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UTC

Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 PK125XL Elestart, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
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Ossessionato
@safis avatar
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 PK125XL Elestart, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
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UTC quote
Pump o-rings are the same as the one used for the clutch arm…
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UTC

Ossessionato
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UTC quote
SaFiS wrote:
Pump o-rings are the same as the one used for the clutch arm…
That helps a lot, actually.
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Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
SaFiS wrote:
Pump o-rings are the same as the one used for the clutch arm…
THAT is great news... thanks.
UTC

Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
whodatschrome wrote:
Something interesting about the check valve...my low mile 2005 PX150 didn't come with a check ball or spring...neither did my other 2005 PX150 that had even lower miles.
I thought I lost mine but nope just doesn't have one either. Pretty sure my engine is from 2005 as well.
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parallelogramerist
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parallelogramerist
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UTC quote
FridayMatinee wrote:
I thought I lost mine but nope just doesn't have one either. Pretty sure my engine is from 2005 as well.
Yeah, weird huh? From what i remember, the little white plastic spring retainer was still pressed into the cavity, but no ball or spring.
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Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
I got my parts shipment today so I started working on replacing the check valve. I FINALLY got the plastic retainer out but I can't get the ball out. It feels like it's stuck at the bottom of the channel. Right now I'm soaking it in penetrating oil but does anyone have any other better suggestion?

BTW.today's Priority Mail shipment arrived this afternoon. I wonder what Second class mail would have looked like
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Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Gotcha ya bastard!

It was the oil pump check valve that was causing Red Rover to smoke so badly. When I finally got the plug out I found that the spring was bent and the ball bearing was stuck at the bottom of the check valve channel. I couldn't get it out so I soaked it in penetrating oil overnight and was finally able to break it loose the next morning. Now that I have cleaned the channel and installed a new spring, the problem seems to be solved. I'll keep an eye on it though while I deal with the next problem.

I know that the pic looks like it's part of a Peyronie's Disease ad but it's actually showing what the new spring looks like and what my old spring looked like.
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UTC

Addicted
1961 VS5T, 1981 P200E, Rigid Frame Chopper, 2001 Harley FXDXT
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UTC quote
Fatbear5 wrote:
Gotcha ya bastard!

It was the oil pump check valve that was causing Red Rover to smoke so badly. When I finally got the plug out I found that the spring was bent and the ball bearing was stuck at the bottom of the check valve channel. I couldn't get it out so I soaked it in penetrating oil overnight and was finally able to break it loose the next morning. Now that I have cleaned the channel and installed a new spring, the problem seems to be solved. I'll keep an eye on it though while I deal with the next problem.

I know that the pic looks like it's part of a Peyronie's Disease ad but it's actually showing what the new spring looks like and what my old spring looked like.
Good catch!
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Ok, now what ??

I took Red Rover for a 40 mile shakedown cruise after rebuilding the oil pump and I was very happy to see that after a startup puff there is only minimal smoke and well within normal 2-stroke limits… at least withing MY 2-stroke limits. But now I've got something new.

While cruising in 4th gear the transmission slipped out of gear and then right back into gear after a moment… probably less than half a second. It happened a number of times in 4th and even a couple of times in 3rd. I found that if I push down on the gear shift handle I can hold everything in gear but when I let go, it tends to slip out of and into gear again.

By way of background:
1) I replaced the cruciform simply because I always replace the cruciform.
2) The new cruciform did not screw onto the original 1977 spindle so I replaced the spindle with a contemporary one. I was told that the threads on the original spindle and cruciform must have been damaged which is why a new cruciform won't fit on the old spindle.
3) It was extremely difficult to shift into 4th gear so I replaced the selector box and shifting is now normal… except for popping out of 4th gear.

After my weekend run I found that when in 3rd gear, the selector box roller fits snugly into the indentation on the selector but it does not in 4th gear. Could this be my problem and how do I fix it?

I have already adjusted the cables but the selector cannot be pulled far enough for the roller to seat properly in the 4th gear indentation. Any suggestions?
Shifter roller in 3rd gear
Shifter roller in 3rd gear
Shifter roller in 4th gear... almost.
Shifter roller in 4th gear... almost.
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Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Fatbear5 wrote:
While cruising in 4th gear the transmission slipped out of gear and then right back into gear after a moment… probably less than half a second.
Has anyone else had this problem? See above.
UTC

Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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UTC quote
Fatbear5 wrote:
Has anyone else had this problem? See above.
Yes, you just gotta readjust the cables. It's a delicate balance.
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
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Jet Eye Master
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UTC quote
You either have a wrong component somewhere between gear cables and cruciform. Several types of every individual part for each specific largeframe/cogs exist.
Or it might fudge with some extra gaskets to pack it out. If it will select 4th fully and spin the rear wheel with no clicking in neutral, it's good to go.
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FridayMatinee wrote:
Yes, you just gotta readjust the cables. It's a delicate balance.
I think that's the first thing to check. It takes me a few tries to adjust the sector box, so that I can select 1st AND 4th. If the pawl can get into the notch for 4th, it's not going to stay in gear. I think there are 2 possible issues:

