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Hooked
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Hi all I've got a problem with 2rd gear slipping. It doesn't do it a lot just every now and then. It can't be the shim because I took it to a scooter shop and he put the right shim on for me. Can't remember the gap with the shim but it was right. The guy does know what he is doing he builds turned engines. Everything is new inside my p200e engine apart from the output shaft witch is in good condition. It can't be the cruciform because It's new and a good one. Gear selector box and selector rod are the right ones. It was ok the first time I went out but it pulled abit when clutch was in so I done it up more and that problem stopped but then it started to slip in 2rd gear. I reset the gear cables but it's still doing it. Does the gear cables got to be tightening more then usual because of the new parts. I usually get my gear cables right without tightening the two nuts looking things where the cables goes in
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bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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The cables are for shifting. They don't hold it in gear.

Even though you say it can't be the cruciform because it's new and a good one, the symptoms point to the cruciform.
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I will open it up and check it
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When you say slipping…do you mean it's jumping out of gear and revving like it's neutral or like a loss of power?
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bodgemaster
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UTC quote
Before doing that, take the selector box cover of and get the rear wheel off the ground. Put the scoot in second gear, spin the rear wheel. Listen for clicking and see if the "batwing" is moving. One of the cables *might* be too tight.
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orwell84 wrote:
When you say slipping…do you mean it's jumping out of gear and revving like it's neutral or like a loss of power?
revs likes its neutral
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SoCalGuy wrote:
Before doing that, take the selector box cover of and get the rear wheel off the ground. Put the scoot in second gear, spin the rear wheel. Listen for clicking and see if the "batwing" is moving. One of the cables *might* be too tight.
I will give it a try. Batwing ?
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If I have to open it up I'm thinking about upgrading the output shaft. It is the old type so I might as well as it's open.
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If you are going to open up the cases, I recommend that you remove all the gears from the output shaft and shift through the gears to see if the cruciform lines up with the wear marks left by the gears for each gear selection. You may find that second gear doesn't line up the cruciform with the wear marks very well. Second gear is next to neutral! There are shims you can install between the selector box and the engine case. This may help get you closer if you find that the cruciform doesn't align well with the wear marks. Also make sure there isn't an M-7 washer sandwiched between the selector box and engine case.

Hec
Shims for gear selector
Shims for gear selector
Cruciform end in yellow in Second gear
Cruciform end in yellow in Second gear
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Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
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UTC quote
Slipping or popping out of gear?. Slipping would be strictly a clutch issue. Popping out of gear it could be a worn out cruciform and/or improperly adjusted shifting cables.
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1980 P200e 2003 Stella
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The P200e I bought a month or 2 back, was popping in and out of 3rd. At first, I thought it was happening just under load, or when cold. But then I found it was even light throttle, 30-35mph. Previous owner didn't know of any issue. I had been meaning to look at the cable adjustments and pull the selector box off just to have a look. Had watched a video talking about making sure the pin holding the arm to the batwing shaft was properly set/wedged into the arm/shaft, and thought I should check mine out.

Was on my way home for lunch one day, when I pulled up to the stoplight and it sort of felt funny, but couldn't put my finger on it. Until I started to let the clutch out with the neutral light on. And it moved. In neutral. And it wouldn't really shift into any gear. But it was in gear, LOL. In neutral. Rode it the rest of the way home in I think 3rd gear??? Figured one of the cables broke, but upon inspection, they were still intact. Hoping it wasn't something internal broken, I pulled the selector box off and that pin fell into my catch pan. The selector arm was no longer pinned to the batwing shaft.

I put the pin back into the arm and shaft and tapped it like the video had shown. Cleaned and lubed the detent arm and adjusted the cables. Been back together for several weeks now with a tank of gas ran through it, and it hasn't popped out of gear once.

