Modern Vespa

We've had a recurring scenario taking place in the For Sale section lately — scammers quietly contacting members via PM about their For Sale and Wanted posts. Some of them have even taken to referencing me in various ways, saying that they got something from me or that I said it would fit, or whatever.

I assure you they are scammers and that whatever they profess to possess never came through me.

Most (all?) of these scammers have been banned, but they do keep returning. Accounts are free, and they can keep generating new ones.

So the question is, what should we do about it? I can think of a couple of options off the top of my head, but I'm not fond of any of them:

- Restrict usage of private messages by new users. IIRC, we used to have a minimum post count, but it was constantly getting in the way of legitimate users that needed to PM for one reason or another. Actually, we might still have this limit — I would have to look at the code, and it's been a while.

- Allow private message sending only from members in good standing, with actual karma (i.e. half a roundel). Same problem as above, but it weeds out people who post useless responses just to get the minimum post count. Requiring karma levels would take longer, and be harder, but would likely result in better posts overall.

- On the For Sale side, I'm not sure we need to do anything, but I've never been particularly happy with the accounts who do nothing except buy and/or sell, without ever interacting with the general forum outside of the For Sale section. To me, it's a service for members, and "members" doesn't just mean someone with an account (IMHO).

Are there other options that would make scamming and/or flipping on MV less attractive? Let me know. I'm open to suggestions.

Also, if you've experienced PM scammers here on MV, even if you've reported it in the past, it would be helpful to summarize your experience here in this thread.

I asked about a junction box for my SS180. No response for a while until I got a pm saying a couple of people (email addresses given) had them and Jess (yes Jess) had one. Email addresses were dodgy as they had gaps or other warning signs. A quick pm to Jess confirmed my suspicions that this was a scam, those "member(s)" were banned. Had another one recently and checked with Jess but the scammer had been identified and banned by jimc. No harm done here, but pretty disappointing. Administrators and moderators don't need this extra workload on a free forum.

Is there a way of making some kind of notice at the top of every thread/post in FOR SALE with some kind of disclaimer?

PS: Why no replies allowed in that forum? Just curious.

Too many arguments about pricing vs. value.

What about something like the PM restriction ideas, but just for that forum? Would it be possible/difficult to have new users restricted from posting or viewing just that particular section until they've either reached a certain number of posts or attained a certain level of karma on the rest of the forum? I've encountered scenarios like that on other platforms and sites, so I know it's a thing. But I also know MV has it's own special Frankencode that may or may not be reasonably compatible with certain ideas.

Make the For Sale section invisible to new members until a post/karma point reached.

The problem with limiting PMs based on usage is that a lot of people find forums like this when they either want to buy or want to sell something. So you would lose some of the people who did a search and found what they are looking for, or decided to sell something they had sitting around.

Is it possible to require an address and phone number, not shown to members, and capture the IP addy, or require a photocopy of a govt issued ID, whenever someone with less than a secret number of posts (which only the mods know, it could be 7, it could be 57) wants to post in the FOR SALE or reply to a post in the FOR SALE section? Asking for a photo of a govt issued ID as an attachment to the PM, that you can decide if the seller gets to see or not, but the moderators definitely can see, would cut back on a lot of this. If the seller gets to see it, they know they are dealing with a real person, and where that person lives, so if they live in North Dakota and want the seller to ship something to a Regis in Kansas, the seller would know it's probably a scam.

And whiners gonna whine. So you would need to ignore everyone who says it's a violation of their freedom or some such nonsense.

There are companies like MaxMind that have a pretty good record of spotting scammers. If you charge something like $1.00 for ads (whatever break even would be), and require a credit card or paypal, you will get rid of about all the scammers on that side. As far as buyers, that's a bit harder. You can set your site as the go between, and process the payments from the buyer to the seller, which would be automatic, has a good history of weeding out the scammers on both sides, and might generate a bit of revenue.

Are the scammers IPs geolocated and do they come from one or two countries in particular? There are entire countries I've had to block because all we get are fake accounts with stolen credit cards coming from those places. There could be an override for legit Vespisti from those areas who want to participate in the forum, with a code that would allow them to register.

The key is going to be finding a way to weed out the scammers that is cost effective, or free, and doesn't require human input. That's something every ecommerce company in the world would love to have.

Something I would like to add, for sellers-
Check the shipping address. If it's a Regis work center, or anything that's not a house or business that's not a place that forwards packages, do more due diligence. You can ask for a Govt. issued id before you send anything, and the buyer can snap a photo and text it to you. If they won't, there's likely something afoot.
And google the name of the person, and the address separately. If you google the address alone, and the buyer's name comes up, it's usually legit.

