Modern Vespa

I was donated a US 1980 P200E with 13k+ miles on the odometer, and have started planning out what to do to it. It currently starts, runs, and shifts but has been sitting in the desert sun for about two decades and needs a bit of everything mechanical and cosmetic rebuilt.

Already registered with a clean CA title so the body and motor casing are sticking together, and the tentative plan is to use it for my 15 minute commute to work.

I figure the 24/24 carb and Sito+ muffler are a given for low-hanging and good value upgrades, but I'd like some input on a cylinder replacement/upgrade:

Currently getting 110 psi on the pressure gauge both hot and cold, and quite the smoke cloud at WOT (though that might be the old oil I've been using, Motul 510 is on order). My understanding is that compression is low but workable. I took some photos through the spark plug hole and there appears to be some scouring above the exhaust port but the rest of the cylinder seems fine.

Would it be advantageous to rebuild the rest of the engine and deal with that seemingly damaged cylinder later/when it becomes a problem, buy a like-for-like replacement, or at that point go for a Malossi 210 kit or similar?

Raw cost difference is meh, and the additional ~5-6 hp on the dyno from the Malossi seems like a good value to me. I'm fairly inexperienced with 2-stroke motors, but have a few hundred hours rebuilding and fiddling with carbureted car engines so I think this would be "easy" for me.

Any thoughts/opinions would be much appreciated, and if there's anything else I should check while everything is running.

Welcome to MV pi.

If it were mine, I'd:

Clean the tank and drop in a fast flow fuel tap.
24/24 carb and performance box exhaust
New tires and tubes
Pull the engine and put in new seals, shift cross, bearings and kit of your choice, Malossi being at the top of my list

Now for a bit extra I'd put in a 60mm crank while it's open.

Flow the carb, carb box, and inlet while the engine is open and apart.
I'd also put a new set of cables on it and grease the steering bearings but that's after the basics.

Got any pictures? Everyone here loves pictures

Since this is probably your first two stroke shifting vespa, I'd keep it real simple-

Pull the cylinder and get some muriatic pool acid with q tips and wipe away all the aluminum left on the cylinder wall. Neutralize it with baking soda/water when it's all gone. Rinse, dry and oil the cylinder. Reinstall it, torque and run it stock.

24/24 with a Sip Road 3.0 exhaust is a given. Replace the tires and tubes with new. New battery if needed. If needed, swap the shocks to a new middle of the road brand.

Stock up on spare cables and tools and ride it like that for the summer. If you still need more oomph, then buy a cylinder kit and dive into an engine rebuild.

Scooterspeed in Azusa or Scooterwest in San Diego have everything you need.

Thanks for the input qa, that's around what I was thinking; seems like a reasonable path for the long term. I like the idea on getting the aluminum off the cylinder walls too, that didn't cross my mind at all.

I'm seeing prices for 24/24 "Spaco" carbs ranging from ~$40 on eBay to $120 from ScooterWest et. al., I assume the cheaper ones have some kind of shortcoming? I've used Sherryberg Chinese carbs and distributors a number of times and don't have complaints on quality and function, though I know every motoring subculture has particular problem components.

I'm curious about the 60mm crank, seems maybe more exotic than I'm going for? Unsure if autoignition pinging is actually an issue on these scoots, I usually only get 91 Octane at Costco (vs 92-93 that some places have). Then again, I've spent much more for much smaller power gains on little 4-pot engines. Will need to experience the engine disassembly process and see if I'm willing to do that again in a few years. I currently have larger projects to fry, as someone might barely identify from that rusty red frame, but a reliable-ish 50 mpg commuting vehicle would be nice in the interim.

As for the scoot itself, I'm very happy to have the original sale paperwork; the buyer got *all* the options the dealer would sell them. As much brightwork as would fit, two alarm systems, CHT gauge, a branded legshield cover (scooter bra?), the King & Queen seat, windshield, etc. etc. Around $2400 total in 1982...which was decent used car territory. Originally sold in San Diego then went to the 2nd owner in Az, and a 3rd owner who bought it in largely the condition I got it. There's a pretty lazy paint job from silver to teal, though I like the color. Will probably go with the un-faded version of the teal eventually, but cosmetic repairs are a few years out (the front wheel fender is getting a wire wheel and rattlecan cover up).

Choice!

The tubes and tyres (and possibly rims - rust inside) will be dodgy, mate. Anything rubber possibly is. Are those rubber mats on the floor?. If so, lift them off (bin them) and check for rust. Also look for rust under the bike (rust on frame behind the mudguard / under the floor at the bottom of the fork tube is common) and inside (and underneath) the petrol tank.

