Modern Vespa

Missed this comment.... Yeah, tend to agree. In my limited experience metal to metal wear has a harder end-feel, more like a "clank" than a "smoosh".

So, figured our that I can check the oil pump without pulling the timing chain cover with seems like a PITA, requiring special tools, etc. A few bolts and done. Still have to check for wear, but thought I'd share a pic with you all in appreciation of your patience.

BTW, a question. The oil pan had a nice coating of black sludge. I'm guessing with the mileage on this that's pretty normal?


'At's an oil pump.

Residue

At least there aren't any sparkly chunks visible.
For the *bottom* of a sump I don't picture that as bad.
Bit more than I'd expect, but not bad.
On the bright side, that's just junk that never made it into the oil filter....

Just for fun, what motor oil have you been using?

Try a magnet, residue looks pasty, there's probably metal in it…

Sludge isn't uncommon.

Having access to it and not removing it is.

Thought about that...then cleaned it up.
Went back to look at something else...realized I'd just set it aside and cleaned up the bottom of the engine. Not sure how to tell....the sludge sticks to the magnet, but so does oil. It wipes around kind of like...mud. Not much help, IMO unless there are tricks. Feels smooth between the fingers.

Considering the amount of recent cam wear, it wouldn't be surprising.

Last edited by fledermaus on Mon, 17 Jul 2023 01:40:13 +0000; edited 1 time

We're not going there. It's the good stuff.

Okay, bit of a confession. I never saw need to remove the transmission components(variator, belt, clutch) as I was able to remove everything I needed to without touching it.

Are there any problems with that? I couldn't see any myself, but then again assuming is just another way to mess something up.

I have to remove the screws on the oil pump and check wear/clearances there, and from that point on it's all about putting the puzzle back together...and finding out if my bits management system was as effective as I felt it was going to be.

Sigh. Another speed bump. I have the oil pump in hand and assuming I'm reading correctly it needs further disassembly to check for wear. There are two phillips headed screws that need to come out, but they're tight! My phillips-headed drivers don't seem to fit all that well and I suspect I'm close to stripping if I forge ahead. Anybody with experience here? Is this a case for a JIS driver?

Well, got frustrated, and came back and tried harder....my gut sense was right...now one of the heads is pretty much stripped. Now it's a toss-up on gambling on reinstalling it, or spending the $$ for a new one, or getting dirty and trying to disassemble more, er, aggressively......

You need a bit that fits tightly (as I hope you have always used), a hand-held impact driver, and a means of holding that part securely while you hit that driver.

Time to go tool shopping then. Assumed I'd need one some day.....

Seriously, a hand-held impact driver is the unsung hero of many a Hail-Mary repair job. My problem is that when a need one RIGHT NOW! I can never find one. So I go and whizz down the road to buy another (they are not expensive). I now have three in the UK and two here in the US....

jimc, you're da man!

Found a driver yesterday, and waiting for my wife to wake up decided to head into the shop to play with it. Cut an inch or so hole in a piece of wood to set the pump on, chose the right bit, whacked the head a couple of times, and voila! it was loose. Funny thing, I imagined screws, but actually a threaded bolt came out. Anyway, had started with the good one, thought I was screwed with the partially stripped on, but a half dozen more whacks and that one came out as well. I'd thought I was in deep do-do.

So, thanks, and a deep bow to a master. Now I can proceed and if all is in order start on the upswing side of this adventure!

Yeah, I've worked on a few old crappy vehicles an impact driver changed my life.

I'm fond of JIS screwdrivers by Vessel (made in Japan) Their "Impacta" line has a cam inside the handle that turns 12deg upon impact. They are my go-to screwdrivers now.

There are few JIS screws around outside of Japanese manufactured items - and Philips (and other 4-point) drivers are liable to strip them. So well-worth having a set if you have any Japanese equipment - a Goldwing perhaps?

In the EU there are few Philips screws - they are mostly Pozidriv. In the US it seems to be mostly Philips - but there's always a few surprises!

I have sets of 1/4 hex drive bits to cover all three types.

Okay, with screws out, I can split the pump. Instructions are to remove the clip, but without a special tool (I suppose), it's not gone well. I canremove the lobes piece to inspect there, but frankly I'm kinda lost. Manual wants me to stick in a feeler gauge, but not sure where or how on curved surfaces. Inspection is relatively easy...but other than some scuffing can't say it looks particularly worn, but what do I know?

I'm not sure if there's any advantage to further disassembly...or ideas on getting the spring clip off....


Filleted

Insides. Kinda like surgery

looks like a pair of horseshoe lock ring pliers should get that out.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00209ETSS/

I love these, but there's far less expensive options out there if you're only using them on a "very seldom" basis.

Thanks! Thought there had to be a tool....

Still 2 things to consider: One, I think the only reason to go further is a look around...if the pump is trashed, will further disassembly show anything unique? Two, that pliers costs over a third of a new pump! Not complaining about the impact driver as I expect it to come in handy at some point of the future, but I'd be two-thirds the way to a new pump!

