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UTC

Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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UTC quote
SaFiS wrote:
They shouldn't be so long. Have you routed them correctly behind the exhaust and installed a protecting sheath??
Yeah, I always use a sheath. I remember that from when I use to date.
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bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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UTC quote
SaFiS wrote:
125/150 in front, 200 behind…
Hey Chris, pretty sure cables go behind the exhaust on 150s and 200s. They only go in front on the old 125 wideframes.
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UTC quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Hey Chris, pretty sure cables go behind the exhaust on 150s and 200s. They only go in front on the old 125 wideframes.
Never seen them behind on a 125/150 Vespa cause they foul the cylinder's exhaust stub and exhaust manifold. The 200 cylinder stub is at an angle and to the out that's why the cables go behind...

Two pics from an old and newer (Euro 3) manual...
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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Fatbear5 wrote:
I've got a good cutter, it's skill that I lack. I'll practice on an old outer.
Pull the ferrules off with pliers and flare them a bit with a phillips screwdriver.

What happens is even with bypass cable cutters the metal will crush.
Stick a wire/cable as close to the ID of the outer in it before cutting and do a quick cut. Practice farther out. You can always open it up with with a pin/nail.

With a utility knife, cut the lining to a bit of a cone (maybe 3mm) and wind on the ferrule.
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UTC quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Hey Chris, pretty sure cables go behind the exhaust on 150s and 200s. They only go in front on the old 125 wideframes.
Sorry Mike, I couldn't remember for sure, so I just looked. Three out of three small block motors have the cables in front and looks like no way they'd work well routed behind without a sharp bend. But yes, routed behind exhaust stub on the P200 motor in my Sprint.
a much straighter route and over an inch away from the header pipe
a much straighter route and over an inch away from the header pipe
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Ray8 wrote:
Pull the ferrules off with pliers and flare them a bit with a phillips screwdriver.
.
Stick a wire/cable as close to the ID of the outer in it before cutting and do a quick cut. You can always open it up with with a pin/nail.

With a utility knife, cut the lining to a bit of a cone (maybe 3mm) and wind on the ferrule.
Good advise Ray8. It worked well and now the Outers are properly installed. Unfortunately in all my screwing around I bunged up the Inners. There are so many kinks and bends I can't use them so I am ordering another set.
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
If anyone is upgrading to a SIP Road 3.1 and has a Road 2,0 or a Road 2.5 that they want to get rid of, I'd be interested in buying it for Red Rover.
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
I'm still having trouble with the gear shift cables. I have new inners and outers but shifting up to 3rd is still really hard and getting into 4th takes two hands. I took off the shifting box again and I can move the shift handle through all the gears with no problem which makes me wonder if there is a problem in the transmission.

As a matter of course I replaced the shift cross however I found that a contemporary shift cross does not fit on the original shift spindle. Red Rover is a 1977 P 200 and the threads on that spindle and cruciform are a little bit different from today's spindle and cross so I replaced the old spindle with a new one and I added a new cruciform. I'm wondering if using a different spindle might be contributing to my shifting problems. Has anyone run across this situation?

I don't know how the transmission shifted with the original spindle and cross because when I got the scooter, the engine wasn't running so I couldn't test-ride the transmission. I just replaced the shifting cross because I always replace the shifting cross when I split the case.
When disconnected, I can shift through the each position with no problem.
When disconnected, I can shift through the each position with no problem.
The handle is aligned (almost).
The handle is aligned (almost).
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bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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UTC quote
Can you shift through all the gears by pushing and pulling on the spindle with the rear wheel off the ground?
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Can you shift through all the gears by pushing and pulling on the spindle with the rear wheel off the ground?
Yes, and that's what is so frustrating. The spindle slides through all 4 gears, although it seems a little clunky. It feels like the new spindle/cruciform are ok and I sure don't want to split the cases again to put the old spindle/cruciform back in to see if that solves the problem

Is it possible to make the cables too tight? I could loosen them a bit
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Sounds like you have the cable tension ok. If you have the selector box off and it changes smoothly, it's usually fine. When the motor is running, it might need some fine tuning to get it comfortable.

But using 2 hands to shift to a gear is a sign the gears are worn and/or not shimmed properly. Usually too loose.

Not sure what shaft and style of cruciform you have on there, but quarter mm tolerances will make or break shifting.
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Fatbear5 wrote:
As a matter of course I replaced the shift cross however I found that a contemporary shift cross does not fit on the original shift spindle. Red Rover is a 1977 P 200 and the threads on that spindle and cruciform are a little bit different from today's spindle and cross so I replaced the old spindle with a new one and I added a new cruciform.
Are you sure that you installed the correct type of new cruciform and rod?
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
108 wrote:
But using 2 hands to shift to a gear is a sign the gears are worn and/or not shimmed properly. Usually too loose.