1: Cable travel limiting the complete movement of the batwing (the rotating bit with the notches), or:

2. Something in the gear set/splindle/cruciform arrangement limiting the movement of the batwing.
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Jack221 wrote:
You either have a wrong component somewhere between gear cables and cruciform. Several types of every individual part for each specific largeframe/cogs exist.
Or it might fudge with some extra gaskets to pack it out. If it will select 4th fully and spin the rear wheel with no clicking in neutral, it's good to go.
this is what i had to do on my PX engine build to get it to select 4th. I think I ended up with 4 or 5 gaskets under the selector box before it would select and stay without clicking as I rotated the rear hub on the bench.
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
sdjohn wrote:
this is what i had to do on my PX engine build to get it to select 4th. I think I ended up with 4 or 5 gaskets under the selector box before it would select and stay without clicking as I rotated the rear hub on the bench.
I was wondering if a gasket or two would move the selector box enough to engage the indentation properly. I think I'll try that first as it seems to be the easiest.

I have already worked with the cables to adjust the pull but I couldn't get them to line up... but that may be due to my limited skills. I'll work with them again if the extra gaskets don't solve the problem
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I experimented (crudely) with it by snugging a thin washer between the case and the box and it worked, so then I moved on to "how many gaskets is enough?".
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Molto Verboso
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Fatbear5 wrote:
I was wondering if a gasket or two would move the selector box enough to engage the indentation properly. I think I'll try that first as it seems to be the easiest.

Well that didn't work!

I added two gaskets to move the selector box out a bit and I tweaked the cables a little more and even though the roller now fits snugly (almost) in the 4th gear indentation it didn't make any difference. The transmission still pops into and out of 4th gear while I'm riding.

Since I have a new cruciform, spindle and selector box, I'm wondering if one of those components might be the culprit. I can't go back to the old selector box as I can hardly get into 4th using that so I'm wondering if I should reinstall the original spindle and cruciform and see what happens.

I hate to open up the case again but I don't know what else I should try. Damn!
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Enthusiast
Lambretta GPs Lambretta S1s, Vespa Gl, Vespa P200, Serveta 150
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UTC quote
Dumb question but did you get the gear stack in the bike correctly? If a gear is put in to the bike boss to boss or face to face rather than boss to face it can cause this. Hope you figure it out, good luck.
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Yes I got the gear stack back in properly... I think

That question has been nagging at me for a little while and I have been hoping I could find another solution before addressing that possibility

Unless someone has another suggestion, I guess Im going to have to tear into the transmission again. crap!
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Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
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UTC quote
Fatbear5 wrote:
Yes I got the gear stack back in properly... I think

That question has been nagging at me for a little while and I have been hoping I could find another solution before addressing that possibility

Unless someone has another suggestion, I guess Im going to have to tear into the transmission again. crap!
I think you're options are limited, 4th gear cog might be worn out, either way, got to go back in.
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bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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UTC quote
The output shaft may not be fully seated in the hub bearing.

Before you tear the motor apart, get the rear wheel up off the ground.

Take the selector cover off. Put the scoot in neutral and watch for movement in the "batwing" as you spin the wheel.
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Take the selector cover off. Put the scoot in neutral and watch for movement in the "batwing" as you spin the wheel.
No, the batwing is solid. I checked that while I was adjusting the cables to get the roller to seat properly in 4th gear. It is just about in the proper place but I think I'll tweak it a little bit more before I tear into the gear stack.
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Could this be the problem?

I opened up the case and checked the gear stack and found that 4th gear wobbled quite a bit. I checked the space and found that it was .014 instead of the recommended .005 to .010. Could that be the reason that the transmission slips in and out of gear when I'm riding in 4th?

I replaced the stock shim with a 1.25 shim (the only one I had) and now the space measure .009 or .010 and I'm wondering if that could solve my problem. I also replaced the new cruciform and spindle with the original cruciform and spindle to see if that makes a difference. I hated using the old cruciform but it's not too badly worn and that could be a factor too. I'm going to use the new selector box but I'm also rebuilding the old one to see if I should go back to that.

Any thoughts?
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
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Jet Eye Master
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Put up pictures of it all. Especially the gear cog. Slightly sloppy gears only jump if the cog is worn.
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Molto Verboso
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Here is the gear alignment with the larger spacer. Does that look ok?
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UTC quote
Did you use two feeler gauges to measure the gear stack space? .016" is right at the upper limit of recommended spacing, but I don't know if that would cause jumping out of gear.

I wouldn't install old, worn parts without comparing them to your new. Id have definitely measured the new selector rod to the old one with the washer installed as that distance needs to be precise for proper shifting.
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Yes, MJ, I used the two feeler gauges and I'm pretty sure my measurements are accurate.

No, I didn't think to measure the old spindle for a comparison to the new one. I can't do it now as I am almost done putting it all back together again. I hated putting back the old cruciform but I'm at a loss as to what else to do.

