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znomit wrote:
I often see motorcyclists out on the road and inside my full face helmet that I can store conveniently under my seat, shed a tear for them and their unfulfilled curryless lives.
What Vespa can store a full face helmet under the seat?!
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TeslaWRLD wrote:
What Vespa can store a full face helmet under the seat?!
Sprint or Primavera with the European bucket
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CaliforniaCruising wrote:
Sprint or Primavera with the European bucket
Oh nice. how hard was it removing the Evap system?
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TeslaWRLD wrote:
Oh nice. how hard was it removing the Evap system?
Very simple, similar process to the GTS


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In a forum ostensibly created by and for riders and others that appreciate Vespas, the repetition of "there are better bikes for the money out there" comes across as extremely boring and vexing. The same goes for "a motorcycle is so much better than a Vespa because...". Besides, a Vespa being a motorcycle as well, unless we are talking 50cc engines, what exactly is the point of restating the same tired phrases over and over again? If you don't aspire or cannot afford to ride a new or used Vespa, fine, but those who do have zero to gain from you talking to yourself about that decision or opinion in a public forum.

I owned Hondas and liked them well enough but did not love them. Would I ever point that out on a Honda forum? Nah, I don't want to be that boring and superfluous person, too much self respect for that.
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giallo wrote:
In a forum ostensibly created by and for riders and others that appreciate Vespas, the repetition of "there are better bikes for the money out there" comes across as extremely boring and vexing. The same goes for "a motorcycle is so much better than a Vespa because...". Besides, a Vespa being a motorcycle as well, unless we are talking 50cc engines, what exactly is the point of restating the same tired phrases over and over again? If you don't aspire or cannot afford to ride a new or used Vespa, fine, but those who do have zero to gain from you talking to yourself about that decision or opinion in a public forum.
Who says every comment has to offer something to gain?
Those that don't like it can ignore the thread.

We all like Vespas, that's why we're here but that doesn't mean (un)pleasant truths can't be stated. The huge markup is for style.
giallo wrote:
I owned Hondas and liked them well enough but did not love them. Would I ever point that out on a Honda forum? Nah, I don't want to be that boring and superfluous person, too much self respect for that.
Well that's the difference. You stated you didn't love your Hondas. I DO love my Vespa. Loving something doesn't mean you have to be in denial about drawbacks.

As for self respect, so those who acknowledge unpleasant realities about something now lack self respect? Can you hear yourself?

You sound like someone who a bought a brand new Vespa and don't like to know that huge markup is for style.
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Scooter riders don't wave to each other. Bike riders don't wave to scooter riders, either. I think it's a shame. Sports car drivers used to wave, but that's back when there were sports cars.
Maybe we should ask the Pope or someone to fix this.
Otherwise, scooters are great for getting around town. At least the 300hpe model is. I wouldn't like any less HP, plenty of people appear to find the smaller displacement models fine. The old two-strokes are a total gas. But I'm too old to risk riding on the road without ABS.
⚠️ Last edited by Pebowles on UTC; edited 1 time
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znomit wrote:
I often see motorcyclists out on the road and inside my full face helmet that I can store conveniently under my seat, shed a tear for them and their unfulfilled curryless lives.
😅 yes, the storage is wonderfully convenient.
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Nancy80 wrote:
Who says every comment has to offer something to gain?
Those that don't like it can ignore the thread.

We all like Vespas, that's why we're here but that doesn't mean (un)pleasant truths can't be stated. The huge markup is for style.



Well that's the difference. You stated you didn't love your Hondas. I DO love my Vespa. Loving something doesn't mean you have to be in denial about drawbacks.

As for self respect, so those who acknowledge unpleasant realities about something now lack self respect? Can you hear yourself?

You sound like someone who a bought a brand new Vespa and don't like to know that huge markup is for style.
🛵 🏍️ 🚴
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when I'm not wrenching on motorbikes I like talking motorbikes.
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Nancy80 wrote:
We all like Vespas, that's why we're here but that doesn't mean (un)pleasant truths can't be stated. The huge markup is for style.
While I would agree that the metal body and corresponding attractive paint work of a Vespa adds to style, I question that Piaggio retail markups are "huge" compared to other manufacturers. Look at the retail price of a BMW or a Harley Davidson if you want to see expensive. Now look at the retail price of other Piaggio products which use a tubular frame and plastic panels. Seems like retail price is more closely related to cost of manufacture than you acknowledge.
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Nancy80 wrote:
Exactly. You like what you like. Logic sometimes has less to do with it.
Even Harley owners have said to me when MC shopping "go Japanese. Not worth it, I just happen to love Harleys."