Other important rubber bits are the rear shock mount (top of rear shock to frame is usually toast) and the rubber on the engine mounts (where the big bolt goes through the "swingarm" on the motor). These are consumable parts like brake shoes.

Easy enough to knock these off and make sure it's safe to ride....

Good on ya

I think I'm going to pick up ScooterWest's complete rubber kit or similar, I always go through and replace all the bushes when I get a new vehicle, it cleans up like 70% of the squeaks and rattles. New tyres and tubes are on the way, though I hadn't thought to check for rusty rims. Good bit of surface rust under the mats (which disintegrated as I pulled them up), but the trusty stabby screwdriver technique has me confident in the integrity of everything there.

In this case, the engine has a noticeable lean from a worn out mounting bush so I'm considering that mandatory before getting any real miles.

No cylinder kits until you have blow up at least 3 stock top ends first. After that THEN you can graduate to a higher horsepower cylinder that will most likely blow up on you as well...

on the motor KISS

bearings, seals, gaskets. gears gears as needed. general soft parts rebuild. pull the top end down, get rid of the alum. schmear, maybe give it a hone and some rings you're feeling frisky, dress the piston and ship it.

if you have a 24 on there now, just rebuild it. if it's a 20, honestly, it'll be fine to about 55mph. but if you must upgrade see if you can find a decent used to rebuild.

while it's out do the motor mounts and the rear shock mount.

looking at how baked that bad boy is, you might be turning your attention to the wiring harness with the swiftness.

plan on fresh cables. shocks are pretty much a given.

do all the usual fluff and fold stuff mentioned above-- tires, tubes, fuel system rebuild. upgrading for better and safer parts along the way if you desire or if the pocket book allows.

then ride on it for a year before you decide to hot rod the motor or take the whole thing apart to "restore" it.

btw, you might wanna put a seat on your shopping list. or maybe like 1/2 a Mexican blanket!

he might be able to get away with having the cylinder bored to 2nd or 3rd over. I do them here for $65.00. .. but expect more in California for sure.

Otherwise, it's such a rabbit hole to go down with a full, quality rebuild.. . plus a Malossi 210. . plus a VMC Molle clutch.. . plus. . . .

i just fully built a p200e with a freshly bored 3rd over piston. it has the 20mm carb and honestly feels pretty good. maybe that is because everything is so fresh. $3500 if anyone is looking, turn-key.

Give us more information on your commute. Is it stop light to stop light, with a 30 mph speed limit? 55 mph on a county road? 40 mph through town? 60 mph on a highway?

If your like me I really didn't understand a two stroke motor needs to be air tight at first. The piston area of the motor is sealed separately from gear side. There are rubber seals on both ends of crankshaft to keep fuel and oil in and air out. There is also a seal between motors halves. Any of those leak and motor sucks in raw air, with no mixed fuel or oil and it runs lean.

A Malossi Sport cylinder as other have mentioned is a good cylinder. You can also clean up what you have for now just to try it out.

There are better bolt on mufflers than a Sito+, really depends on your use. SIP makes mufflers.

Advice Polini Box - Not getting same top end MPH


As others have mentioned and you know dessert heat dries out all consumable rubber parts. Good idea to start replacing them.

^^^^This!!! Don't do anything to your engine until you can confirm, with a gauge, over time, air tightness. Otherwise, you are throwing time, effort and money at gremlin chasing. Honestly, anytime I break the pressure boundary, other than changing plugs, I put the test rig on it. I have been wrenching on Vespa for a year and a half now and as a beginner, I believe that is the most important lesson I have learned. My $0.02 worth.

I'll be quiet honest with you. Receiving a P200E for free is fantastic no matter how you look at it, even if the P200E is not working you still have tons of high sought after parts but looking at the condition of your P200E (very rough in my opinion) you have two feasible options: 1) spend the minimum money just to get it running or 2) spend a lot to fix everything and by the time you are done you would have spend more than a decently running and maintained P200E.

I would just start with the basic stuff and get the engine running. Is is actually running at all? you said it cranks up 110psi on cold or hot. By hot do you mean actually running?

I personally would get it running on a budget first and from that point would work my way out. The scooter that you got appears to need plenty of maintenance. If you decide to go with used parts I think that I have stuff laying around(P200 cylinders, seats, exhaust and other stuff).

If you decide to go with the cylinder kit I recommend Malossi 210 also, I ran two and they are proven, you can still find them for $400 which is a remarkable value for the performance that it offers.

That seat would need at least a seat cover or re-upholstering but you can also find a used one. The fast flow fuel is a good idea as someone suggested. It looks like you have a big project ahead.