Isn't that a good thing though. On the local motorcycle forum I'm on, two of the most popular threads are:

1) "Stupidly overpriced motorcycle for sale thread" (8,000 replies)

2) "The Reasonably Priced Used Motorcycles for Sale Thread" (7,000 replies)

Both are exactly what they sounds like. Both are people discussing price vs value every day.

In those conversations the real winner are the new riders, or riders who are new to buying a used bike, because they can gain a ton of insight from the more experienced ones who will fine-tooth comb details of a bike they might not have seen or known to look for or consider.

I've been on that forum about 20 years, since I was a teenager a couple years before getting my first bike. I learned (and still learn sometimes) so much from threads like those.

Let's get rid of the mods and talk about politics, religion and why someone's an idiot for thinking their bike's worth whatever they think it's worth. That'll liven the place up.
The reason this place is nice is that the members aren't allowed to bait, troll or go after one another. Civil discourse works well.

lol, that's a cute straw man argument, but there's a big difference between conversation which can directly benefit new less experienced people coming into a community, versus people debating viewpoints unrelated to a community.

There are quite a few well meaning, but misguided individuals that like to be helpful, but offer advice that is often outright wrong.
I read an article online recently about negotiating the purchase of a motorcycle at a dealership, and it was obvious the writer knew absolutely nothing about the subject matter. They recommended the buyer not put out a number first. The rationale behind this idea was something along the lines of the dealer would then know how much they can get out of the buyer.
The writer of that article obviously doesn't know how to negotiate. That's the type of advice you often get online, it's free, and of as much value to someone wanting to purchase a motorcycle as some jackanapes weighing in on the value of a bike they know nothing about.

But I digress, the point I think Sully was trying to make is that the section of the Forum is called For Sale / Wanted, not "what's everyone's opinion about what my bike is worth? feel free to chime right in even if you have no interest in buying it and can't afford extra cheese on a pizza."

Suggestion #2 karma threshold sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I belong to an astronomy forum that restricts Classified postings until a member has a set number of posts. It's not perfect, but you gotta be able to exercise some control over the site.

What's the going price for a planet these days?
The problem with not letting first time posters list things for sale is that someone might have no interest in participating in a Vespa forum, but might have a very nice low miles PX or GTs that has been sitting in the garage since the other half left, and they want to sell it fast and cheap. They find this site, where a lot of us would be very interested in this model and a deal, and can't post it for sale because they don't have the right amount of Karma.
We don't want to run off the very motivated sellers.

Those kinds of threads exist and are popular here, too. Not in the For Sale section, though. Check NSM and General Discussion. eeek - strongly disagree with all of the above I think it's nice that "the management" here wants to head this off but I don't see it as their responsibility. Modern Vespa is not an ecommerce company. I can not imagine a scenario where I would provide a copy of my ID to any on-line seller or buyer or middle-man. Additionally, I'd be suspicious of any transaction where it was requested or required. However, I appreciate the tip to verify the address.

I like znomit's idea, assuming hiding a forum is possible.

So every time you've bought or sold something in the For Sale/Wanted section, what steps did you take to make sure you weren't getting taken?
Asking for ID is done quite often in Ecommerce. Some sites, like Poshmark, require buyers to submit ID once they reach a certain level, others require it whenever certain internal alarms are triggered. Try selling something on Amazon without letting them know who you are. All the big sites require seller ID verification, and have systems in place that verify buyer identification as well. Identifying the people selling on your site is commonly referred to as compliance with the law.
The goal, as I see it, is to figure out if the people who join only to buy or sell an item, and do nothing else, are legit. If I was selling something expensive on any site, and someone with no participation history wanted to buy it, I would ask for an ID. If they got indignant, or started whining about their privacy, I'd move on to the next person. There's a dollar value at which just shipping something because the buyer got indignant when you asked them to identify themselves just doesn't make sense.
If someone hacks a paypal account, which does happen, and buys your $900 item, you've lost your item. And you can literally use TOR to find sites where you can buy hacked paypal accounts.
I do agree with you that MV is not an ecommerce site and it's better to educate sellers and buyers as to what to look for in a transaction than to expect the site to police buyers and sellers. So if you're selling something expensive online, and someone with no history on the site joins just to buy it, ask for an ID. If the buyer gets indignant, bounce them. You don't lose a sell if the buyer intends to steal the item from you.
Maybe instead of changing the forum, a list of best practices to screen buyers and sellers would help.
There are other warning signs. One is that the buyer doesn't care how much shipping costs, and wants to know if you can overnight something if they pay extra. How many sane people are willing to pay $100 more to get a used luggage rack a day sooner than they would otherwise?

