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Hi I have a gets 300 i got as a stolen recovery . I need to get a new ignition switch and key Malcom Smith motorsports here in riverside gave me a $700 estimate I thought this was high but agreed to it . now they are yelling me to complete the job they need an ecu $685. and a key programmed to it total cost $1600
Does this sound right for a new master key and ignition switch.
Personally I think it is outrageous but this is my first vespa.. Are they trying to rip me off. Or is this reasonable please respond ASAP. Thanks
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Molto Verboso
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Brown Masterkey and ECU match individually. If there is no key, a new ECU is required. There should be the possibility to reflash an ECU, but no official Vespa workshop will do that.

Do you have at least the blue key?

What year is the Vespa?

You can find the parts on https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en to get an idea of the material costs.

Here is a video about the removal/replacement of an ECU, it gives you some background information and you can see what effort is involved. There are also videos linked to the exchange of the lock.
⚠️ Last edited by GermanGTSDriver on UTC; edited 1 time
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UTC quote
GermanGTSDriver wrote:
Brown Masterkey and ECU match individually. If there is no key, a new ECU is required.
Not true.
Quote:
There should be the possibility to reflash an ECU, but no official Vespa workshop will do that.
AF1 Racing will do it (among others in the US):
https://www.af1racing.com/AF1-RE-VIRGIN-AF1-Racing-Immobilizer-ECU-Service

Just $100.
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jimc wrote:
Not true.AF1 Racing will do it (among others in the US):
https://www.af1racing.com/AF1-RE-VIRGIN-AF1-Racing-Immobilizer-ECU-Service

Just $100.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong: there is no way to re-virgin the HPE ECU (2019 and later)? A look at the profile of the OP shows us "GTS 300 HPE 2022"... That's why I asked about the year of manufacture to double check…
⚠️ Last edited by GermanGTSDriver on UTC; edited 1 time
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GermanGTSDriver wrote:
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong: there is no way to re-virgin the HPE ECU (2019 and later)? A look at the profile of the OP shows us GTS 300 HPE 2022... That's why I asked about the year of manufacture to double check…
My apologies - I completely missed that - and also hadn't clocked that it can't be done to HPE models.
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jimc wrote:
My apologies - I completely missed that - and also hadn't clocked that it can't be done to HPE models.
I don't think I expressed myself well in my first answer either....
To make that clear: I'm not 100% sure that it don't work on HPE-Models, but I don't know of any trustworthy source that describes if and how an ECU-refresh works on an HPE.
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GermanGTSDriver wrote:
I don't think I expressed myself well in my first answer either....
To make that clear: I'm not 100% sure that it don't work on HPE-Models, but I don't know of any trustworthy source that describes if and how an ECU-refresh works on an HPE.
My local Vespa key copy expert tried copying the blue for my HPE and failed. But he can do all previous models.
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SteelBytes wrote:
My local Vespa key copy expert tried copying the blue for my HPE and failed. But he can do all previous models.
Copying (cloning) keys and resetting ECU are two different pairs of shoes. But you are right in that even from 2019 (HPE) the key has a different transponder technology.
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It is a 2022 and I appreciate all the replies . As I previously stated it is a stolen recovery I have no key blue brown or otherwise . I am just interested in wheather or not. The price that I am being charge is truly justifiable or am I being taken advantage if with this price $1600 usd
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onecat1dude wrote:
It is a 2022 and I appreciate all the replies . As I previously stated it is a stolen recovery I have no key blue brown or otherwise . I am just interested in wheather or not. The price that I am being charge is truly justifiable or am I being taken advantage if with this price $1600 usd
Please give me the prefix of your VIN. SuperTech or Classic/Super/SuperSport?
⚠️ Last edited by GermanGTSDriver on UTC; edited 1 time
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Do you have the brown master key?? If yes, you only need to move the chip to the new brown key and program the new blue key to your existing ECU…
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SaFiS wrote:
Do you have the brown master key?? If yes, you only need to move the chip to the new brown key and program the new blue key to your existing ECU…
onecat1dude wrote:
I have no key blue brown or otherwise .
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Didn't see that. That sucks then…
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the ecu is damn near 800 with tax
key set doesn't list that I can find right off, but I imagine it's like the old so there's about 75, if the antenna is messed up there's another 200, then odds and ends like the switch and lock body another 40-ish

so you're looking at an easy 1K in parts that I know of right off the bat. and that only considers that those prices are correct-- I'm not sure if the ECU and key set is that price for euro 5 stuff.

so, 1K plus a few hours of labor (let's say 100/hr).