Edit: Didn't read the rest of your comment....but still...

Seems like the adventure never ends.

honestly i'd say if you don't do lots of work requiring them, probably better to just get a fresh pump if you're unsure and budget allows.

yes, the one you have may be okay. a new one *WILL* be okay....for a long time to come.

i know if i were that deep i'd just say f it and grab a new one, but i definitely understand everyone's situation is different.

i'd even be willing to send you my pair of those pliers as long as you promise to send em back (maybe with some curds or jerky from the baraboo meat market as the rental fee ) if it'll help you investigate a lil further before committing.


as a midwest boy who used to work at Noah's Ark in the Dells, us cheeseheads stick together.

You can rotate the clip to the flat and use regular snap ring pliers, cheap ones. File or grind some flats on the pliers and grab the pin holding the pliers parallel to the housing face. You really don't need to do this, the pump is showing signs of cavitation, wear, and some metal ingestion. Replace the pump.

maaaan i was about to get some curds!

I'd go for the pliers deal, but I'm getting weary of the time it's taken to get this far...and once I figure out what to do I have to wait to get parts, so I probably shouldn't bite.

Yeah, knowing about Baraboo (though I don't know the meat market) kinda marks you as a cheesehead insider. I'm an hour and a half from Baraboo, BTW, so that's a bit of an obstacle as well....nice road trip for the GTS...oh, wait...

Devils Lake would be a great photo-op spot.

Getcha a new oil pump, you'll get back on the road in no time.

Well, that shortens my adventure a bit.

Will have to put off the snap ring adventure for another day.

Well, could still be arranged. However, you must know that A+ curds are same-day fresh and lose their squeak quickly. I will still eat them, but by the time they'd arrive they'd be B quality...

oh don't I know it.

still beats all the morons around here sitting at a table for 3 hours making an unholy stinky mess with crabs and maybe getting 7 ounces of meat to show for their efforts


(for the record, my heyday at Noah's was back when Chris Farley (RIP) came into the Kahuna Cafe in a speedo and as Matt Foley taught us how to make a triple cheeseburger)

Yeah, maybe bite the bullet. Saves a lot of fretting. Not going to say money's no object, but fairly cheap addition to a rather long shopping list isn't going to pinch much.

On one of our group rides a few years back we crossed the Wisconsin on the ferry and rode the South Shore Drive. Doing a route for next month again and thinking of going back....

For context, I grew up in Ames (IA) and dad had a summer place near the Dells along the Wisconsin River, just across from Stand Rock. Having a campfire in the evenings listening to the pow-wow almost nightly during the high season was really cool.

So many fantastic memories from the whole state. Miss it a lot. Looking forward to not having to go where Uncle Sugar dictates in a couple years.

So, looks like a plan, unless someone swoops in to dissuade me from pulling the pin. Looks like I could have gone with a whole new engine for what it's going to cost, but hey, reassembly is the fun...and cleaner part. I hope. At least I'll have a partially new engine! I know Robot talks about liking to rebuild, vs. replace, but I can't imagine getting the job done for under $2K and that's not even a complete rebuild. Still, probably a complete rebuild is less than a new engine, so there's that.

Anyway, it's gitder and me taking one for the team, so you all can learn how not to do stupid things and if you do why you'd want to actually pay someone to do it for you. The jury's still out on my judgement....

If anything you're serving as the cautionary tale to have a good used engine waiting in the wings, and while it's waiting go ahead and rebuild it with increased displacement, etc and make it a barnstormer.

If the family barn was going to available indefinitely, might be nice to snatch up acrashed scooter or two in the Midwest to keep handy. OTOH anything else this big coming up would encourage me to go scooter shopping instead.

I have replaced engines in two of my GTs.

The first one I bought from a wrecked GT that had been disassembled, the second from a damaged GT that I bought whole.

The first engine cost $650. The whole scooter $850.

I had my mechanic do the work. I don't remember the exact cost but I think around $400 and $800 (had to remove two engines, install one)

There were other costs, gas to drive to pick both up in Atlanta and Bradenton, etc.

But I have been pleased with the scooters.

Bill

Another part of the pump equation is the relief valve. Somewhere there is going to be a plunger and spring assembly that controls the pressure. Be sure to look at it and be sure the plunger moves freely in the bore. It's as important as the pump if not more.

That's a fixed displacement pump and the flow rate is determined by RPM'S (pumps produce flow not pressure) The resistance to flow, pressure, is controlled by the relief valve.

Okay, pretty obscure question, but the manual instructs to check the oil bypass valve spring...and says standard length is 54.2mm. I'm a half mm shy of that. Does anyone know if that's an issue?

That's only 1% variation - does the spec give a +/- range? If not, my guess is that anything within a few percent is AOK.

I'd fly with it, no problem.

No, it just states the "standard length" and shows it being measured. I think it's just to provoke anxiety.