Gear shims… I never thought of that. When I replaced the spindle and cruciform I used the old shim because that was all I had. It might have been a bit loose but I figured it was "close enough ". I believe the stock shim measures 2.00 (is that right?) so I ll order the next size up and see what happens
⚠️ Last edited by Fatbear5 on UTC; edited 1 time
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
roland87 wrote:
Are you sure that you installed the correct type of new cruciform and rod?
I bought the only P200 spindle on the Scooter Mercator website and I haven't seen more than one spindle for the P200 anywhere else so I think I'm ok.
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Fatbear5 wrote:
I bought the only P200 spindle on the Scooter Mercator website and I haven't seen more than one spindle for the P200 anywhere else so I think I'm ok.
Can you post a link to that contemporary cruciform you ordered?

The selector box, spindle, cruciform and axle were changed in 1983.
These parts can't be mixed with early P series parts.
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
This is the spindle I bought from Scooter Mercato. https://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Cruciform/130940. It measures 20 mm in diameter as does the original. I'm pretty sure I have the correct one installed.
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you can't just order the next shim size up - you have to measure the gear clearance and get it into the tolerance range. ideally towards the low end of the tolerance range (0.15-0.4mm if I remember correctly). the closer you get to the bottom end the better it will do over the long haul.
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UTC quote
Is it possible to confuse https://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Cruciform/223232 with the one you ordered?
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bodgemaster
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UTC quote
Did you remember the little spacer washer that goes on the end of the spindle?
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Grumpnut wrote:
Is it possible to confuse https://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Cruciform/223232 with the one you ordered?
No, I ordered part #130940 and that's what was shipped to me... at least I assume that that's what I got. It was back in June and I don't have the original package but Scooter Mercato has always been very good with their shipping so I'm certain that I got what I ordered. In fact I'll be ordering a larger shim from them shortly. I THINK that the stock shim is 2.00 (can someone confirm that for me please) so I'm going to order this 2.10 https://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Shoulder-Washers/SHW-LF-2.10
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UTC quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Did you remember the little spacer washer that goes on the end of the spindle?
Yup.
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Fatbear5 wrote:
No, I ordered part #130940 and that's what was shipped to me... at least I assume that that's what I got. It was back in June and I don't have the original package but Scooter Mercato has always been very good with their shipping so I'm certain that I got what I ordered. In fact I'll be ordering a larger shim from them shortly. I THINK that the stock shim is 2.00 (can someone confirm that for me please) so I'm going to order this 2.10 https://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Shoulder-Washers/SHW-LF-2.10
Measure your gear stack clearance, you can't just guess. You need to measure what you have and the clearance to know what you need.
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bodgemaster
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Fatbear5 wrote:
Yes, and that's what is so frustrating. The spindle slides through all 4 gears, although it seems a little clunky. It feels like the new spindle/cruciform are ok and I sure don't want to split the cases again to put the old spindle/cruciform back in to see if that solves the problem

Is it possible to make the cables too tight? I could loosen them a bit
With the selector box on, the cables disconnected, and the rear wheel off the ground: Can you click the batwing smoothly through all the gears while spinning the wheel?

It's possible to make the cables too tight. But it's usually one side or the other. I adjust them until the shifter can twist maybe halfway between the numbers.
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Molto Verboso
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sdjohn wrote:
Measure your gear stack clearance, you can't just guess. You need to measure what you have and the clearance to know what you need.
Yes, I plan to do that if I can't do a little more tinkering to make things better.
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UTC quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
With the selector box on, the cables disconnected, and the rear wheel off the ground: Can you click the batwing smoothly through all the gears while spinning the wheel?

It's possible to make the cables too tight. But it's usually one side or the other. I adjust them until the shifter can twist maybe halfway between the numbers.
I haven't tried moving the batwing while the shifter box was connected but I took the shift box to my mechanic/friend Al, and he said that it was a little stiff but otherwise ok. With the cables connected and the shifter box not connected, I can click the batwing through the gears although they are a little stiff.
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UTC quote
I did a little more tinkering hoping that I could improve things without splitting the case to check the spindles, cruciform and shims. I loosened the cables and now I can shift through 1st, 2nd and 3rd fairly well (still a little stiff) and I can get into 4th but it takes a hard twist. At least, I don't need to use two hands to do it any more.

Does that sound like sound like a shim problem?

I suppose I could cheat the cables around a bit so that I shift into 4th a little sooner in the cable travel. The numbers won't line up but I can live with that.

Any thoughts?
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UTC quote
Sometimes, I have misasjusted by cables so that one or the other doesn't have enough slack, making 1st or 4th hard to shift into.
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UTC quote
For me, it's always clumsy shifting while on the center stand and the rear tire up. Spinning the tire and shifting is usually stiff going from gear to gear at a standstill.

