tapering off (if I'm paying attention) or saying "Whoa, crap!" as I realize I am going too fast and then backing off until I am going a more reasonable speed.

And of course, if I'm on the freeway, it's likely I will just pin the throttle and keep it there the entire time.

that doesn't seem correct. are you really sure this is consistently happening? have you tried starting and stopping the bike while on the center stand?

I generally take the bike off the stand then I get on it and then start it and when I am shutting down, I am still on the bike, turn the key off, if I hold the brake and turn it off it will not make that sound invariably. But I haven't turned on and off the engine while on the center stand. Will check & report back tomorrow.

Probably! Searching memory pulls up something about fuel pump shutoff before the last few ignitions to release pressure in the fuel line. It was a long time ago, and would have been in discussion of the original Master engine.

If the idle is such that the back wheel turns (brake off), then engine shut-off will cause the tension in the belt to be very suddenly reversed. I can see this causing some noise as the clutch is suddenly jammed to a standstill.

Even without a turning back wheel, I can see the engine being turned off with no rear brake applied causing the suspension to lift a bit (I think that's the right way round) as the non-rotating bulk of the engine suddenly has a force (moment) released. With the brake applied, the suspension is held stiffly so won't budge - an effect that can be heard with the engine running as the resonant frequencies are altered. FAQ: Why does the engine sound different with the brakes on?

I grew up riding bikes that had to be kick started and shut off with a kill button. Very rarely I had to hit the button to shut off the engine after an accident. That was riding off road. In well over 40 years of street riding I've never had to use a kill switch in an emergency. I turn off the key.
I don't understand the first part of the question but I try to make sure the bike is warmed up before riding WFO.

Well, my Vespa was a 125cc Sprint, so it was mostly WOT until I reached the desired speed

I'm used to variators in cars too - contrary to more 'sporty' folks, I loved the smooth behaviour of Multitronic -generation Audis. They had a metallic variator system that behaved excatly like the ones in a scoot...they were expensive to manufacture and some versions had their glitches and were also expensive to repair, there's that too into their reputation

I never use the kill swith. I'm of the generation that had only the keys & kick start in the first bikes (Honda)...if I'm lying in a ditch and still with the bike, it's the keys my hands are autopiloted towards, not the kill switch.

I did use breakes in Vespa before shutting down. With a motorcycle only if there is a need to keep the bike in place.

I have. And I've shut off more than one engine from someone else's bike who had just gone down.

I can't remember intentionally using the kill switch. If I leave the keys in the bike, I could lose the bike and have to change the locks on my house.
Using the kill switch is a 2 step process, I like KISS.
Kinda like when Xfinity changed their remote. Use to be, I could push 1 button to switch between 2 channels. Now I have to push buttons 2-3 times each time I switch channels. Rant over.

Found this online with a quick search. Supposedly from the GTS HPE manual..

Stopping the engine

Close the throttle grip completely then turn the ignition switch A to OFF (key released and removable), or turn the engine stop switch B to 0.

I usually use the key switch as opposed to the kill switch. I always used the kill switch on my Harleys.

I always use the key to shut off my scooters.

But I do rock the kill switch occasionally just to keep it working.

Only when the engine is off.

As for using it after an accident, I had one incident that was memorable.

Riding with a friend in Carrabelle, FL, the other rider dropped the scooter doing an awkward turn around.

It was running while on it's side.

I kept saying "turn it off" from sitting on my scooter.

But that wasn't done and when picking up the scooter, the throttle was hit accidently and the scooter jumped forward and dropped on it's other side, doing much more damage than if turned off while down.

I should have jumped off of my scooter, but by the time I would have gotten it up on its center stand, all of this would probably have happened anyway.

Luckily the scooter got repaired and is good as new again.

Bill

I mainly ride manual shift scoot/motorcycles. It's easy enough to pull in the clutch (always covering it). So, my procedure during an emergency/problem is to pull the clutch and hit the kill switch. Riding an auto, pretty much the same procedure, except light touch with the left lever, then kill. If just stopping for the day, I just use the key.

Riding I only back the throttle off if I'm slowing down or at the rev limiter and want to eke out a tiny bit more speed.

As for shutting down the scoots I used the key 90% of the time. If I'm stopped and want to talk to someone for a couple minutes I will use the kill switch. When I went down I had no trouble remembering to hit the kill switch. The smell of gas would have been a reminder had I needed one.

Kill switches - I've had mostly manual gears in my bikes, hence the 'killing' part tend to happen by itself when a bike goes down.

Reading Bills text above, I realized that this indeed is quite different thing with an automatic transmission

My opinion is:
If I agree with the OM, then you are just being contrary by not following the instructions per the engineers who designed the bike and are more knowledgeable.
On the other hand, if I disagree with the OM, then they just inserted the instruction to CMA. And I've had no ill effects from my own procedure.

Fortunately in this case, the OM says the key OR the kill switch. How can this thread become an oil thread if the manual says both are acceptable? Dilemma!!!

It's not strictly about what's good or bad for the machine — the kill switch habit is taught by MSF's Beginner Rider Course as a safety procedure.

And anyway, if it were bad for the engine, why would it be there?

On most wiring diagrams that I have ever seen, the kill wire goes to the key switch and the kill switch and usually separate wires in case one fails. But they both end up at the same place, be it the coil, cdi, ecm, etc.. depending on the machine. So I can't see how using one or the other would mechanically hurt the engine.

I would leave the key in the ignition often if I used the kill switch to turn off my scooters.

That is reason enough for me to use the key.

On a similar note, I find that the keyless ignition on my Xmax often gets left at the position that allows opening the seat.

When I walk away while it is in this position, it starts beeping at me to remind me that I left it in an on position.