I had been thinking, well, maybe it's a clutch issue. But I was also thinking a clutch issue would be a soft slip in and out, and not like a light switch being turned on and off quickly. waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaWHAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaWHAaaaaaaaaaa.....
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Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
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UTC quote
shepys wrote:
revs likes its neutral
Only in second seems odd, however slipping like in nuetral is more a clutch issue.
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Hooked
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UTC quote
Christopher_55934 wrote:
Only in second seems odd, however slipping like in nuetral is more a clutch issue.
The cruciform passes through neutral from 1st to 2nd. If the cruciform is barely engaging 2nd gear I would think it could slip back into neutral especially if the gear float is out of spec. See pic I posted a couple posts back. Maybe second gear has rounded lands where the cruciform engages the gear. I'm skeptical that it's the clutch since it only happens in 2nd gear.

Hec
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Yes I had a good look at that post photos. Wish I known that before I put it all together. Very handy to know. Me thinking because of new gears it be all standard I didn't need to check that out but i will from now on. As for the clutch it's out it was abit dry so it's all in oil now soaking till tomorrow. All seems good nothing is stick to the basket. I've been thinking to pop my t5 clutch out and try it as I know it's ok because I've only just change the engine round last week. As for the selector box shims what's in the photo could I try them before splitting the engine.
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Just looked it up I can't use the T5
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Hooked
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shepys wrote:
Yes I had a good look at that post photos. Wish I known that before I put it all together. Very handy to know. Me thinking because of new gears it be all standard I didn't need to check that out but i will from now on. As for the clutch it's out it was abit dry so it's all in oil now soaking till tomorrow. All seems good nothing is stick to the basket. I've been thinking to pop my t5 clutch out and try it as I know it's ok because I've only just change the engine round last week. As for the selector box shims what's in the photo could I try them before splitting the engine.
I went through this procedure in my 1980 P125X Restoration Modification Post.

1980 P125X Restoration Modification Project (Page 4) Towards the bottom of the page.

It shows how the cruciform lines up with each gear selected. Take note of Neutral and second gear positions. I hope it helps you.

Adding a shim should move the cruciform towards first gear by thickness of the shim. I believe the cruciform would be adjusted in the wrong direction if your cruciform isn't centering on second gear and slipping into neutral. It would pull the cruciform away from second gear towards Neutral. If you add the shim and the problem gets worse then that would indicate the cruciform definitely isn't centering on second gear.

Hec
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parallelogramerist
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shepys wrote:
Just looked it up I can't use the T5
I've experimented with installing a T5 clutch in my P200 a while back. All it did was make for some incredibly lousy acceleration. I removed it a couple hours later.
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One more thought. Nerd emoticon


Could the engine builder have installed the gear stack shim on the wrong end of the output shaft? Is that even possible? This would take the gear stack out of alignment with the cruciform positions. This would move all gears away from the gear selector box.


Hec
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I installed the old drive shaft and the shims go on one end on the old types. The shim gap is right I took it with me when I got new shim and he put it on for me with the proper feeler gauges. I'm getting them feeler gauges they are better then the normal ones.
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shepys wrote:
I will give it a try. Batwing ?
The batwing is the notched lever positioner on top of the selector box. Looks kind of like a bat's wing.

I know you say you have the correct box, but you may as well confirm the correct lever throw after doing SoCal's test by putting the batwing into 3rd and confirming that the top of the actuator pivot protrudes 1.5+mm above the face of the box.
A box for EFL/Lusso/Iris will be flush.

You won't be able to shim the box out of trouble if you're slipping out of 2nd into neutral
Good luck!
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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My first time adjusting cables, I overtightened one of the cables enough that it was hard to get into first and sloppy between neutral and second. Took me awhile to figure it out.
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2rd? Is that before or after 3th? What about 1nd and 4st?
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I found out about the two types of selector boxes not long ago. I had two but they was for the later ones so I got the right one.
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It only does it in 2rd. It will go from 2rd to 3rd then back into 2rd
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Ray8 wrote:
The batwing is the notched lever positioner on top of the selector box. Looks kind of like a bat's wing.

I know you say you have the correct box, but you may as well confirm the correct lever throw after doing SoCal's test by putting the batwing into 3rd and confirming that the top of the actuator pivot protrudes 1.5+mm above the face of the box.
A box for EFL/Lusso/Iris will be flush.