1300 plus whatever else was broken or stolen and you can get to that 1600 real fast.
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greasy125 wrote:
the ecu is damn near 800 with tax
key set doesn't list that I can find right off, but I imagine it's like the old so there's about 75, if the antenna is messed up there's another 200, then odds and ends like the switch and lock body another 40-ish

so you're looking at an easy 1K in parts that I know of right off the bat. and that only considers that those prices are correct-- I'm not sure if the ECU and key set is that price for euro 5 stuff.

so, 1K plus a few hours of labor (let's say 100/hr).

1300 plus whatever else was broken or stolen and you can get to that 1600 real fast.
Yes, that can quickly move into the range. But to define the material costs exactly, you need the VIN prefix.
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GermanGTSDriver wrote:
Yes, that can quickly move into the range. But to define the material costs exactly, you need the VIN prefix.
very much so. SIP doesn't list (or I couldn't find) the ECU or key set for sei georni 20~22 300 HPE so at best, that's an educated guess on the parts.

either way I can see $500 in labor real easy and then you start adding up some of the ticky-tacky stuff like a battery and switches and wiring that's been hoopa-joop'd and all of a sudden it gets deep with the quickness.

anyway, my intention was to clarify that 1600 seems fairly reasonable in terms of repair costs from my stand point as a professional.
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Someone lost their car key and wandered into the dealer to get a new one and choked at the astronomical cost. So they asked the question "is this reasonable availability of spare parts?", and the disputes tribunal decided it was not reasonable for 33$ worth of parts to end up costing 500$.


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/toyota-nz-to-pay-up-after-businessman-goes-to-tribunal-over-525-key/34IT7BI7LTTY5VAHVHJ57UQIDA/
⚠️ Last edited by znomit on UTC; edited 1 time
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Please double check compatibility with your VIN:

Throttle Flap Casing PIAGGIO (with ECU)
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/throttle-flap-casing-piaggio_PI291701
$213.19

Lock Set PIAGGIO ignition lock
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/lock-set-piaggio-ignition-lock_PI004020
$59.76

Lock Body PIAGGIO ignition lock
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/lock-body-piaggio-ignition-lock_PI001876
$12.66

Antenna PIAGGIO for immobilizer
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/antenna-piaggio-immobilizer_PI638534
$186.43

Washer lock cylinder, PIAGGIO
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/washer-lock-cylinder-piaggio_PI298594
$1.36

Wire Tension Spring lock bolt/ignition lock
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/wire-tension-spring-lock-bolt-ignition-lock_PI298838
$1.25

Lock Bar PIAGGIO ignition lock
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/lock-bar-piaggio-ignition-lock_PI298903
$19.27

Bracket ignition key switch
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/bracket-ignition-key-switch_25393700
$1,60

Ignition Switch PIAGGIO
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/ignition-switch-piaggio_PI001338
$15.78

See exploded views for compatibility. Not sure if you need all of that stuff…
⚠️ Last edited by GermanGTSDriver on UTC; edited 1 time
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greasy125 wrote:
the ecu is damn near 800 with tax
Not sure about OP's VIN but found ECU for a little more than 200$ at SIP. See first link in post above.
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The likelihood is that you didn't realize what a pain in the ass the Vespa immobilzer system is. The shop gave you an estimate based on bringing in a bike that had been stolen, and needed to be gone through, probably a bit of electrical repair and some pieces of broken plastic. Once they realized you don't have the brown key, they couldn't go any further as far as repairs. So they told you that you would need to buy that, keys and tumblers.
There are cheaper ways to rekey your scooter, but a Vespa dealer is going to use brand new OEM parts. And they are not cheap.
Price is about typical for Southern California. Malcolm Smith is a very good dealership, and the reason people get great deals on theft recovery Vespas is that everyone in the business knows what it's going to cost if you do'nt have a brown key.

