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@fatbear5 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Posts: 1223
Location: Fresno, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Location: Fresno, CA
UTC quote
This is actually an update of my thread Looking for a project scooter but now that I've found a project scooter, I wanted to start a new thread dealing with the rebuilding of Red Rover.

I bought the scooter off Facebook Marketplace and paid $1300 including delivery to Fresno. The first step was to put it on the rack and see what I had bought and I soon learned that a lot of the original parts were missing so it is going to be more complicated than originally anticipated but it shouldn't be a problem.
Original Marketplace ad
Original Marketplace ad
Delivery to Fresno
Delivery to Fresno
On the rack
On the rack
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@fatbear5 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Location: Fresno, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Location: Fresno, CA
UTC quote
Unfortunately, it's too damned cold to do much work in the garage but I've started by addressing the ignition switch and it's wiring. Red Rover is a 1977 model has VIN VSX1T 789 so it is a VERY early P200 and came with a 4 pole ignition switch however when I got it, all the wires under the headset were loose and I have no idea how to connect them to the switch. Fortunately, I've gotten a lot of help from the Forum guys.

I wrote:
"I need help wiring an ignition switch for Red Rover. RR is an early 1977 model with the old 4 pole switch. When I bought it, there was no ignition switch, and all the wires were just hanging loose so I'm stuck. I don't know where the wires should go.

I did some checking and found that in the Off position poles 2 and 4 are connected so I'm thinking that the green kill switch wire should connect to pole 2.

In the On position, poles 1 and 3 are connected so I'm thinking that the red wire from the battery should go to pole 1 and the black wire should go to pole 3 although the connector on the black wire is too small and will have to be replaced. There are three connectors on the black wire. If one goes to the ignition switch, where do the other two go?

What goes onto terminal 4? I have a two-white wire connector and a three-wire connector available. If one of those goes to the ignition switch, where does the other one go?

I have a wiring diagram but I'm not very good at reading it. Besides, it shows a newer ignition switch.

I'm at a loss so I'd appreciate and help you guys can give me."


Fortunately, you guys came through with great advice:

From Ray 8

2-4 disconnected on:
Black (ground) from the horncast junction box to either 2 or 4. Two other black connectors are ground to the speedo and indicator lights.
Green (kill wire) to the other 2 or 4.

1-3 connected on:
Red (from battery) to 1 or 3.
Whites & green/white(?) from the flasher relay to to the other 1 or 3.


Thanks too to SaFi5, Kowlaski, whodatschrme and especially Orwell84 for all their help... with photos. I'll get out to the garage with my multimeter and see if I can get this hooked up.
4 pole switch
4 pole switch
The way I got it.
The way I got it.
@greasy125 avatar
UTC

Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
 
Sergeant at Arms
@greasy125 avatar
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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UTC quote
nice! I like it. starting a new thread helps keep it all in one place and easily accessible for if you need to go back and review!

you're making great progress, carry on!
OP
@fatbear5 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Posts: 1223
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Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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UTC quote
Yes Greasy, one step at a time... one slow step at a time.
@spacecat avatar
UTC

Hooked
Vespa Primavera 1974
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Posts: 223
Location: Nebraska USA
 
Hooked
@spacecat avatar
Vespa Primavera 1974
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Location: Nebraska USA
UTC quote
You got this under control but I'll say for newcomers reading this, that the time I spent with the wiring diagram, a notebook and colored pencils, a multi-tester, and all the switches and bits helped me understand my wiring in a completely transformative way. No more mysteries.
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@fatbear5 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Molto Verboso
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1977 P200, 1980 P200
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UTC quote
spacecat wrote:
You got this under control but I'll say for newcomers reading this, that the time I spent with the wiring diagram, a notebook and colored pencils, a multi-tester, and all the switches and bits helped me understand my wiring in a completely transformative way. No more mysteries.
Unfortunately, I'm not having the same Learning Experience that you did. I have the ignition switch wired up as per the recommendations from the forum members but not one of the lights work. I have no idea what to do next but I'll work on it over the weekend... maybe I'll stumble onto the solution.
Ignition switched wired up
Ignition switched wired up
@langolson avatar
UTC