I was talking to Lostboater recently about his purchase of a new 2023 Vespa GTS 300.

When walking away from that one with the ignition in an on position, it doesn't beep, but instead flashes the lights.

In daylight I would never notice this.

And possibly return to a dead battery if left long enough.

I told him that I would have to carry a spare battery somewhere accessible if I owned one of those.

Bill

Yes I do this, although I had been riding manual scoots and motorbikes from 1986 up to I got my GTS in late 2021

I never use the kill switch on my Vespa but I increasingly use it on my Triumph purely so it reminds me to leave it in gear when I leave it on it's side stand.

I've heard this objection to the kill switch quite a few times, and I admit I'm fairly mystified by it. I am, in fact, quite absent minded sometimes — my brain wanders off without me on a fairly regular basis. Yet, leaving my keys in the ignition because I used the kill switch doesn't seem to be a problem that has plagued me personally. I doubt it's because I'm more alert than anyone else, honestly — I'm just not.

I'll go further: I think it's weird that so many people use this as a reason for not using the kill switch. I just don't think you or anyone else is really as forgetful as they make themselves out to be about the keys in the ignition. Rather, I think something else is lurking below this rationale. I just can't put my finger on what that is yet.

The only other reason I use the key when shutting down my scooters is that it is the only way I have done it since starting to ride many years ago.

Habits are hard to break.

Especially when the way I do it is perfectly normal.

I am a bit surprised that it is controversial at all.

Bill

Always kill switch in my case. Main reason is that, when parking my scoot in the dark garage, using the kill switch leaves the lights on and I can see what I'm doing until I flick the switch on the wall. Then, counter-clockwise with the ignition (it's a 2023 GTS 300 keyless). End of story.

Not sure, but I read somewhere that if, for some reason, you leave the ignition switch in the ON position - can't see this happening very often - the circuit is automatically broken after some time, not to discharge the battery of absent-minded folk. Have to try it sometime.

I think this is perhaps a more likely explanation — and to be clear, an understandable one. As you say, old habits are hard to break. I think that's what I'm getting at with the kill switch, though — by making it a habit, it becomes automatic and something you can use in an emergency.

Have you tried it? Has it ended up with keys left in the bike?

I sit in the use the key - most times - because I have fallen into the habit of always locking the steering, even in my own driveway when I am about. Strange I know but I think it comes from company cars that were required to be locked when not being used. I DO use the kill switch if I arrive home in the dark. I open the gate, ride the scooter down the driveway and turn her around to face the gate, hit the kill switch and have light to go back to the gate to close and lock it. Then put the scoot in the garage and turn the ignition off and lock the steering.
When my wife crashed her scoot I immediately turned around and the first thing I did was hit the kill switch on her scoot. She didn't have sufficient experience at that point to do it as she came off. Then I had to try to find her - down a roadside bank and mainly okay apart from the broken wrist.

It's also to ensure the ignition isn't left on! Easy enough to do if you distracted in any way (let alone having senior moments). On some bikes this could lead to flattened batteries or distorted headlight lenses in a matter of hours.

The theft thing is a reality though in any urban environment. Leave your keys in the ignition in London and the bike is almost certainly gone within minutes.

And the theft thing is why the Police and advanced rider courses in the UK strongly suggest always turning off the bike with the key *and immediately removing it*.

I've been mulling this over this evening (it's evening here, and I am halfway through the wine already) and here's why I think this remove-the-keys-immediately thing is overblown at best, and maybe a collective delusion at worst:

You've still got to lock the steering before you remove the key, and you're likely not doing it while you're still sitting on the bike. And you're definitely not locking the steering before you put it on the center stand. Ever.


You could lock the steering while still sitting on the bike, but (a) on a modern Vespa, that would be pretty awkward to do before you got off the bike, and (b) on a GTS, that would imply that you aren't putting anything under the seat, either. Ever, if the key-removal habits of some are to be believed here.

So once again, I call bullshit. I don't think anyone is removing the key from a modern Vespa the moment that they stop. They are turning off the engine with the key, leaving the key in the ignition while they get off the bike, put it on the center stand, sorting whatever needs to be put away under the seat, and THEN locking the steering, removing the key, and walking away.

Yet somehow I'm to believe that people will leave the key in the ignition if they use the kill switch?

I reject that as implausible, and likely simply not true.

My memory is toast, so much so that it's medically documented (stupid concussion damage).

With the GTS, I used the kill switch, then I used the key to open the glove box & swap my glasses, then to pop the seat & lock the steering. I kept my shoulder bag (wallet, phone, etc) either under the seat, so that made sure I didn't forget my keys for more than a minute or two.

I also keep my keys segregated, again for memory reasons. House keys on one keychain, car keys on another, scooter or moto keys on a third, backups on a big ol' "keys to the castle" style ring that lived in my bedroom. Keys in use stayed in a dedicated pocket in my bag unless actively in use. That way, if I locked my keys inside something I wasn't entirely screwed.

Honestly...it started with the MSF rule, then I never got comfortable with taking my hand away from the front brake while a bike, any bike of mine, was running. The kill switch is just a thumb movement. The keys can be anywhere from under the bars (Vespas, BMWs, etc) to beside the triple tree (air-cooled Bonnies, etc) to somewhere on the engine behind your knee (several cruiser makes/models). The kill switch is ALWAYS next to the throttle. No need to change habits when you change bikes.

Regarding acceleration: Pin it to win it, then back off a touch when you hit the rev limiter.

Regarding kill or not kill: Kill, then key. ALWAYS!

I see, I was wrong. It can become an oil thread.

You can put the wrong oil in your scoot and ruin your bike. So I disagree.