If you can get someone to run the VIN in the Piaggie system on lightspeed, or know a cop well enough, they should be able to pull up the previous owner's name and address. maybe more. With that, if you can contact the previous owner, they might still have both keys.
You don't need both keys to get the rest of the repairs done, but you need one. With either key, the dealership can put the bike back together and make sure it runs right. Without at least one key that's connected to your ECU, there's no way to start the bike and make sure everything works.
⚠️ Last edited by Motovista on UTC; edited 1 time
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Every dealer knows what it means when the keys are missing (especially the brown master key)! And that there is no key, the dealer notices at the latest when accepting the vehicle while writing the order...
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The immobilizer system is the one really bad thing about Vespas. And it is pretty much worthless. The scooter got stolen anyway. That, and the double maintenance on the HPE models is why I would never buy a new Vespa or even a used HPE model. I believe Vespa installed this ridiculous system just to make a lot of money from unfortunate owners who lost their keys. It's a shame everything has to be computerized these days.
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GermanGTSDriver wrote:
Every dealer knows what it means when the keys are missing (especially the brown master key)! And that there is no key, the dealer notices at the latest when accepting the vehicle while writing the order...
Your understanding of what the service writer does at big four dealerships in the US might be less than accurate.
Service writers who make the most for their dealership usually know very little about the ins and outs of how a vehicle operates. There is a very good chance that the service writer doesn't know much about the Vespa immobilizer system, or didn't check for this at the time the bike was checked in. They would have written that there's no key on the work order, wrote down everything the customer said, without making a diagnosis or offering an opinion as to what's wrong with the scooter or how much it's going to cost to fix it, and wheeled it in for a technician to look at and write a repair estimate. I would not be surprised if the $700 was to get someone to look at the bike, make an estimate and put the remaining balance towards any repairs up to a certain dollar amount, because anyone in the US who does theft repairs ends up with a lot of paperweights, bikes that the owner doesn't want to pay to fix. So the money they get up front is often the only money they will ever get from the customer.
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VintageScooterDude wrote:
The immobilizer system is the one really bad thing about Vespas. And it is pretty much worthless. The scooter got stolen anyway. That, and the double maintenance on the HPE models is why I would never buy a new Vespa or even a used HPE model. I believe Vespa installed this ridiculous system just to make a lot of money from unfortunate owners who lost their keys. It's a shame everything has to be computerized these days.
1. Please explain "double maintenance".

2. Immobilizer also existed before the HPE.

3. An immobilizer is necessary for insurance reasons (even if this is useless against carry away / pick-up), not because Piaggio wants to annoy customers.
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1. Double maintenance. Prior to the HPE models, the GT200, GTS250, and GTS300 required full maintenance, including belt and roller replacement and valve adjustments every 12,000 miles. Starting with the HPE models, that got changed to every 6,000 miles. And nobody has come up with any explanation for why they doubled the amount of maintenance on the HPE models.

2. Yes, Vespas have had an immobilizer for a long time. My 2006 GT200 has one. But I see no reason why. I have a total of seven bikes, five motorcycles, a Genuine Stella 2 stroke scooter, and the Vespa. The vespa is the ONLY one that has the immobilizer system. I am always worried about being stranded because of it. Would putting the keys in a washing machine damage them? I have accidentally put clothes in the washing machine with things left in pockets, including keys.

3. Insurance rates are pretty much the same on all of my bikes, they are not lower on the Vespa because of the immobilizer system. The insurance company probably doesn't even know about it.

So now there are 2 things on late model Vespas that can make Vespa a lot of money. First there was the immobilizer system, and now twice as much maintenance on the HPE models. Vespa makes wonderful scooters, way better than any of the Asian scooters I've had, but they don't need all these expensive things that serve no purpose. I wish there was some way to disable the immobilizer system on my scooter.
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Motovista wrote:
.... because anyone in the US who does theft repairs ends up with a lot of paperweights, bikes that the owner doesn't want to pay to fix.
this. so much this.

people that bring in recovered theft repair and crash damaged bikes they've bought cheap are the absolute worst offenders.
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The vin prefix. Is. TRUSC
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VintageScooterDude wrote:
Yes, Vespas have had an immobilizer for a long time. My 2006 GT200 has one. But I see no reason why.
when evaluating potential security measures, Piaggio probably takes into account the needs of someone who is parking their scooter on the sidewalk in Rome at night, and not their ownership base in Arizona. That's why it's called a pet carrier, and not a Gila Monster trap. On any given night, you will find scooters lined up on the sidewalk against apartment buildings in any Italian city. Many makes and models sold in the EU have an immobilizer system, not just Piaggio. About every third or fourth scooter will have a lock that goes from the body to the handlebar, or something like that. Here, nobody wants to use those locks because they don't want to lose one of their two pound bar weights. There, they don't want to lose what it's attached to.
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onecat1dude wrote:
The vin prefix. Is. TRUSC
that sounds like the license plate.

the VIN should be ZAPMD or ZAPDM or ZAPMA followed by a series of numbers 31xxx, 33xxx, 39xxx you get the picture.
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At the auto body shops I use to work at theft recoveries were losers, we'd punt whenever we could, unfortunately we had to take some for our biggest insurance partners, we charged a lot and never made much money on those jobs, discovery after discovery of problems.
Also most good mechanical and body shops will flat out refuse to work on (or blow out with sky high estimates) vehicles that have been deemed a total loss by the insurance companies and have titles stamped salvage by the DMV
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CaliforniaCruising wrote:
At the auto body shops I use to work at theft recoveries were losers, we'd punt whenever we could, unfortunately we had to take some for our biggest insurance partners, we charged a lot and never made much money on those jobs, discovery after discovery of problems.
Also most good mechanical and body shops will flat out refuse to work on (or blow out with sky high estimates) vehicles that have been deemed a total loss by the insurance companies and have titles stamped salvage by the DMV
Not as true here in my area of KY where labor rates are lower and historically salvage vehicles are a means to make a buck in an AB shop. It has and does get worse every year to overcome various obstacles to making a vehicle whole again. EV's the batteries alone kill a vehicle. Large urban AB shops it's mostly like you state though with avoidance of salvage. Those same shops sell used parts called "insurance takeoffs" in spite of their not wanting the actual repairs.