As an aside, I would add that I had to buy a new spindle because a new cruciform does not screw on to the old spindle. I have been told that the threads are the same for new and old spindle/cruciforms and if a new cruciform does not fit on the old spindle, it is because the threads on the old spindle must have been damaged. Maybe Yes, Maybe No.

I'll keep you posted.
⚠️ Last edited by Fatbear5 on UTC; edited 1 time
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UTC quote
you split it to fix jumping out of gear and put a used cruciform back in???

you'll be back in soon if you don't swap that out now.
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Jet Eye Master
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Fatbear5 wrote:
Here is the gear alignment with the larger spacer. Does that look ok?
Cogs look fine but that's not where any issue will be. Need a picture of the inside of 4th gear. While the other 3 cogs are off, see how the cruciform sits in 4th gear. The problem will be here.
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Molto Verboso
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sdjohn wrote:
you split it to fix jumping out of gear and put a used cruciform back in???

you'll be back in soon if you don't swap that out now.
Yes SDJohn, I expect you're right I really hated putting the old cruciform back in and I did so only so I can possibly eliminate the new spindle/cruciform as the problem. If I don't pop out of gear with the old cruciform/spindle then I will know that the new spindle/cruciform is the source of the trouble. If that is the case, then I can come back to address the worn cruciform issue later.
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Molto Verboso
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Jack221 wrote:
Cogs look fine but that's not where any issue will be. Need a picture of the inside of 4th gear. While the other 3 cogs are off, see how the cruciform sits in 4th gear. The problem will be here.
I examined the inside of 4th gear and it appeared (to my inexperienced eyes) to be in good shape. Sharp corners and minimal wear. Of course, I don't have any experience with gears so I may be wrong. I didn't think to take a picture before I put it all back together but if I take it apart again (which is likely) I'll take a pic and post it.
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UTC quote
Jack221 wrote:
You either have a wrong component somewhere between gear cables and cruciform. Several types of every individual part for each specific largeframe/cogs exist.
Or it might fudge with some extra gaskets to pack it out. If it will select 4th fully and spin the rear wheel with no clicking in neutral, it's good to go.
What does it mean if there IS clicking in neutral. I just put everything back together and 4th gear feels solid but now when I spin the rear wheel while in neutral, I DO hear a clicking sound and I don't know what it is.

Any thoughts?
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Fatbear5 wrote:
What does it mean if there IS clicking in neutral. I just put everything back together and 4th gear feels solid but now when I spin the rear wheel while in neutral, I DO hear a clicking sound and I don't know what it is.

Any thoughts?
neutral on the box isn't aligning with neutral on the stack

this is why i ended up with the 4-5 gaskets in my px

clicking is no good. you'll need a spacer or perhaps a new box or a box rebuild.
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Molto Verboso
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sdjohn wrote:
neutral on the box isn't aligning with neutral on the stack

clicking is no good. you'll need a spacer or perhaps a new box or a box rebuild.
Damn, I was afraid of that.

Instead of using spacers on the new selector box, I'm rebuilding the original box with new roller, pin and pivot screw. I'm almost done except for reinstalling the damned spring... I can't do it! I can't compress it enough to slide it into place.

Is there a trick to installing this particular spring?
How do I seat this spring?
How do I seat this spring?
It's supposed to look like this.
It's supposed to look like this.
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Jet Eye Master
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Fatbear5 wrote:
What does it mean if there IS clicking in neutral. I just put everything back together and 4th gear feels solid but now when I spin the rear wheel while in neutral, I DO hear a clicking sound and I don't know what it is.

Any thoughts?
As said, either you need extra gaskets or it has the wrong selector box and/or rod.
Ride it around the block to check 4th. If it still jumps it needs a new cog.
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Molto Verboso
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Fatbear5 wrote:
Is there a trick to installing this particular spring?
Never mind. I figured out how to do it using zip ties as compressors.
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Jack221 wrote:
As said, either you need extra gaskets or it has the wrong selector box and/or rod.
Ride it around the block to check 4th. If it still jumps it needs a new cog.
Pardon my ignorance but I don't know what you mean by "cog". Can you clarify please?

I just finished rebuilding the selector box and I'm going to install it and see if the clicking goes away.

I'm still finding that it is very difficult moving the selector lever into 4th gear by hand is really tough. I'm wondering if I should file down the peak between 3rd and 4th. Is that a dumb idea?
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Damn, now I'm hearing a clicking sound in neutral even when the selector box is off. I wonder what that is telling me
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@sdjohn avatar
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8203
Location: San Diego, CA
UTC quote
what you want to do right now is move the selector rod in and out a bit and see if you can make the clicking stop. the clicking is the cruciform touching the gears.
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4472
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4472
Location: London UK
UTC quote
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/selector-box-px-alt_87046000

This should be the selector for your model. In 3rd gear the arm should be 1.5mm above the gasket face.

Cog is gear. Cog actually means gear tooth but in the UK its what we call a whole gear wheel.
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