Modern Vespa

While my son, just turned 30, has a car license he has never owed a car. Until Harvey floods he rode a Sports City 250 and since the floods killed that scoot a BV350. He started riding on a restricted license at 15 (Texas at 15 max 250cc, no passengers and no riding between midnight and 6 am unless to/ from school/work). Starting with a scooter before getting his car license has made him a much better driver/rider as he learned situational awareness early on.

We've all heard stories about multi-bike accidents on group rides. Take a look at Mayorofnow's video of the oncoming bus and ask yourself what you would do in that situation. The bus might have missed him by less than a foot. But that's all it takes. Someone who can keep their wits about them in a situation like that is an ideal riding partner. They aren't going to overcorrect and take you out when you go around the corner and meet a car taking up a lot of your lane.

As far as unsafe rural situations, I see a lot of people on motorcycles sitting in the left side of their lane, wandering down the road at or below the speed limit, with a long line of cars behind them. Don't piss the drivers off. Sooner or later someone's going to fly past the line of cars, and cut right over in front of that rider, maybe throwing something out the window or brake checking as they come over. It's illegal, but "I had the right of way," isn't much of an epitaph.
If you cannot keep up with the flow of traffic, get out of the way. If you are ever in a riding situation where you're the lead vehicle and people in RVs are lining up behind you, find another hobby. It's just a matter of time.

^^^ this is one of my biggest bugbears: cars driving well below the speed limit. Especially annoying when there are signs that tell drivers to pull over and let faster cars through (common in the mountains) and they ignore these signs and go round corners at half the speed limit and they go back to the speed limit on the straights that are too short for me to overtake on. Aarrgghh

If you back off and position yourself so you are about three or four lengths back, and on the outside as you enter the corner, you can hit the throttle hard, bring the bike up and slip past them on the inside as they are coming out of the corner, and have enough time to rein it in and set up for the next one. You want to sort of laze through the corner, and use the distance between yourself and the car to accelerate as soon as you start to cross your lane and lift the bike up. if you're too close, you can't grab enough throttle without hitting the back of the car, which you don't want to do. And you have enough time and space to make a correction if you see a police car coming your way or parked on the side of the road waiting for scofflaws. Ideally, you will either be on the edge of your lane or just over the line into the opposite one as you pass.
It it's a double yellow line and you pull over five miles down the road to take a photo because it's a Cannonball checkpoint, be prepared for the car to stop and the driver's wife to scream at you that you nearly gave her husband a heart attack, or so I've heard.

If you take the open lane, the light turns green and you go slower than who you went around, you might be a moron.
I want lane filtering so bad I can taste it.

while I don't believe you should get caught speeding, you are much safer riding at a speed where:

"What's behind you doesn't matter."

— Enzo Ferrari
During my second Scooter Cannonball, where I had one of my absolute best stupid riding moments (this isn't it), there were a lot of times where I could go down the hills very fast, pass everyone, and then labor to go up, and get passed again. I pulled over to the edge and let everyone pass. One couple got sort of pissed about the third time this happened, but by the tenth time, they would fly by me and wave, and I would wave back when I passed them going down hill. I don't know them, never saw them again, and we all got where we were going.

"I collect data on fatal casualties in traffic from a number of countries.

So there is definitely something going wrong in US traffic."

I think the main problem in the U.S. is the almost total lack of enforcement when it comes to traffic laws. Most countries enforce their traffic laws. In the U.S. it's just become a free for all, and traffic laws have not been enforced in so long that it would be almost impossible to start doing it now. People have been allowed to do whatever they want for so long they now believe they have the right to do it. Trash technology has also played a part. Whose dumb idea was it to put touch screens in cars, and to connect cars to the internet? When you are driving a car, that is ALL you are supposed to be doing.

This is why Italians all ride motorbikes. Teenagers aren't allowed cars, but they are allowed motos. There's a stretch of highway between the Golden Gate Bridge and Stinson Beach where you'll inevitably get stuck behind a Prius/Subaru/Volvo going <20mph and ignoring all the turnouts. Even better, they'll finally stop at the top of a hill on a blind corner and try to wave you by.

I spent one ride fantasizing about getting home and writing a Craigslist Missed Connection for a "Marin driver who won't pull out."

Speeding being an universal issue within traffic, and as such it is often a form of an aggressive behaviour = responding agressively makes it just worse. There is actually some pretty good advise at the United States Department of Transportation:

'Here are some tips for encountering speeders on the road:

If you are in the left lane and someone wants to pass, move over and let them by.

Give speeding drivers plenty of space. Speeding drivers may lose control of their vehicle more easily.

Adjust your driving accordingly. Speeding is tied to aggressive driving. If a speeding driver is tailgating you or trying to engage you in risky driving, use judgment to safely steer your vehicle out of the way.

Call the police if you believe a driver is following you or harassing you'.