If I were you, I'd warm it up and take it for a spin and see if it's as stiff as it is while on the stand...
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qascooter wrote:
For me, it's always clumsy shifting while on the center stand and the rear tire up. Spinning the tire and shifting is usually stiff going from gear to gear at a standstill.

If I were you, I'd warm it up and take it for a spin and see if it's as stiff as it is while on the stand...
This ^
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Fatbear5 wrote:
No, I ordered part #130940 and that's what was shipped to me... at least I assume that that's what I got. It was back in June and I don't have the original package but Scooter Mercato has always been very good with their shipping so I'm certain that I got what I ordered. In fact I'll be ordering a larger shim from them shortly. I THINK that the stock shim is 2.00 (can someone confirm that for me please) so I'm going to order this 2.10 https://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Shoulder-Washers/SHW-LF-2.10
Unfortunately, I usually order a few sizes because you never know, saves time and shipping.

With the selector rod, just have them side by side and measure the length.

I brought one from SIP and they confirmed the correct part over email, but it didn't fit, the threads were too long and I ended up with a gap.
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Fatbear5 wrote:
I did a little more tinkering hoping that I could improve things without splitting the case to check the spindles, cruciform and shims. I loosened the cables and now I can shift through 1st, 2nd and 3rd fairly well (still a little stiff) and I can get into 4th but it takes a hard twist. At least, I don't need to use two hands to do it any more.

Does that sound like sound like a shim problem?

I suppose I could cheat the cables around a bit so that I shift into 4th a little sooner in the cable travel. The numbers won't line up but I can live with that.

Any thoughts?
Cheating the cables wouldn't do anything. You're just guiding the batwing into its notches with the headset lever. The batwing doesn't care where you are at the lever.
It's also impossible to have one cable tighter than the other, since tightening one will just rotate the headset lever and tighten both overall.
Btw you can also line-up your numbers from where you are now (close) by turning the adjusters equally in opposite directions.

The spacer Socal mentioned has a beveled side that face the spindle. Not sure if installing it backwards is enough to cause your issue, but if you're uncertain and about to split the cases anyway, you could carefully remove the spindle to verify.
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UTC quote
Fatbear5 wrote:
...

I suppose I could cheat the cables around a bit so that I shift into 4th a little sooner in the cable travel. The numbers won't line up but I can live with that.

Any thoughts?
Yes, just do this and test while riding, not on the stand. You need the cables snug but not too tight. You only have so much 'throw' on the shifter in your headset when adjusted snug and you want that matched up with the travel on your batwing so it's easy to get into both first AND fourth. Matching up w/ the marks on your shift grip is nice, but not required and if that's important to you, you can usually fine tune AFTER you can hit all gears OK by adjusting one cable in and the other out the same amount as already mentioned.
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V oodoo wrote:
Yes, just do this and test while riding, not on the stand. You need the cables snug but not too tight. You only have so much 'throw' on the shifter in your headset when adjusted snug and you want that matched up with the travel on your batwing so it's easy to get into both first AND fourth. Matching up w/ the marks on your shift grip is nice, but not required and if that's important to you, you can usually fine tune AFTER you can hit all gears OK by adjusting one cable in and the other out the same amount as already mentioned.
It always takes me a few attempts to get the selector box set up when putting in new cables. Good to completely rule that out before splitting the box. Sometimes I will adjust the cables with 1st engaged (or 4th) if I'm not able to select all the gears. Takes me at least a few tries to get it close. I think you might be having this problem.
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orwell84 wrote:
It always takes me a few attempts to get the selector box set up when putting in new cables. Good to completely rule that out before splitting the box. Sometimes I will adjust the cables with 1st engaged (or 4th) if I'm not able to select all the gears. Takes me at least a few tries to get it close. I think you might be having this problem.
I'd never thought of adjusting cables in anything other than the neutral position. I think I'll see what happens if I start in the 4th gear position… that's the one that is giving me trouble

I probably won't get to it today… I have a leaking toilet that is calling out to me
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Fatbear5 wrote:
I'd never thought of adjusting cables in anything other than the neutral position. I think I'll see what happens if I start in the 4th gear position
That won't help.

Have you ruled out a too-big pinch bolt hitting the cover?
Grasping at straws here
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orwell84 wrote:
It always takes me a few attempts to get the selector box set up when putting Sometimes I will adjust the cables with 1st engaged (or 4th) if I'm not able to select all the gears. Takes me at least a few tries to get it close. I think you might be having this problem.
Yeah Ray8, I'm grasping at straws now. I tried adjusting the cables in 4th gear but that didn't help. It still takes two hands to shift into 4th. Shifting from 2nd to 3rd is no problem and it's usually a little easier shifting down through the gears that it is shifting up.