You won't be able to shim the box out of trouble if you're slipping out of 2nd into neutral
Good luck!
OP
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I have had the clutch out and apart check everything and all is ok there and today I removed the selector box and I didn't find any problems so it's not the clutch or the selector box.
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The cruciform doesn't look good.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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Shaft and gears
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Gears look ok
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Other side
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multiple gear Looks ok
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So hopefully the problem is the cruciform.
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shepys wrote:
So hopefully the problem is the cruciform.
You mentioned in your first post the cruciform was new. How many miles do have on it? It's hard to tell the gear condition from the pictures posted. The key is to inspect all four gear lands for each gear. They should not have any nicks or cracks. Preferably the edges are nice and straight and the corners not rounded off. Here is a pic of what I'm trying to describe. Definitely do the cruciform alignment test. Did you verify the selector shaft was threaded into the flat side of the cruciform? This is the side shown in your first picture. The letters BGM is shown on this side. By the way, I have been told that Piaggio cruciforms are the way to go.

Hec
Inpect the lands for each gear
Inpect the lands for each gear
Piaggio P125X cruciform after 5,400 miles for reference.  Flat side that threads onto selector rod.
Piaggio P125X cruciform after 5,400 miles for reference. Flat side that threads onto selector rod.
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The cruciform was in right. I did do a couple of short test rides when messing around and finding out I had the wrong selector box and rod in. A mate grave me the shaft and gears all setup. He said the shim gap was ok but I found out it wasn't. I think all that worn the cruciform out. I should have check it when I took the shaft and gears to be shim right. I will check if the cruciform match up with the worn marks tomorrow but I think it will be ok now after installing the new cruciform.
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Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
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shepys wrote:
The cruciform was in right. I did do a couple of short test rides when messing around and finding out I had the wrong selector box and rod in. A mate grave me the shaft and gears all setup. He said the shim gap was ok but I found out it wasn't. I think all that worn the cruciform out. I should have check it when I took the shaft and gears to be shim right. I will check if the cruciform match up with the worn marks tomorrow but I think it will be ok now after installing the new cruciform.
Cruciform and gears are not bad enough to be jumping gear.

You said the driveshaft is old PX, Cruciform is old PX and gear selector is old PX. The selector rod and cruciform washer must also be old PX or it will jump gear.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/washer-selector-rod_87600000
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/gear-selector-rod-cif_87030000

Worth checking.
OP
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Hooked
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It's a p200e. The drive shaft is out of a p200e. cruciform for old gear box is a bmg pro. I'm going to replace it with a piaggio one. The selector box and rod are for the old gear box. Hopefully the problem was my cruciform. I did do small test ride with the wrong selector rod in. And the shim gap was too big. I think that's why the new cruciform was no good. Lucky it didn't damage the gear cogs
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Hooked
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UTC quote
shepys wrote:
It's a p200e. The drive shaft is out of a p200e. cruciform for old gear box is a bmg pro. I'm going to replace it with a piaggio one. The selector box and rod are for the old gear box. Hopefully the problem was my cruciform. I did do small test ride with the wrong selector rod in. And the shim gap was too big. I think that's why the new cruciform was no good. Lucky it didn't damage the gear cogs
If you have a mismatch of parts the Cruciform position test will confirm what is right or wrong with your set up. Keep us posted. Popcorn emoticon

Hec
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Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
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Jet Eye Master
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UTC quote
shepys wrote:
It's a p200e. The drive shaft is out of a p200e. cruciform for old gear box is a bmg pro. I'm going to replace it with a piaggio one. The selector box and rod are for the old gear box. Hopefully the problem was my cruciform. I did do small test ride with the wrong selector rod in. And the shim gap was too big. I think that's why the new cruciform was no good. Lucky it didn't damage the gear cogs
What about the washer. Is it fitted?
OP
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Hooked
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It was yes
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Hooked
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UTC quote
I split the engine 2 days an and found it was the cruciform so I have replaced it with a piaggio one and today I went on a 40 minute ride with no problems. It's fix. Thanks guys.
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