I'm using your post for the quote as it hits almost all the points there:

Commute ranges from 40-45mph flat out all the way, or a stop-and-go on the same road. Depends on how the lights are behaving.

I had not considered that with the 2-stroke paradigm (just adjust the carb richer to compensate, right? ), but any internal seals are almost certainly shot or will be soon.

The stock muffler is rusted through, and I sawed it up in the process of removing the cylinder anyway. I see there's a lot of competition in the box muffler space; I'm leaning towards the SIP 2.0, mainly for ground clearance. The new-ish Malossi box is interesting, though I'm unsure how that would pair with an otherwise mostly stock setup.

Anyway, current plan: Buy the most recent revision of the Malossi 210 kit, and use that as a guide to port the engine while rebuilding it. I'm seeing a lot carbon soot contamination in the transmission and crankcase, so might as well do a full rebuild on the engine. Stick with the stock cylinder, head, and crank, and run those with the ported casing until something dies. Slap on the Malossi kit and do any other tweaks (carb, another muffler if needed, etc)

I think that gives me the most flexibility and provides a good value - the Malossi kit can go on later without much work, or just sold as new-open box. I have a history of sitting on my hands until I need a pricey part, and end up paying for some "market adjustment" too

Fluid dynamics tells me that a ported casing with an unported cylinder and piston isn't great, but I imagine not particularly noticeable.

As far as overarching project goes, I'm not particularly concerned with total cost (getting the scoot for free helps), and I honestly prefer to do my own work rather than continuing to drive a good running vehicle. The number of "rebuilt" Triumph engines I've opened up and found backwards thrust washers in...

By day I'm a mechanical engineer so it's kind of fun to see how some of these problems were solved anyway. I generally set my limit for parts using the current selling price (hobby labor is free), which is about $3-4k in my area if the two that just sold on Craigslist went for asking. I think everything looks worse than it is, though that may be me coming from British rust buckets.

mannn... that looks pretty rough.

I'd clean it and the barrel up and reassess.

for your riding needs, a well tuned bone stock bike with some tasteful upgrades will be more than sufficient. personally, I'd forgo a malossi kit and throw that dough at other items.

you're kind of in a pickle here. you're probably going to need a top end. and as such you'll want to match your crank to that. but you don't necessarily have to go that route, it's just that it all works so much better if you do. for example, for the malossi you want a 60mm crank but it will work with the stock 57mm crank. conversely the stock 57 with a stock barrel is fine, but with a 60mm crank it can work better, you just have to do a little more set up.

then there's the top end. a stock top end is gonna run you about 200 bones no matter how you slice it-- off the shelf, or on a next over, vs a malossi is 400 give or take. or maybe you source a take off or used aftermarket kit for a bit less.

so it comes down to how, where and when you want to spend. build a bomb proof bottom end with an eye toward future upgrades or knock it together stock with the understanding that if you want to go hotrod down the line you'll be spending that money then.

personally, given the intended usage, I'd stay stock-ish. if the crank is fine, re use that. if the top end can be cleaned up do so and run it. that's easily changed later.

a well tuned stock 200 with a 20/20 and a cosa clutch and a SIP2 would be a more than capable commuter and easily hit that 45mph and cruise comfortable at 55

I'm considering it not great not terrible, found a stuck ring so fixing that might bump up the compression a bit more. Ultrasonic cleaner should make quick work of everything, the head looks brand-new already.

$200 to replace like-for-like feels meh to me, that's shaping a bit of everything for my decision process, makes the Malossi feel like it only costs $200. I'd like to have a plan ready to go when the current cylinder dies my by hand or its own regardless. Anybody have a stock matched piston and cylinder from when they did a cylinder upgrade?

I've done a similar thing on a few Spitfire engines, rebuilding the bottom end nicely then sort of cobbling together the head and reusing a slightly sketchy cam, as replacing those is only a 3-hour job. Get 20k or so miles out of my shadetree valve job, then drop 1k in machine work and parts to get another 7hp (out of 80 total...)

Quite a pickle indeed; I have a feeling the 60mm stroke crank would cause that cylinder to die quicker, but I plan on that happening anyway. Maybe that decision will be made for me if the stock one is shot. Seems like I should just get on cracking the engine open and find out.

The older cylinder castings were nicer than the ones you can get now. So, you should send me that one and get a kit.

Or you could get an oversized Grand-Sport piston and have it bored.