Same goes for Vespas. I love mine but can't in good conscience recommend a new one to anyone asking. There's better value in MC's.
I've owned motorcycles and scooters. When we decided to go from 8, combination of motorcycles and scooters to 2 PTW it was my Vespa GTS 300 and my husbands Sports City 250 we kept. Not the Honda or Suzuki motorcycles or the BV 500s. Heck, while all of can and have ridden motorcycle (me, husband, two boys- now adult males) we prefers the scooters over motorcycle form factor. He prefers the style of the Sports City, a better "value" over my GTS but that isn't why he chose it over a Vespa nor why I chose my Vespa over another scooter. Heck, my oldes son who is now 30 owns a BV 350 which is his only transport. Never has owned a car though he'll rent one or a truck when he needs one. No matter how much better monetary "value" you think a motorcycle is if it doesn't make you happy it is valueless.
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cdwise wrote:
No matter how much better monetary "value" you think a motorcycle is if it doesn't make you happy it is valueless.
Yes. But what if a motorcycle does make you happy? Value be darned. In all my years of riding I've only had one of each that I put in the bad memory books. A Honda Big Ruckus and a Kawasaki W650 and for the same reason...they were dogs. In both cases they were left in the dust by my Late wife's Honda Rebel. The W650 had the ponies to make up ground fairly quickly because it was bigger but got trounced off the line. The Big Ruckus was even worse against the Rebel. It couldn't get out of its way off the line or in picking up speed against a well ridden Rebel. I didn't regret getting rid of either of those.

Of the two each I have now they all make me smile but none more than the others.
⚠️ Last edited by kz1000ST on UTC; edited 1 time
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cdwise wrote:
No matter how much better monetary "value" you think a motorcycle is if it doesn't make you happy it is valueless.
Yes, absolutely. Great summary. I was speaking strictly from a logical aspect.
I love my (very old) Vespa. Time for a ride for the sake of it!
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One does not simply walk into a Vespa dealership and purchase one of their fine machines based on what your brain tells you ❤️
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Another manufacturer that makes good money on its product is Moto Guzzi.

Not only are their products about 10% higher than they should be they also have a very clever tactic of making Special Editions with different paint and little touches that cost them very little but warrant a hike on the shop floor.

To be fair the premium could also be because Moto Guzzi make less motorcycles than everyone else or they could just be relying on an eager loyal customer base who they are counting on to pay the extra.
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Dooglas wrote:
Seems like retail price is more closely related to cost of manufacture than you acknowledge.
Doubtful. Even "Vespa Helmets" are exorbitantly priced. $150 cotton jackets! $40-$50 baseball caps!? All strictly because of the name.
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Nancy80 wrote:
Doubtful. Even "Vespa Helmets" are exorbitantly priced. $150 cotton jackets! $40-$50 baseball caps!? All strictly because of the name.
This is exactly the same for HD, Ducati, BMW and Triumph.
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Nancy80 wrote:
Doubtful. Even "Vespa Helmets" are exorbitantly priced. $150 cotton jackets! $40-$50 baseball caps!? All strictly because of the name.
A somewhat different discussion. Vespa does not manufacture "Vespa helmets" or "Vespa jackets" any more than Harley Davidson manufactures the avalanche of clothes, boots, and helmets sold at H-D dealerships.
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I was lucky, because last August I found my '20 GTS as a little-used, 500 mile, trade-in at our local Indian dealership (of all places), and 'bagged it' for $5700. I had wanted one for years, but was always lured away by good(?) motorcycle deals that popped up and sabotaged my Vespa yearnings.

It is SO worth what I paid for it at that price, as was my Royal Enfield Interceptor 650 at $6600.

I go back and forth about the cost of also having a late model Triumph Rocket 3 though.