I have no idea what to do next so I'm going to start tearing things down and comparing each element on Red Rover, which is a 1977 P200, to Spermy, my 1980 P200. I'll start by removing the shifter boxes and comparing the travel of the cables on each scooter. Even though I have new inners and outers in Red Rover, they don't seem to move easily and that might be my problem.

Then I'll mount the box from Spermy on Red Rover and see if that makes a difference. If not, I'll split the case and follow up on some of the other suggestions I've had from you guys. I'll check the gear shim and, if need be, I'll pull the new cruciform and spindle and reinstall the old cruciform and spindle to see if that makes a difference.

If none of that makes a difference, then I'll have to take it in to my mechanic and see if he can find the problem... Damn!

I'll probably start on it tomorrow which means there is still time for our forum members to post other possible solutions for me. Thanks for what you've suggested so far.
UTC

Ossessionato
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
Joined: UTC
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Ossessionato
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2250
Location: Philadelphia
UTC quote
Fatbear5 wrote:
Yeah Ray8, I'm grasping at straws now. I tried adjusting the cables in 4th gear but that didn't help. It still takes two hands to shift into 4th. Shifting from 2nd to 3rd is no problem and it's usually a little easier shifting down through the gears that it is shifting up.

I have no idea what to do next so I'm going to start tearing things down and comparing each element on Red Rover, which is a 1977 P200, to Spermy, my 1980 P200. I'll start by removing the shifter boxes and comparing the travel of the cables on each scooter. Even though I have new inners and outers in Red Rover, they don't seem to move easily and that might be my problem.

Then I'll mount the box from Spermy on Red Rover and see if that makes a difference. If not, I'll split the case and follow up on some of the other suggestions I've had from you guys. I'll check the gear shim and, if need be, I'll pull the new cruciform and spindle and reinstall the old cruciform and spindle to see if that makes a difference.

If none of that makes a difference, then I'll have to take it in to my mechanic and see if he can find the problem... Damn!

I'll probably start on it tomorrow which means there is still time for our forum members to post other possible solutions for me. Thanks for what you've suggested so far.
If you disconnect the cable inners do they slide back and forth easily in the outer cable housing? If not there's your issue. There shouldn't be any issues when using your hand to push and pull the inners.
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UTC

Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1358
Location: Fresno, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1358
Location: Fresno, CA
UTC quote
FridayMatinee wrote:
If you disconnect the cable inners do they slide back and forth easily in the outer cable housing? If not there's your issue. There shouldn't be any issues when using your hand to push and pull the inners.
Yes, the cables move smoothly... sort of. Frankly, they're not as smooth as I would have expected but I don't think the drag is enough to cause the problems that I've been having. That's one of the things I'll check as I take things apart.
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'74 50s x3 '87 PK125XL '92 PK50XLS Plurimatic - & - '58 AllState '68 Sprint '66(?) Super125 '72 DanMotor Super150 and '04 Bajaj LML hybrid
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Style Maven
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'74 50s x3 '87 PK125XL '92 PK50XLS Plurimatic - & - '58 AllState '68 Sprint '66(?) Super125 '72 DanMotor Super150 and '04 Bajaj LML hybrid
Joined: UTC
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Location: seattle/athens
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He's right, you need your inners to move far enuff to be effective thru the full range of grip travel. Try this if your inner cables are long enuff: Use the bungee trick with your pinch bolts removed, and see if they move smoothly for the full range of your headset shifter quadrant. Remove your headset cover so you can SEE it to verify!

I like to set mine in 4th gear w/ the grip indicator masking taped in 4th and w/ shift box in 4th, pulling the inner tight against the headset end before I cinch the pinch bolt because the 4th gear side is so much easier to get at. Now I can remove the masking tape, shift to 1st and pull both cables tight w/ my bungee and set the inner pinch bolt easily now with shift box in first gear. Job done.

Look here if you don't know the bungee trick, but I hope you didn't trim back your cable inners too short... Facepalm emoticon https://modernvespa.com/forum/post1547312#1547312

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
{snip} "After I set bungee up, I clutched it & shifted all thru the gears, rocking tire as req'd with STILL lots of tension on BOTH lines & with NOTHING loosened by me yet.
Then I put transmission and shift handle both in neutral & viola! Look at the slack I found! If it's the back one that needs adjusting, you can put transmission & shifter grip both in 1st to get at it easier. This technique works well for clutch & brake as well."
OP
@fatbear5 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1358
Location: Fresno, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1358
Location: Fresno, CA
UTC quote
Yes, I used the bungee cord technique and will use it again. It makes things a lot easier. First I need to identify the basic problem and that's what's driving me crazy. The fact that I'm not able to simply adjust the cables properly makes me worry that there is a problem with the gears themselves.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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