The cranky caucus of MV is notorious for shitting on other people's sales, usually with regards to price. The thing is, pricing is not uniform everywhere in the world, or even everywhere in the US.

The problem is especially pronounced with vintage sales, where there is a strong contingent that thinks pristine vintage bikes should be priced like barn finds, because that's the way the market was 30 years ago when they first got into it.

Put another way, this is why we can't have nice things.

On the outside chance this is a sincere question, I will answer.
The last two items I sent to MVers was done via pms and texts. They were not long-time members and I did not know them. They sent payment by Venmo or Zelle and I sent a photo of the shipping receipt. I wouldn't get indignant but I would not send you a photo of my ID and you would lose the sale if I was the buyer. In both of the cases I referenced above, I got three quotes for shipping: USPS, UPS and FedEx. It was the buyer's choice. The fellow who bought a set of crash bars selected FedEx even though it was $80 more than USPS.

edited to correct spelling and to add
I did have an unfortunate experience with an MVer that I met in person, rode with for several days and (mistakenly) thought was trustworthy. I picked up +/- $200 in GTS parts and shipped them to Winnipeg for him. I should have asked for $ before I shipped but as I said, I thought he was good for it. Months and months of delay tactics, excuses, etc. The funny thing is, a scooter pal spotted him at an AmeriVespa years later. His spiel then was "Um, yeah. The ride's about to take off. I'll give it to you later." So, yeah, some folks will steal from you.

Two things:
1) You're conflating price discussion threads and private sales. The two are not the same. Everyone has a right to ask for what they think something is worth. Either someone else agrees with that and buys it, or they don't and they move on. Where I'm from, we call that capitalism. The people who are shitting on other people's sales are without exception not actually interested in buying regardless of price. They're just there to stir the shit.
2) "lol, that's a cute straw man argument" is straying off the path of civil discourse. You're not actually nearly as clever as you think you are. Knock it off.

Hiding the forum is definitely possible, but it has a major downside: it would hide the For Sale section from legitimate first-time buyers and sellers who found Modern Vespa in the process of trying to buy or sell something.

To be clear, I don't mind if accounts with no history use the For Sale section. I'm primarily looking for ways to mitigate scammers and, maybe, habitual flippers.

So you know how many users join for that. And how many stick around?

Agreed. We do capture the IP address of every post, as does nearly every forum. And we can geolocate the IP addresses down to city and country, though it's not 100% perfect — IP address blocks do get reassigned from time to time.

I don't believe we're dealing with the typical overseas scammers, however — I think we're dealing with someone who is reasonably well versed in scooter paraphernalia, and is targeting MV specifically because they have sufficient subject knowledge.

Also, I think the primary MO is PMing legitimate members who have posted a Wanted ad — someone correct me if I'm wrong about that. So asking for a gov't ID on a For Sale ad wouldn't really work, unless the scammer changes their tactics.

And honestly, I don't want to be in possession of a bunch of people's IDs. That has legal, financial, and security implications that we are simply not equipped to deal with.

I have a different perspective. Modern Vespa is a public service. People come and people go. If someone's first and last encounter with MV is to list their bike for sale, we are still happy to provide that service to them, for free.

Okay, but not scammers. And if someone wants to make the argument that flippers are people too, I'm listening. I'm not even positive that I want to do anything about flippers, but thought I'd throw it into the conversation to hear other people's perspectives.

As a first step, how about making the FS forum read-only until the new member has at least one post (maybe just an introductory post) in GD? The moderators now have some considerable skill in spotting dodgy accounts, and it would be a small extra hoop for new buyers and sellers.

It'd be nearly impossible to prevent a determined scammer whatever we do, but this could be a trial 'first step'.

It's certainly possible, but I'm not sure the scammers are actually listing things for sale. Are they?

In any case, as I said above, I don't mind if someone's first and last experience with Modern Vespa is listing their bike for sale. That's not really the group I'm trying to discourage.

I've also toyed with the idea (for like a decade, so don't hold your breath) of making the FS forum not a forum at all, but a dedicated classified service, complete with location / radius calculations built in.

One day. I don't think the goal is to necessarily make it impossible to scam — I think the goal is to make it harder to scam without affecting the people who use the FS section for legitimate purposes. And that includes newbies.

Just don't ban that single post with the Ape 501 Pizza Truck. I have it bookmarked and pull it up once a week to dream of a new Piaggio & Pizza life in order to avoid defenestrating my boss.

Other than a cute name for a Dolphin, whats a flipper? Is it the same as a scammer or similar but different?

I think Flippers is referring to non-contributing forum members who are only here to scrape sale listings to make a quick buck bartering in scoots.