Solid advice for encountering both speeding cars and bikes.

have ridden 50K+ on motorcycle and scooter in US and Europe. Had 2 very close calls in that time on the 30+ bikes. In Florida there are specific cities I refuse to ride in anymore - one is Vero Beach, another is tarpon springs. The elderly retired believe its a constitutional right to drive a deadly weapon car regardless if they cant see 10 feet head, turn head - and worst is 10% have a killer attitude about bikes - they don't want them in their town and will see you and purposely pull out in front to watch you scatter. It's why chopper maker Billy Lane had an assortment of hammers, bolts, big nuts, etc on some builds and he told me it's there to get in front of them and coin flip it overhead at speed, lol. anyhow.. Melbourne going north to 295 in Jax is great. south FL is a death wish on a bike. BUT recently driving due west from Miami Beach into inner Miami I saw islanders on dirt bikes and ATVs pulling wheelies so deep they slap the pavement behind them - what an amazing site! Im talking way past 90 degrees. west coast FL is okay EXCEPT Rt19 (6 lanes with suicide lane center - blue hairs pulling in front of everyone not looking to turn across all 6 lanes) one person dies each day on 19 and an accident every hour, according to an EMT I know. I think the nursing home clearances (semi-mercy killings) done by our medical folks during the covid times have cleared a big chunk of that population and temporarily made roads a little safer - but now the 20-40 covid/jab-brain-fogged people are filling up the void made by the clearances.


edited for disagreeable turn of phrase -mgmt

Uh, not necessarily. There are many, many factors that differentiate the U.S. from other smaller, more homogeneous countries which would contribute to these statistics (aside from "American drivers and traffic suck").
I'm certainly not defending the average American driver, but any comparison between the USA and Belgium, especially regarding car culture via demographic statistics, is foolhardy.
As for the question are cities more dangerous than the country, OF COURSE they are.

Ride, anywhere, an hour or two before sunrise for a relaxing and invigorating outing. Cities look better in the dark, and the countryside is pleasantly mysterious.
O.S.

I can not agree with you more, both urban and rural riding have dangers. The more familiar one is with the areas they ride in , the safer they will be. Chit happens no matter how good or safe a driver one is.

I mean, is it more dangerous? Is that even a question?

If 70% of the cars stopped working in the city would it be safer? Welcome to the suburbs.
If 90% of the cars stopped working in the city, would it be safer? Welcome to the boonies.

Sure, any time you're add more variables, more complexity, and (key point here) more self-entitled idiots, it gets more dangerous...

And of course, buttfuck nowhere has it's own dangerous. Horse shit in the middle of the road typically isn't something I have to worry about too often in the city, but I don't pass by 1,581 driveways, parking lot entries, laneways, and other blind places where cars can pop out and kill me from, I just have one poop and vast expansives of comparable nothingness...

but as someone who does 90% of his riding in the most densely populated city in the country, my question is... So what?

Might want to check the Hurt Report on that one lol. It indicated the exact opposite.

The most likely place to have an off is the place you let your guard down. Take that Hurt Report.

Right. And according to the Hurt Report, that's close to home. Which is the opposite of this: All clear now?

I think experience helps with riding in urban areas. If it's what you are used to you develop the urban specific situation awareness needed to reduce the risk of those environments. I personally have always ridden in urban commute environments so feel really uncomfortable on open roads, I am just not used to the high speeds.

Since covid the speed limits here in London are now are 20 mph. It has always been a very physical commute as there is always a lot going on. I don't think the speed limits changes have made it safer for motorcyclists at all. You now need to learn now how to deal with the cyclists on carbon fibre bikes who are riding on your back wheel in heavy traffic, the riders of those crappy electric bike conversions with virtually no brakes and the packs of everyday cyclists that fill every gap there is in the road. (Also delivery riders too)

For me I think if you are going to do urban riding you need to adapt your riding and situation awareness to that environment. That takes practice, occasionally doing urban riding is always going to feel uncomfortable ( as is open roads for me).

Lack of attention to what one is doing definitely ups the odds that karma will visit no matter how safe ones knowledge of location they are in. Exceptions to the rule often not only can but will bite you in the butt.

What many that compare the United States with other countries do not seem to take into account is that a quite large percentage of the people in the USA are NOT Americans, but foreigners (legal and illegal). The amount of non Americans may account for why the USA is often found to be much different then any other country.

I live in a county that has not one red light and the county seat has only one stop sign. Seems fairly safe driving or riding.
Your premise is laughable when compared to a place that's rural or low traffic volumes where a rider is often only at the mercy of their own abilities and the vagaries of the weather and road conditions.

Honestly, I'm left to ask what you might consider unsafe?

I've ridden in Mexican large cities where traffic sort of plays bumper cars such as cattle in a truck. Driven in Jamaica where they pass Anywhere!
Not too my liking or safety when you add more idiots to the equation.
Murphy's Law when riding two wheels: "There are no fender benders on two wheels".

It's one factor, for sure. But the US is like dozens of countries. LA is nothing like Cape Cod, and New York couldn't be more different than Owensboro, Kentucky.