I mean, this is not an unreasonable argument... (even the sending you the older castings)

I think that you're on it-- not great, but not terrible. run it till it pukes and then make a choice.

opening up the motor might present a whole *other* host of considerations once you tear down and inspect everything. crank is waxed, gears trashed, rotary is meh. you never know.

the 200 on the like for like is kind of a misnomer. sort of. I mean, it's the cost of doing business. but a fresh top end that's properly set up can be a real eye opener.

also, a malossi isn't a fair comparison. it's rides totally different and needs a whole host of peripheral items to make it really shine.

a well prepped and massaged "stock" P2 will stomp balls on a bad malossi set up in nearly every aspect of riding with the exception of all out top speed.

no doubt. It's not just a cylinder kit, but the other items that is needed as well and can lead to and extensive bill.

For the first time owner, i suggest having the cylinder bored and using a GS piston, update the clutch plates, update your brake shoes, and RIDE your bike.

+1
Get it running and riding as cheaply as possible. Then decide.

With the cylinder off, you will be able to see the worst of it. Angle the engine back and fill the crankcase with petrol. If it holds this level and the crank is not rusty, there's no need to split it just now. Once riding the gearbox might be shot but that's for later. Also possible it was last running without autolube/2 stroke oil.

Some things to consider: How soon do you want to get it on the road? Next consideration is how much time to you have to spend on it. Budget seems to be less of a consideration for you which is always helpful.

Doing the basics to get it running is fine if you are just taking it for ice cream. This approach hasn't worked very well for me as it results in more time and work in the long run and doing the same work many times over. I would rebuild the engine, pressure test and get a reliable close to stock engine going. The GS piston is a good upgrade. Ultimately, it will be reliability and not top speed that will make it a solid commuter. In some ways it's a more demanding application than building something that will tear it up on the way to the 7-11.

I have one rideable bike and one that is a nuts and bolts restoration. The restoration is much more enjoyable because I already have something to ride.

For me, the parts for an engine rebuild and a decent kit start to get into real money, so blowing up an expensive kit would be quite a setback for me. This might be less of a consideration for you, so take my comments with a grain of salt.

I dropped the engine and discovered most of the insulation on the wiring is closer to a powder than anything else, which tells me the seals are absolutely suspect. Rotary valve clearances are mint, right on 0.05mm, so I'll be sticking with the stock crank for the foreseeable future.

I understand doing wiring and running new cable liners on these are a bear? Looks like I'll be in for it anyway so probably going to buy Scooter Mercato's ready made harness and teflon lined cable set.

Along with that is shocks, fuel tap, many of the plastic bits for the oil tank (which is severely cracking, heat?), rims (one of mine is rusted out from inside), and some other mechanical odds and ends to add to after splitting the engine and evaluating that.

I have the original Ducati blackbox ignition, which seems to be splitting from its potting. Should I be worried about this and replace the whole thing? And if not, is the spark plug wire replaceable? I see the blue ones are sold without it installed.

The harness is definitely the hardest thing to replace. Get a friend when you're ready to tackle that! The secret for cables and harness is to pull a fish tape/picture hanging wire/ weed eater cord etc etc with the old stuff when you remove it. Then use that fish tape to pull the new stuff back in. Slow and steady around the curves with two people!!

When in doubt, replace it now! Cheap insurance since it's open and accessible.

I wouldn't worry about the ignition box. They're pretty robust and work with that ground wire removed. Again, if in doubt, replace it and move on.

If you're lazy like me, wait until you're ready to rebuild and pressure wash the motor with plain water as is. That gets the gunk off quickly and then I can disassemble/ toss/ dry, before anything starts rusting. Or you can use a lot of toothbrushes and foaming engine degreaser and get the same results.

Yes, the pressure washer I bought last summer is paying dividends. All the exterior gunk is soaking in degreaser now to keep the mess down before disassembly.

Out of curiosity if anybody is familiar: How terrible are those $100 cylinder kits out of India? Like this for example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/275525340197

I have some hobbies where the sketchy Indian manufacturing is pretty well regarded (even resold on US sites) and others where it's like "the piston doesn't fit in the liner, and the same people made both".
That might be a more palatable option to keep around as spare parts rather than going down the performance mod route.

From what I've seen on here guaranteed to be out of specifications or your money back.

i have no idea if the cylinder kit is decent, and FAIK, it could be the same cylinder kit that most shops sell new.

My 2 cents FWIW, drop your cylinder off with a competent scooter shop and have them bore your cylinder using a Meteor piston or Grand-sport piston. You get to keep your Italian made cylinder and the local shop is happy to earn your money.

Aaaaand the Malossi 210 kit just went up $44

We're buying the $85 cylinder and piston from India out of morbid curiosity, I'll have the machine shop take some numbers.

Damnit - I hate it when that happens!