That big booger is expensive, and when it's just sitting around the garage, and I haven't ridden it for a time, I question my sanity for having it......until I ride the damn thing again, that is, then I'm blind-sided once again by the experience of having a two wheeled Tyrannosaur beneath me, and all those silly practical notions of wasted money kind of just go away. It's a superb and exhilarating motorcycle, and all is forgiven....until it goes back into the garage and I haven't ridden it for a while, again, and the cycle of doubt, countered by utter satisfaction, start all over again.

Sometimes, when Trixie and I feel that things are too expensive, we pay a visit to our local Harley dealership and marvel at all the $35,000-$60,000 price stickers taped to the headlights of their inventory of new machines.

We always go home feeling better about the machines that we have.
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JBacklund wrote:
Sometimes, when Trixie and I feel that things are too expensive, we pay a visit to our local Harley dealership and marvel at all the $35,000-$60,000 price stickers taped to the headlights of their inventory of new machines.

We always go home feeling better about the machines that we have.
The funny thing is, Harleys did not start out that way. But neither did Triumph, BSA, Vespa, etc.... Most of these machines were designed to be a working vehicle - to get you back and forth to worth. Maybe you got to play around on it during the weekend. The only real expensive machines I knew of growing up in the 60s were exotic Italian motorcycles and BMWs - but they were known for absolute reliability and touring. But then the Japanese bikes came in and changed everything.
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kz1000ST wrote:
Yes. But what if a motorcycle does make you happy? Value be darned. In all my years of riding I've only had one of each that I put in the bad memory books. A Honda Big Ruckus and a Kawasaki W650 and for the same reason...they were dogs. In both cases they were left in the dust by my Late wife's Honda Rebel. The W650 had the ponies to make up ground fairly quickly because it was bigger but got trounced off the line. The Big Ruckus was even worse against the Rebel. It couldn't get out of its way off the line or in picking up speed against a well ridden Rebel. I didn't regret getting rid of either of those.

Of the two each I have now they all make me smile but none more than the others.
If a motorcycle makes you happy that's what matter. Smiles are the best "value".
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Dooglas wrote:
A somewhat different discussion. Vespa does not manufacture "Vespa helmets" or "Vespa jackets" any more than Harley Davidson manufactures the avalanche of clothes, boots, and helmets sold at H-D dealerships.
Yet all sold at a premium because of name. Same point.
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I don't think that there's much money for Dealers in new Motorcycles and Scooters these days which is why the manufacturers are looking at other revenue streams.

Having said that BMW and Harley Davidson pioneered moneytising the lifestyle, which of course you have to commit to.

Actually, does anyone else ever feel weird when you ride out on a make of bike that doesn't match the one on your shirt ?
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I have personally never considered scooters and motorcycles as mutually exclusive vehicles and have enjoyed both simultaneously, and expect to always do so.

Their differences are what makes them interesting, and although direct comparisons in their missions and performance are unavoidable, they are to be expected, and I feel, positively anticipated.

My '20 GTS 300 is my first Vespa, but I have owned four Suzuki Burgman 650's in the past, and would have purchased a 400 Burgman or Yamaha 400 Majesty if nice used examples of either had popped up at an opportune time.

I can't remember the last time that I owned only one machine exclusively, but it's been decades.

We seem to level off at about five bikes at any given time, usually at a ratio of my wife's one to my four, dropping occasionally to a total of four, and occasionally spiking to six.

We are self-limited to how many bikes we can stuff into our slightly oversized two car garage...and still get the two cars in there. We refuse to rent off-site storage for our crap.

I would consider trading in or selling my '23 Royal Enfield Continental GT (my 70th motorcycle) for a second, lightly used, Vespa GTS though, especially if it was that red model. I'm a sucker for the red one.
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[quote="Nancy80"]
RE has improved immensely the past few years.

I can agree to that, having traded my GTS for a RE Meteor, When I had a look at the bike before I bought it, I was impressed at the quality and value of the bike, It was £4000 brand new, with a two year warranty and breakdown cover included. I've had the Meteor for 6 months now, and haven't come across a single problem, with either any mechanical or electrical problems and it rides like a dream.
My only issue is with me- getting used to changing gear with the toe/heel shifter after over 20 years of riding Vespa's!
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louswheel wrote:
{
RE has improved immensely the past few years.