This is an interestingly timely thread. I was a city scooter rider for years in the mid-80's Atlanta, somaybe that's why I feel less vulnerable in a bit of urban traffic, versus coming up on a 2 way stop cross road in a rural area. Maybe I irrationally feel more visible due to proximity. I dread going along a 55mph two lane and seeing a truck on my right waiting to make a left turn. I try to make eye contact and scope out their front wheel for any motion. Anyway I was pondering this yesterday and not sure I have an answer. I relaxed noticeably when I got into town and had traffic around me. Maybe that's irrational.

Agreed. And comparing an European country that was designed around horses and cart VS most American cities that were designed around the automobile, does not work.

Maybe over there, but not here. Regardless, I would love to take a scoot ride in different parts of Europe someday

Yes, according to research: urban roads are riskier,
for motorcyclists though not by much. Here are some recent statistics regarding PTW accidents.

For more see: https://housegrail.com/motorcycle-accident-statistics/


I also recommend reading at least the summaries of the Hurt report (US study) and MAIDS study (from the EU and more recent), that helps a lot if one wants to understand when, where and why motorcycle accidents are likely to happen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_findings_in_the_Hurt_Report

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAIDS_report

The main parameter for me that is really worthwhile to compare is fatal casualties per million capita.

In Europe common transport may be more important, but the share of it remains small: somewhere between 5 and 10% of people transportation. The large majority, over 75%, is cars.

There is no reason to assume driver education is playing a role. So far never ever it was proven that whatever driving education is better.

On healthcare you have an important point. Some years ago I was at a seminar on road safety and there was a lecture in which it was explained how different the approach today is compared to let's say 50 years ago.
Back in the days the aim was to get the victims as soon as possible to the hospital. Today it is all about stabilizing a victim on the spot and taking good care on how to remove him/her from the wreck without doing any harm before going to the hospital.
I think this approach really makes a difference.

And of course there is the passive safety in cars that has improved enormously.
It was the 2001 Renault Laguna that was the first car to reach a 5 star rating at the Euro NCAP tests. A milestone.
The known as safe brands, not to say Volvo and Mercedes, failed and also the Japanese and the US manufacturers were lagging behind but today all new cars meet that 5 star rating. No doubt this Euro NCAP tests made a big difference. Euro NCAP is by the way not governmental, it is a private initiative, derivated from Formula 1 racing.

yep. ive been riding in one of the biggest cities in north america for years now. assume everyone is an idiot, drive with care, keep your head on a swivel and all's good.

It's Toronto. They usually are

won't most of the driving be close to home ? but it is also where you are more likely to be texting and not paying 100% attention.. vs. a new place that has me checking 6, 3, 9 and 12 routinely...

The highest percentage of car issues/breakdown/road debris/flats for me has been in Europe. fortunately no accidents in EU - they take even close-calls seriously and send people after the drivers to find out what is going on -- esp. if in major city. That's something not done at all in the USA. EU has much more surveillance, mech detect, speed/light cameras, etc.

remember a stat in US motorcycle training lit. your most likely to have a motorcycle accident in the first 6 mos of riding on the road.

Some hang it up then, some are killed, some injured - its like 75%,

Growing up in Nevada, whenever you'd see a selfish/reckless/aggressive car on the road, you'd shout "CALIFORNIA DRIVER!"

Most of the time, the plates bore it out.

Yes, something like that.

That's why I was calling out this safety fallacy below, as a reminder for people to keep their guards up, even on their own streets.

Very interesting, that summary, and very recognizable.

Hmmm, but you don't think European countries i.e. France, Germany & Italy just to name a few don't have a high proportion of foreigners (legal & illegal). I think its an issue many countries face.

USA at 15%
Canada at 20%
NZ and AU at 30ish.

The obvious one is the Isle of Man at 50%, roads are often full of lunatics

Check out the Vatican at 100%.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/immigration-by-country

Same trend in Australia since the 1970s and Australia does have an automobile culture. A number of factors I think including safer cars, improved roads & stricter road laws (speed & alcohol).

It is definitely more difficult for immigrants who do not have paperwork to get a driver's license nowadays. When I came here in 1990 all it took was my social security card and my passport and I got my driver's license. Immigration is not the only problem. It's hard to believe but a third of Wichitans don't have a valid driver's license. That also happens when they don't pay their citations or they get a DUI and don't have the money to reinstate their driver's license or they miss court dates.

Since the fuel efficiency monitors on cars and gas going way up, many cars in my hood, even high-line ones are taking forever to get up to the speed limit, they are missing out on the flow of green lights that are engineered in for normal acceleration and likely burning more gas, not less

I certainly think that those that would tell ME what I think have a problem that might need professional help. I have been informed that those that pretend to know what others are thinking have a personality disorder, and those that insinuate I am saying other than what is written, in my opinion, are just not worth having a conversation with. Those that are legally in a country will not be the same as the many tens of millions of illegal aliens that have invaded the USA.