Hooked
Vespa 125 VMA, Vespa SS 180
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Posts: 210
Location: Minneapolis, MN
 
Hooked
@langolson avatar
Vespa 125 VMA, Vespa SS 180
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Location: Minneapolis, MN
UTC quote
One thing on the P series headset wiring that has caused problems for me. The high beam and neutral indicator bulb sockets have a positive and a negative. If you don't pay attention to the markings (see photos), and hook up the wiring backwards, you short out. Just saying...
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
@spacecat avatar
UTC

Hooked
Vespa Primavera 1974
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Location: Nebraska USA
 
Hooked
@spacecat avatar
Vespa Primavera 1974
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UTC quote
Fatbear5 wrote:
Unfortunately, I'm not having the same Learning Experience that you did.
It's because you're not done yet.

Which is an asshole thing to say, but true. But thanks for posting here so I can learn too.
@orwell84 avatar
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Ossessionato
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Ossessionato
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UTC quote
This is the nature of the beast with wiring. It can be a long and frustrating game, but eventually your understanding of it will be much better and future fixes will be simple.
@christopher_55934 avatar
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Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
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Ossessionato
@christopher_55934 avatar
2007 Stella 225
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UTC quote
spacecat wrote:
You got this under control but I'll say for newcomers reading this, that the time I spent with the wiring diagram, a notebook and colored pencils, a multi-tester, and all the switches and bits helped me understand my wiring in a completely transformative way. No more mysteries.
You're not kidding, first time I looked at wiring diagram for one of these scooters I was like what is this. Mashup of AC and DC circuits, circuits that are DC at idle or not running but on, then AC while running. Scooters from 90's that still have 100% of current from a headlight running through a switch like something from 70's, instead of a relay.
@ray8 avatar
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Molto Verboso
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Fatbear5 wrote:
have no idea what to do next
Switch wiring is correct.

Battery charged, right?

To do next:
Read these two points with your multimeter on DC.
Switch off, then on.
Red probe on #1.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
@orwell84 avatar
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Ossessionato
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UTC quote
That green ground wire is made of cheezwhiz. It could easily be broken somewhere in the frame.
UTC

Addicted
1968 VBB150
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Addicted
1968 VBB150
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UTC quote
Also, is there a fuse by the spare? I didnt have lights (on my P125)until I fixed that issue.
@hmc_mt avatar
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Hooked
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
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Location: Montana
 
Hooked
@hmc_mt avatar
P200e, All State VNB, Stella 2T
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UTC quote
There's a Robot video from Scooter West on YouTube showing the process of running a new green wire. I'd recommend a view sorry no link but Orwell is right and it'll cause spark issues later as well.
@orwell84 avatar
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Ossessionato
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Ossessionato
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UTC quote
So first things to check…Is the red wire bringing juice to the switch? Is the green wire grounded?

I have done a lot of automotive wiring, but doing a Vespa, I start again at zero looking at diagrams, figuring out circuits and checking them 1 by 1.

Eventually you will know it inside out. Really helpful when you get stuck. I was driving my VW bus one night and it just died…some random electrical fault had killed the main power. I was able to route another hot wire from a blower fan to the ignition coil and I was on my way again. Next morning, I found a switch with a broken solder joint. All that time with the wiring diagram paid off.
@orwell84 avatar
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Ossessionato
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UTC quote
For some reason, I like driving long distances with my favorite old crates. It forces you to be your own mechanic and become well acquainted with the "ass that bears you". It's really the only way unless you just want to take it to get ice cream. It has meant pulling stuff apart on some lonesome road, but eventually that part of the experience tapers off and it becomes reliable driving most of the time.

Getting my Stella going was similar to making my VW bus roadworthy many years ago. The difference with the Stella was that at this point in my life, I enjoy the roadside tinkering as part of the process.
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@fatbear5 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
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Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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UTC quote
Langolson wrote:
One thing on the P series headset wiring that has caused problems for me. The high beam and neutral indicator bulb sockets have a positive and a negative.
I wasn't aware of that Langlson, I'll watch for that.
OP
@fatbear5 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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UTC quote
Ray8 wrote:
Switch wiring is correct.