As Trenchleton alluded to, flippers are people who don't participate in the forum at large, but buy and sell bikes / parts / whatever. They are in the "buy low sell high" business. They might even be buying salvage bikes and parting them out as a side hustle.

I think for me, the main point is that they don't really participate otherwise. If it's just some guy from Peoria selling the LX150 that he bought on a whim and then never rode, no big deal — happy to have MV help them move it along, even if he's never posted on MV before. If it's someone just churning parts, I'm not sure I want to give them the same latitude.

But again, if someone wants to make a case for flippers as part of the ecosystem, I'm listening.

Correct. Which presents another great learning opportunity. Like when we had a thread about the value of the Euro crashing and I few of us bought hundreds of dollars worth of parts from the EU to this side of the ocean for dirt cheap.

People aware of what's going on in all different regions of the world only let members have more access to more information from more markets.

At the end of the day it was just a question I always wondered about and some food for thought for the decision maker(s).

On the other forum, we have plenty of members who do snatch up the bikes in the threads I mentioned. Different zoo, different monkeys. When both your parents wereborderline geniuses you're never able to think yourself clever man lol. I'm just having conversation with another member I respect, have discussed working with, and enjoy engaging with. Life's short, don't forget to smile my friend.

I've owned dozens of different models of motorcycles over the years, I'm in facebook groups for each of them. This is rampant there. Usually people with blatantly fake profiles too, but many don't know any better.

The scammers know enough to take pictures of these parts and list them or wait until someone posts a wanted ad. The parts get paid for but never sent. A couple weeks later someone posts their experience along with the profile. Guy signs up for a new gmail account, makes a new facebook with a new fake name, rinse wash repeat.

Be very careful who you send money to. Ask for a pic of photo ID before sending money. If you wouldn't be able to show up at their house and beat their ass, and you can't afford to lose that money, don't send it.

All of those things are reasonable precautions that one may want to observe as a participant in a private sale. I'm still looking for ways (read that as technical countermeasures) to make scamming on MV less appealing.

We've managed to sidestep most of the forum spam that plagues the rest of the internet in a largely automated fashion. It's not perfect, but automated bots simply do not make it through on MV. The spam that does get through is via manually-generated accounts driven by real humans (almost entirely from India), and even then we waste a lot of their time on failed registrations.

I'd like to figure out a way to do the same for the scammers. If I can waste their time, that's a win.

Kinda depends what the definition of flipper is. I buy a couple motorcycles a year from customers that have left them sitting for years and just need to get rid of them.

Usually they have very low mileage because no one loved them enough, and I give em fresh gas, brake fluid, oils, filters, tires, and sometimes chai or a carb clean and come spring time you get rewarded for breathing new life in an old machine.

Sometimes I just see the exact same make/model of one of my bikes, but it has discontinued aftermarket parts I can't get new anymore so I'll buy the whole bike, take the parts that I want, do some quick safety stuff to the purchased bike (tires, brake fluid) and send it back out into the wild from whence is came hoping to break even.

A buddy of mine flips dozens of bikes down in Texas, typically all neglected old 60-80s Japanese bikes that he painstakingly restores. He's one of the most meticulous people I know. He'll replace stuff no one will ever see, just because he didn't like the way it looked. I'd consider myself lucky if I could buy one of his flips.

TLDR: I think if you're looking after the well-being of motorcyclists/scooterists, not misleading buyers, not cutting corners on safety, flipping a few bikes (like me), or a dozens (like my friend) is okay... But if you're being greasy about it, well, that's a different story.

Can you do an auto-reply to any every new thread posted in the FOR SALE with general safety tips and examples of scams, or even an auto-DM to the inbox of anyone posting a thread in that forum of what scams to look out for?

It's not directly stopping the scam attempts from happening, but it's arming the people posting with information that they might not otherwise be aware of, and putting that info front and center for them.

Personally if I was a scammer scrolling through forums in my bad guy lair, and every ad I saw for sale had a reply right after explicitly explaining the scam I was trying to run, I would probably find another forum to target.

Food for thought.

That's a good idea. Include "Avoid dealing with anyone with a fake beard", and "Cat people are 100% trustworthy".

You participate in the rest of the forum areas, so while you might be doing some flipping on the side, you're not the target I had in mind. I'm talking about the guys that have never posted anywhere else on MV, but have many posts in the FS section.

This is a good suggestion. Thanks.

Many forums I participate on have a rule of ten posts before you can even reply to a for sale item and some time up to 25 posts before you can list an item for sale. Yes, this would keep the ones that just want to sell and leave out of circulation, but it might keep down some of the scamy nonsense.