I can agree to that, having traded my GTS for a RE Meteor, When I had a look at the bike before I bought it, I was impressed at the quality and value of the bike, It was £4000 brand new, with a two year warranty and breakdown cover included. I've had the Meteor for 6 months now, and haven't come across a single problem, with either any mechanical or electrical problems and it rides like a dream.
My only issue is with me- getting used to changing gear with the toe/heel shifter after over 20 years of riding Vespa's!
Graham
How is that coming? It's a reason holding me back (riding a shifter)!
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louswheel wrote:
RE has improved immensely the past few years.

I can agree to that, having traded my GTS for a RE Meteor, When I had a look at the bike before I bought it, I was impressed at the quality and value of the bike, It was £4000 brand new, with a two year warranty and breakdown cover included. I've had the Meteor for 6 months now, and haven't come across a single problem, with either any mechanical or electrical problems and it rides like a dream.
My only issue is with me- getting used to changing gear with the toe/heel shifter after over 20 years of riding Vespa's!
Graham
150 miles on my Hunter so far - will be 200 after today's Sunday ride. Problem-free so far but it's too early to tell.

I seen messages about a normal shifter being fitted in place of the heel-toe shifter, but I've not really looked into it.

Now, imagine these bikes without a gear change altogether - it would certainly take away from the character.

Different bikes for different cravings I suppose! 🏍️🛵
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I've never owned a motorcycle, but I'm on my fourth scooter. I don't like the idea of shifting. I always tell myself that shifting isn't a big deal; I drove a manual car for a few months last Spring. Then, I remember what a pain it was. Then, I remember that I ride in four seasons in less-than-ideal conditions, and I'm not looking for extra responsibility while trying to avoid patches of ice and texting drivers. Then, I see an accident like I saw yesterday - a side-swiped Harley Davidson - and wonder to myself, did the the rider stall crossing that intersection? Did the guy who hit him (probably on his phone) just figure he'd drive right along and miss him stopping in the road? That's not going to happen to me.

I'm looking at the Honda DCT motorcycles. I reckon they'll take up more space than a scooter in my garage and my legs will be even colder in the winter (that's one thing I miss about my GTS versus my Honda PCX - the GTS had much better leg protection from the elements).
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There's nothing like the feeling of accelerating away from the apex in the right gear.

A CVT or a DCT will never match that. Very efficient but not engaging.

The BMW's gearbox is just horrendous but I couldn't go back to an Automatic.
⚠️ Last edited by Bill Dog on UTC; edited 1 time
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I always find this business of "I want to avoid the bother of shifting" perplexing. It was a little cumbersome when I was ten years old and using a hand shift two stroke but once I moved on to foot shift it came naturally like breathing while walking. As I listen to the sound of the engine my foot and hand move almost automatically these days. Like Bill said the acceleration in the right gear coming off a corner is a joy to behold.
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The DCT does give you the option of manual shifting and you don't have to rev match - so there's that too I guess. I had a Honda CTX with the DCT but sold it within a couple months. The DCT was ok, but I did not like the way it downshifted and the feet forward ergos were hard on my back. Typical Honda reliability, though.
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On cruisers, shifting does not come into play near as much as on, say, a sport bike. On the latter, it is a must for blasting out of a curve or setting up a hill climb. Fun stuff.
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kz1000ST wrote:
I always find this business of "I want to avoid the bother of shifting" perplexing. It was a little cumbersome when I was ten years old and using a hand shift two stroke but once I moved on to foot shift it came naturally like breathing while walking. As I listen to the sound of the engine my foot and hand move almost automatically these days. Like Bill said the acceleration in the right gear coming off a corner is a joy to behold.
Says the guy riding and shifting since he was ten! I started riding scooters at nearly forty years of age and have never even owned a manual-shift car. It's not necessarily the 'bother' of shifting a bike that I want to avoid - its just less safe for the uninitiated and inexperienced. At this point, I am also avoiding the bother of installing my own roof shingles and felling the dead ash trees in my yard (two other things with which I have little experience), not because I couldn't do those things, but because there an increased possibility I would get hurt trying.
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When I had a Honda CTX with DC, in the Colorado mountains I often found myself in manual mode. It was fun playing with the gears but I got tired of the longer wheelbase and the width with hard touring bags on it. It was lovely for touring but tiresome in the city. Plus when I had it in Houston the engine heat was sometime brutal in the hot, humid summers.