Battery charged, right?

To do next:
Read these two points with your multimeter on DC.
Switch off, then on.
Red probe on #1.
Got it, I've got power to pole #1 and Yes, the battery is brand new so that shouldn't be a problem.
OP
@fatbear5 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1223
Location: Fresno, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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UTC quote
orwell84 wrote:
That green ground wire is made of cheezwhiz. It could easily be broken somewhere in the frame.
The Deadly Green Wire is ok. That was one of the first things I checked and I've got continuity from the ignition switch to the CDI. I was thinking that there could be some lost insulation in the tunnel that could be intermittently shorting out so I was wondering if I should just disconnect the green wire from the ignition switch while I am working on other lights... or does the green wire need to be connected for the lights to function?

Fuse is ok... I've blown a couple of them but I have plenty of replacements
OP
@fatbear5 avatar
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Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Posts: 1223
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Molto Verboso
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1977 P200, 1980 P200
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UTC quote
spacecat wrote:
It's because you're not done yet.

Which is an asshole thing to say, but true. But thanks for posting here so I can learn too.
Good point. Right now it's too damn cold to do any work in the garage so I'm putting everything on Hold for now. Hopefully it will be warmer next week.
@ray8 avatar
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Molto Verboso
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Fatbear5 wrote:
That was one of the first things I checked and I've got continuity from the ignition switch to the CDI. I was thinking that there could be some lost insulation in the tunnel that could be intermittently shorting out so I was wondering if I should just disconnect the green wire from the ignition switch while I am working on other lights... or does the green wire need to be connected for the lights to function?

Fuse is ok... I've blown a couple of them but I have plenty of replacements
Green has nothing to do with lighting.

Btw headlight/high beam indicator is AC directly from the stator, via the purple to the high/low switch. Horn, turn signals, other indicators and tail lights DC through the key switch.
@orwell84 avatar
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Ossessionato
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UTC quote
The whole AC/DC separate circuits thing just does me in. It's not that complicated, but still…
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Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Posts: 1223
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Yesterday I was able to spend some time in the refrige... uh, garage long enough to install the headlight and a new LED turn signal flasher before my fingers went numb. Too cold to check any of the wiring but hopefully, it will be warm enough soon to get back to work.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
@christopher_55934 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
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Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Ossessionato
@christopher_55934 avatar
2007 Stella 225
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UTC quote
Fatbear5 wrote:
Yesterday I was able to spend some time in the refrige... uh, garage long enough to install the headlight and a new LED turn signal flasher before my fingers went numb. Too cold to check any of the wiring but hopefully, it will be warm enough soon to get back to work.
LOL, looks like it was 51° in Fresno?
OP
@fatbear5 avatar
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Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
But much colder in my garage. I'm a Hot Weather guy so the cold really bothers me.
@greasy125 avatar
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Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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Sergeant at Arms
@greasy125 avatar
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
UTC quote
Christopher_55934 wrote:
LOL, looks like it was 51° in Fresno?
we're a soft bunch out here. but it's been no joke cold the last few weeks.

my shop is sheet rocked and insulated, but it's cavernous and unheated so unless you're standing within blast range of the propane heater it's balls cold.

when you start blowing vapor in the shop, it's time to call it for the night.

or, like when you take a beer out of the fridge and it freezes up on you.
@orwell84 avatar
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Ossessionato
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UTC quote
Worked in my garage under my bus for a couple hours at 35*. I work better in the cold. Mid 90's would be considered hot here. I can't get much done in heat like that. It's what you're used to.
@christopher_55934 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
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Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Ossessionato
@christopher_55934 avatar
2007 Stella 225
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UTC quote
greasy125 wrote:
we're a soft bunch out here. but it's been no joke cold the last few weeks.

my shop is sheet rocked and insulated, but it's cavernous and unheated so unless you're standing within blast range of the propane heater it's balls cold.

when you start blowing vapor in the shop, it's time to call it for the night.

or, like when you take a beer out of the fridge and it freezes up on you.
#1, drink whiskey, no fridge needed it won't freeze at those temperatures.

