Modern Vespa

Look at that! Way too organized for me 😆. I see your extended breather.

Yep! I like to have all the goodies clean and sorted before dealing with gasket goop, torque wrenches, and all the little bits. Makes the whole process efficient and smooth. I am this way with any and all things.

Got that extended breather when I ordered the JL pipe. TBH I'm not sure I'll use it unless truly necessary, but wanted to have it on hand, mostly just to see if its worth the moolalala. First impression, well made, but I'd make my own next time around.

The Past few days I've been working on port matching and fine tuning. There is still a bit of cleanup work to do, but it's 95% done. Not perfect, but not terrible. Here are all the things I've done and a bunch of photos.

For reference, I'll be running a 60mm stroke bell crank with 1.5mm head packer with the Malossi Sport kit. MRP reed intake, genuine yamaha rd350 reed block, MRP reed stuffer

Cases
- transfer ports matched to cylinder
- Inlet opened, matched & flowed
- crank housing clutch side lip chamfered, for less restricted fuel flow
- crank housing forward edge on both halves radiused and flowed
- fly side bearing oil hole opened just a fit, careful not to damage seal seat

Cylinder
- Boost port opened a bit, dividers knife edged
- transfer ports opened a bit, dividers knife edged
- exhaust port widened 1mm each side
- exhaust port raised 1mm, to achieve 187°/29°bd
- exhaust outlet opened up and matched to the exhaust manifold

Piston
- side transfer ports opened and flowed
- top boost ports knife edged and flowed toward cylinder

Intake
- matched and flowed to the case
- reed stuffer opening matched to carb mount
- reed stuffer divider knife edged and bottom flowed

More pics-

Even more pics---

Even more more pics-

WOW!

That is badass brother!

Calculated port timings with the Malossi Sport kit, 60mm stroke crank, 1.5mm head packer. I'll be using a Mazzy bell crank, which has been checked and trued; and the pin welded. The head is a custom machined one, designed to work best with an expansion chamber; made by Al Harpman @ Hot Rod Scooters.

Transfer: 129°
Exhaust: 187°, after raising 1mm
Blowdown: 29°

Those are all nice smooth transitions!

Nice.

Remind me what cylinder you went with?

Looks fast already. Those numbers, 60 crank and head 1.5mm, are more similar to an MHR kit. I see it has a 2 ring piston but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a sport kit.

Ignore me query about what jug...

I just saw the answer above.

Calculated port timings if this was run with a 57 crank. I'm calculating these for my specific head, which has a 0.9 depression. So Im shooting for -0.3 PBT. I also have a bit of room to play with on the bottom, as the cyl mating surface has been decked with some material removed. Basicly I can fine tune the squish from the bottom and top.

Malossi Sport kit with 57 stroke crank
Transfer: 45mm height = 125°
Exhaust: 32mm height = 183°
Blowdown: 29°

These are not the usual transfer numbers for a sport kit. They're more like MHR numbers.
https://www.scooter-center.com/en/cylinder-malossi-210-cc-sport-mk2-2021-vespa-p200-rally200-with-cylinder-head-m3118591
These numbers from SC are more the usual range. Wonder if you got delivered an MHR cylinder in that box.

Ok this is interesting indeed...and a bit of a curve ball. MHR usually comes with 1ring piston, and mine has 2. The box was factory sealed on arrival, but based on the SC posted port timings; it very well may be the MHR cyl. I double checked my order, and it was indeed for the Sport kit; not MHR. I guess I never went back and double checked the actual port timing numbers.

Does anyone have a sport &/or MHR kit to measure ports and give me some real world reference. I'm already moving forward, but it would be nice to know for sure what it is I'm working with.

*footnote: why is it so difficult to find actuall port timing & measurement specs for cyliinders? Is it just me or am I missing something....

DAY-um! This is getting serious. Wish I could help.

I keep checking in and learning stuff, but most of this is above my pay grade and getting moreso

I cleaned up the cases and mocked up the crank, cylinder, and piston. No base gasket to get a benchmark. With the 60mm stroke crank, the piston protrudes above top deck by 1.5mm. Maybe a hair more, but the base of the case has been decked, so that tracks.

So even whatever kit this actually is, it was made for 57. I know the Sport kit is only made for 57, and MHR says its available for both 57 & 60; but I can only find the 60mm version on SCK/SIP/ Malossi websites.

Again…what am I missing here.

My port timing calculations still stand, as I based them off the kit in hand; but I sure would like to know what this actually is. FFR.

Any tell tale visual differences on the various malossi kits? The number cast into my kit is #18592

Port map, with some initial notes & calculations; most of which can be ignored

These are my numbers for the sport.

Thats the same as what I have here with my kit. Which I believe to be the Sport as well.

Digging a bit deeper on the worldwideinterwebs, I can see two distinct visual cues between the MHR kit, and the Sport kit.

The MHR kit has the product number stamped into the upper face of the cylinder. #3118598. It shows the same on SIP/SCK websites.

The Sport kit has the product number cast into the lower clutch side of the cylinder. #18592. Neither SIP/SCK have clear photos of this side, but it can be barely seen in one photo.

My cylinder has the #18592 cast into the side, and no number stamped on top. So Sherlock says its likely the sport kit, regardless of what the SCK says in their description about timings.

This is why it feels frustrating to not have port measurements & port maps published by the manufacturers. Posted timings kinda mean little, considering there are so many variables to consider with strokes, con rods, base, packer, squish, etc.

I'd still like to see if anyone has a MHR kit on the shelf, and the accompanying port map and measurments. Real world data.