I've got a pin in my left ankle so shifting a manual only motorcycle gets painful rather quickly. Ironically it doesn't bother me using the clutch in a manual car.
@bill_dog avatar
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eeeee bip
BMW R1100RT The Problem Child Kymco Downtown 300 - I'm not the Uber Honda Cub - Scorched Earth Policy
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eeeee bip
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BMW R1100RT The Problem Child Kymco Downtown 300 - I'm not the Uber Honda Cub - Scorched Earth Policy
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I learnt to ride and drive on manuals so bang goes that theory.
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Molto Verboso
2020 GTS300 HPE/2022 Triumph Rocket 3R
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Location: Black Hills South Dakota USA
 
Molto Verboso
@jbacklund avatar
2020 GTS300 HPE/2022 Triumph Rocket 3R
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Location: Black Hills South Dakota USA
UTC quote
Shifting a motorcycle with a great engine and an equally great transmission is a wonderfully satisfying experience...and riding a great scooter with an equally great shiftless transmission(?) is a wonderful experience, especially in the area I live in.

If we were to buy another Honda Goldwing, it would be the automatic version.

Sometimes I 'draw the line', though.

For the past several months, we've been casually shopping for a Miata roadster, no hurry, just waiting for the right deal to pop up at the right price.

I can take or leave whether a bike has a manual or an automatic, but a classic, two seat, traditional roadster convertible MUST have a manual transmission.

I won't even look at a Miata with an automatic, and feel that it should be illegal to manufacture or possess such an abomination against nature.
@bill_dog avatar
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eeeee bip
BMW R1100RT The Problem Child Kymco Downtown 300 - I'm not the Uber Honda Cub - Scorched Earth Policy
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I have to agree with you. It's the work of the Devil.

Why would you ruin one of the best Sportscars ever by fitting an Autobox to it ?
@znomit avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
LX190 Friday afternoon special, [s]Primavera[/s], S50, too many pushbikes
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
@znomit avatar
LX190 Friday afternoon special, [s]Primavera[/s], S50, too many pushbikes
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UTC quote
Bill Dog wrote:
Why would you ruin one of the best Sportscars ever by fitting an Autobox to it ?
So I can browse MV while driving of course.
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Molto Verboso
Dongfang 170cc, CF Moto Fashion 250
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Posts: 1891
Location: Hyde Park, New York
 
Molto Verboso
@kz1000st avatar
Dongfang 170cc, CF Moto Fashion 250
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Location: Hyde Park, New York
UTC quote
I remember when I bought the scooter for my late wife. She had to know how to ride a shift bike to take the MSF course. So we dragged out an old Honda CR60 two stroke. After five minutes she was riding around our yard (3 acres) and shifting like she was born to it. The scooter didn't have a chance after that and within a couple of weeks she was riding around town on a 250 Rebel. She called the bike her "Mid Life Crisis" since she was fifty years old at the time. She blew through the MSF course and had her license in no time. She put ten thousand on the bike by the time cancer took her four years later.

But I will admit she had a five speed Scion xB for seven years by the time the two wheeled bug bit her.
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eeeee bip
BMW R1100RT The Problem Child Kymco Downtown 300 - I'm not the Uber Honda Cub - Scorched Earth Policy
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BMW R1100RT The Problem Child Kymco Downtown 300 - I'm not the Uber Honda Cub - Scorched Earth Policy
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UTC quote
Last August I was riding up Pikes Peak on a Suzuki Burgman 400 and because there was no air at that altitude and I had no manual gearbox I was relying on momentum to get around the corners while cutting off the apexes.

If I hadn't the scooter would have stalled and stopped as the CVT wasn't generating enough drive to power out of the corner.

I would have given generously to have a manual gearbox so I could hold the revs up so I'd argue it would have been a lot safer.

NB On the way back down it wouldn't go faster than 30mph.
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