Motovista nailed the difference between here & a Euro scooter owners situ.

When I re-built salvage cars as a sideline, often the keys, owners manuals and GPS discs, etc. had been "pulled", AKA "stolen" from the vehicle by the tow driver, or at various points along the way of that vehicle as it made it's way the processes from stolen or wrecked to the auction point and yet another sale as parts or repair.
This thread tells me why I'll stick with my 2018 GTS300!
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znomit wrote:
Someone lost their car key and wandered into the dealer to get a new one and choked at the astronomical cost. So they asked the question "is this reasonable availability of spare parts?", and the disputes tribunal decided it was not reasonable for 33$ worth of parts to end up costing 500$.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/toyota-nz-to-pay-up-after-businessman-goes-to-tribunal-over-525-key/
I get a dead end on that link.
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If it makes the OP feel any better, I have this. I purchased a low mile 2016 Honda Fit a couple of years ago. It came with one key, no big deal I thought. Then, $340 dollars later, for 1 key, I now have a spare should I loose my original key.
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Posts: 7666
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
UTC quote
Ah, if only such behavior was frowned upon everywhere.
I'm all for profit, even a 'healthy' profit. But What The? emoticon
@crackedegg avatar
UTC

Enthusiast
2018 Vespa GTS300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 68
 
Enthusiast
@crackedegg avatar
2018 Vespa GTS300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 68
UTC quote
VintageScooterDude wrote:
I wish there was some way to disable the immobilizer system on my scooter.
Your wish can come true for a little over $200.

Malossi CDI for Vespa GT 200
https://scooterpartsco.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=170_180&products_id=820
"No more red and blue keys, no antenna, and no immobilizer to worry about. This CDI eliminates at least three ways to get stranded on your Vespa."
@keltis99 avatar
UTC

Enthusiast
GTS 300 super (US v.)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 79
Location: Brussels, Belgium
 
Enthusiast
@keltis99 avatar
GTS 300 super (US v.)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 79
Location: Brussels, Belgium
UTC quote
i think the main reason for the immobilizer upgrade was the numerous thefts especially in the UK and the ease by which the old IM systems got rigged. there were also rumours of a tracker install on the new scooters from the factory. not sure where that went.
@vintagescooterdude avatar
UTC

Hooked
2006 GT200 2009 Genuine Stella
Joined: UTC
Posts: 279
Location: Chandler, AZ
 
Hooked
@vintagescooterdude avatar
2006 GT200 2009 Genuine Stella
Joined: UTC
Posts: 279
Location: Chandler, AZ
UTC quote
CrackedEgg wrote:
Your wish can come true for a little over $200.

Malossi CDI for Vespa GT 200
https://scooterpartsco.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=170_180&products_id=820
"No more red and blue keys, no antenna, and no immobilizer to worry about. This CDI eliminates at least three ways to get stranded on your Vespa."
Thank you. It's a little expensive, but looks like exactly what I need. I have paid well over $200 for towing charges for bikes many times, mostly for motorcycles with flat tube type tires. But I have never trusted that immobilizer system. I've always been afraid of it failing.
@greasy125 avatar
UTC

Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: UTC
Posts: 15080
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
 
Sergeant at Arms
@greasy125 avatar
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: UTC
Posts: 15080
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
UTC quote
VintageScooterDude wrote:
Thank you. It's a little expensive, but looks like exactly what I need. I have paid well over $200 for towing charges for bikes many times, mostly for motorcycles with flat tube type tires. But I have never trusted that immobilizer system. I've always been afraid of it failing.
I'm trying to recall if I've ever seen one outright fail. chips (usually in the blue keys), and antennas I have. but I don't remember one just flat out giving up the ghost.

usually with GT200's it's the pickup on the stator that fails leaving you up the creek.

there are so many other things I'd be concerned about on a 200 well before even thinking about the CDI
@steelbytes avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2019 GTS300 HPE SuperTech 66,000km
Joined: UTC
Posts: 6797
Location: Batmania aka Melbourne, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@steelbytes avatar
2019 GTS300 HPE SuperTech 66,000km
Joined: UTC
Posts: 6797
Location: Batmania aka Melbourne, Australia
UTC quote
SteelBytes wrote:
My local Vespa key copy expert tried copying the blue for my HPE and failed. But he can do all previous models.
I was looking for something else last night and saw https://www.immo-tools.lt/ and they claim their tool can handle the miug4 in the hpe. so maybe it's now possible
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