#2, you also have to pee less so your balls stay in your warm thermal underwear.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
OP
@fatbear5 avatar
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Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Number two makes sense to me!... not to mention Number Two.
@orwell84 avatar
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Ossessionato
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UTC quote
That's a good idea. After a combined 3 1/2 hours or so of working on a cold concrete floor I am aching.

I keep forgetting that I'm not 25 anymore. If I put something down there to support my head, lots of light with all tools comfortably within reach, it goes a lot better. More often than not, I just throw myself under the bus or scooter and start blindly flailing.
OP
@fatbear5 avatar
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Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
I've got light! Or at least I did for a second or two.

I just wired up my new LED Flasher, following the example I used on Spermy, which is a 1980 P200. That is I connected the White wire to terminal P, the Red/White wire to terminal 49 and the Green/White wire to terminal 49a. I don't have any of the actual signal light bulbs installed but the the tell tale light flashed when the switch was in both the Right indicator and the Left indicator AND in the Off position. Then the fuse blew.

I swapped the Red/White and the White wires with the same result and finally I moved the Green/White wire to the P terminal, the White Wire to the 49a terminal and the Red/White wire to the 49 terminal and the same thing happened. I understand that the Red/White and Green/White wires are interchangeable so I didn't swap them.

Now what I do? Does anyone have any suggestions. (The flasher is new and I expect that it is ok)
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
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Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
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UTC quote
Need to change the indicator, indicator to a led. It's drawing enough current to activate the led flasher.
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@fatbear5 avatar
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Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Ok, I'll try that.

How should the wires be connected?
@orwell84 avatar
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Ossessionato
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UTC quote
It might be due to not having light bulbs.
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@fatbear5 avatar
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Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Can someone tell me please if the White wire goes on the P terminal? That's the way I had it initially but I don't know if it is correct. I understand that the other two wire connections are interchangeable

I want to test the system with LED bulbs installed but need to be the connections are correct
@mjrally avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 59 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 90 V5N 50, 2015 HD Road Glide Special
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Location: Oceanside, CA
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@mjrally avatar
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 59 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 90 V5N 50, 2015 HD Road Glide Special
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@fatbear5 avatar
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Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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UTC quote
Thanks MJ Rally but I don't have an L terminal… just P, 49 and 49A. See pic above. Is P the same as L?
@ray8 avatar
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Molto Verboso
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Green/white to 49
White to 49a
Red/white to P.

Looks like the way you had it shorted the battery to ground at the headset indicator(?).
Or another short somewhere.
OP
@fatbear5 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Location: Fresno, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Posts: 1223
Location: Fresno, CA
UTC quote
Ok, I give up!

For now at least. I can't get any of the lights to work and I'm guessing that I have a short someplace but I don't really know how to find it. I'll deal with it later. In the meantime, there is still plenty of other work that needs to be done, beginning with replacing the bellows.

I couldn't get the new one on so I removed the tank so I could get to the bellows from both sides. I was going to pull the tank anyway to replace the American style petcock valve as well as the rock-hard gas and oil lines so it was no big deal… except that, judging from the shape of the gasket, it was probably the first time the tank had ever been removed. It was a bugger to get out. Because it's out, I'll run an extra pair of wires from the horncast to the battery box in case I want to add a new horn or something else later on.

Even with the tank removed I haven't been able to get the new bellows on so I guess I'll boil it and see if that helps.
Oil and fuel lines definitely need to be replaced.
Oil and fuel lines definitely need to be replaced.
The crappy American style valve was broken when I got it so I"ll replace it with the good European style rod.
The crappy American style valve was broken when I got it so I"ll replace it with the good European style rod.
Just a few of the fuses that blew while I was trying to get the electrical system working.  Son of a bitch!
Just a few of the fuses that blew while I was trying to get the electrical system working. Son of a bitch!
@kowalski avatar
UTC

Hooked
2005 Stellalossi 177 Fe
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Posts: 477
Location: MA
 
Hooked
@kowalski avatar
2005 Stellalossi 177 Fe
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Posts: 477
Location: MA
UTC quote
Where did you get the bellows? The more plasticy Indian ones will never work. Your only chance is with the more rubbery Piaggio ones.
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