I'm not at home so can't check any stock. I hadn't noticed the MHR 210 had been discontinued but seems to be true. I would imagine it was during the re design in 2021. If it was 2016 I really have been sleeping on the job.
The original 210 Sport kit and 210 MHR had many small differences but one easy way to tell was the main transfers. Sport was 47mm and MHR was 45mm. The other way to tell the difference was the MHR had a great big MHR logo cast in the side and the Sport kit didn't.

If you're all measuring 45mm on Sport kits, I'd guess both kits got cancelled and all the good bits of the two kits were amalgamated into the new Sport kit.

The normal MHR is cancelled. It's only available for a 60mm stroke (longer barrel)...

https://www.malossistore.com/en/gr/aluminium-cylinder-kit-685-cvf2-pin-16-mhr-stroke-60-mm-for-vespa-cosa-px-e-2t-200-cc-vespa-px-e-200-2t-3118599-vepx200-M-P

I'll measure a new Sport kit I got yesterday with the new orange packing...

My measurements were quick and dirty, but definitely more like 45mm and not 47.

Some cylinders list port timings on their spec sheets and I never understood what they were for, whether:

These are the optimal timings on this kit and you should set it up for these timings.

OR

These are the base cylinder timings you would get if you just plunked it on the engine with a standard crank and no spacer.

I have seen a couple of charts from SiP that give general descriptions for popular kits of how different arrangements of spacers/shims would affect the power band. Beyond that, I have a general idea of what sort of timings work better for box exhaust vs pipe, tourer vs city racer, etc.

The Malossi kit looks well made, certainly nicer than the cast iron kits I have used in the past.

Sorry for my ramblings in your thread.

Measured two MKII Sport cylinders, one I had on the shelf (03/2021) and the new one (07/2023) I got yesterday (new Malossi packaging). Both are more or less the same and close to my MKI Sport (32.70mm / 45.60mm) I run on my blue P...

Thanks Jack, Orwell, and Safis for checking and providing more info. All very helpful!

My kit arrived in the Orange package, date stamped on cyl is 05/22. No MHR logo, main transfer height 45mm. So I'm confident it is a Sport kit.

This fmp video is 6 years old. The Sport kit wasn't 45mm transfers then. But I doubt it was that new. Most likely the 2016 kit.
This all points to the 2021 Sport kit being the discontinued 2016 57mm MHR cylinder with a 2 ring piston.

With all the Dremel work you've done, I get the feeling your intention is wanting something fast. With the port timing you now have, it has much potential.

This is an interesting fact to point out. Thanks for that. I geek out on the numbers and comparisons.

I am definitely aiming for fast. Better way to put it is that I'm aiming to optimize everything that is going into it.

This engine has always been my 'fast' engine, as I originally converted to reed & a kit waaay back in the year 2000. ( bonus points if you read that in Conan Obriens voice). It'll be nice to update it with new go fast goodies. Not too much longer now and it'll be on the road. If only it wasn't so cold my fingers freeze…might be a engine build in the living room type of situation.

Kitchen table

That would be a better indoor work bench

The thing about fast…Once you've had a little taste, it's hard to live without. When I had my first scooter in the 80's, I never considered trying to make it faster. But decades later, it's fairly easy to get big performance gains with plug and play setups. At first, it was scary going faster. But then you get used to it, your riding skills improve and you go a little faster.

Building my own Malossi 210 engine, I realized it was overkill in comparison to my original goals of having a reliable scooter that could do 55-60 mph all day long. Both my scooters can do that already. So there is no logical or practical need.

But I'll admit, I'm addicted to the coffee table engine builds, the smokey first starts and even juggling brass bits by the side of the road.

Little bit of progress on the build up. Bearings seated in the case halves, flywheel lapped to the crank, and all the necessary parts moved inside the house; cuz COLD. Little progress bit big steps as far as I'm concerned. Moving forward…slowly.

I'm using a FIS 9 ball clutch side crank bearing, Nadella fly side crank bearing. A standard selector bearing, and SKF sealed drive shaft bearing. I opened and re-greased the drive bearing; as the factory grease is minimal at best. Red high temp grease packed full, I'll also use an internal seal, as well as external seal for double assurance against grease in the brakes.

Awesome!
Also: you left the butter out.

lol! I sure did! Vintage Snowflake Garland Pyrex. Sometimes refered to as as the Boob-Garland pattern

Cases closed! All went smooth with no hiccups.

I'm using genuine Piaggio gaskets, Yamabond sealer, and did the FMP oil sucker trick; so hopefully that helps.
Also using Malossi FKM crank seals, and Corteco blue rear drive outer seal. The inner seal did not fit my cases, as the seal diameter is slightly too small or my cases too big, so I'll just run the outer seal with the sealed bearing; as I've done before.

DRT cyl studs, Piaggio case bolts, new zinc M7 nuts and washers. Primary was already rebuilt using DRT springs. Main drive is EFL CIF gears, piaggio shaft, BGM cruciform.

Apologies for being light on the photos, I was in a groove. Not a funk, but a funky groove.

Next up is setting the base gasket and squish. Then seal up the cylinder. Then leak down test. Then….all the rest

RIGHT ON BROTHER! Progress 😁👍👌

so awesome

As you found out, the inner axle seal only fits the EFL cases. It has a too small of an OD to fit tightly in the early P cases. Installing that sealed axle bearing is the winning ticket. Sometimes i'll install that bearing with the inner seal removed, just so that the balls will run in a constant oil bath. Other times i've kept both seals in place. Dunno if one way is much better than the other. Just as long as oil isn't weeping past the outer axle seal and onto the brake shoes is the goal.

Yep! Clearly I found out the hard way Like most of my life. NBD. I've done the same with the sealed bearing, sometimes inner seal removed, sometimes not. This time both seals are in place, with fresh hitemp red grease.

Congrats! Looking great and very inspiring
Can't wait for next steps