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Hi - today I learned a harsh lesson when doing 60ish on the motorway my rear wheel came off - all 5 stub bolts sheered off. Stayed upright thank God but my rear hub needs replacing. Lesson - check-tighten your nuts after changing a wheel...

Question is - which hub do I need for a 57-plate PX125? Is it the internal oil seal or external oil seal type?

Any help appreciated
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spence731 wrote:
Hi - today I learned a harsh lesson when doing 60ish on the motorway my rear wheel came off - all 5 stub bolts sheered off. Stayed upright thank God but my rear hub needs replacing. Lesson - check-tighten your nuts after changing a wheel...

Question is - which hub do I need for a 57-plate PX125? Is it the internal oil seal or external oil seal type?

Any help appreciated
is there video of this?
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GickSpeed wrote:
is there video of this?
Unfornately not but here's a pic of the aftermath...



[/img]
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Jet Eye Master
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Lucky to keep it up.
Internal seal. Any px hub will fit.
Didn't it feel loose?
Number plate is very illegal...btw
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Jack221 wrote:
Number plate is very illegal...btw
Why is that? Just curious.
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nomadinsiam wrote:
Why is that? Just curious.
Black plate is only legal on pre 1980 with the tax class historic. The police can impound it and change the plate for you. Getting it back is the issue.
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nomadinsiam wrote:
Why is that? Just curious.
Too small, and silver on black is only permitted for registrations up to 1980 in the UK. They were originally allowed on pre 1973 vehicles only, but then in 2015 the law changed, so that any vehicle 40+ years old was considered a 'classic' vehicle. Classics became exempt from vehicle excise duty, and later the annual MOT (safety test). You could also use the old and desirable silver on black plates. However in 2021, they introduced the 1980 cap, so anything that subsequently turned 40 was no longer eligible, although the tax and MOT exemptions continue to be applied to 40+ year old vehicles on a rolling basis.

For context, when I bought my 1976 Vespa in 2004, it was not eligible, so I had to use the standard black on yellow, but then I was able to switch to silver on black from 2016 onwards. My 1987 Vespa will be 40 in 4 years time, but it can never have a silver on black plate under current law due to the 1980 cap.

Apologies for the lengthy explanation, but a lot changed in the UK since 2015
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That's interesting, thanks.
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swa45 wrote:
Too small, and silver on black is only permitted for registrations up to 1980 in the UK. They were originally allowed on pre 1973 vehicles only, but then in 2015 the law changed, so that any vehicle 40+ years old was considered a 'classic' vehicle. Classics became exempt from vehicle excise duty, and later the annual MOT (safety test). You could also use the old and desirable silver on black plates. However in 2021, they introduced the 1980 cap, so anything that subsequently turned 40 was no longer eligible, although the tax and MOT exemptions continue to be applied to 40+ year old vehicles on a rolling basis.

For context, when I bought my 1976 Vespa in 2004, it was not eligible, so I had to use the standard black on yellow, but then I was able to switch to silver on black from 2016 onwards. My 1987 Vespa will be 40 in 4 years time, but it can never have a silver on black plate under current law due to the 1980 cap.

Apologies for the lengthy explanation, but a lot changed in the UK since 2015
In a prior life I would call that a "Goat F@ck".

(slang, chiefly military, vulgar) A chaotic situation where some effort has gone thoroughly wrong; a fiasco or clusterfuck.
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spence731 wrote:
Hi - today I learned a harsh lesson when doing 60ish on the motorway my rear wheel came off - all 5 stub bolts sheered off. Stayed upright thank God but my rear hub needs replacing. Lesson - check-tighten your nuts after changing a wheel...

Question is - which hub do I need for a 57-plate PX125? Is it the internal oil seal or external oil seal type?

Any help appreciated
To brings things back to the original subject matter

I purchased two of the Scootopia hubs, which are somehow reinforced and use Lambretta style easily replaceable studs. I really like them.
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Thanks all for help/advice. Yeah the plate is illegal I've been getting away with it, good job the police never pulled over to help...

So I've changed the rear hub and it's making a terrible grinding sound when I spin it. All torqued down correctly with no play. Assume this isn't normal and will not go away after a period of "run-in"?
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It looks like your scooter is a EFL...which would mean that you should have the sealed bearing along with the internal axle seal. Those bearings are known to go bad. Because it sure sounds like your bearing is falling apart and collapsing.
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whodatschrome wrote:
It looks like your scooter is a EFL...which would mean that you should have the sealed bearing along with the internal axle seal. Those bearings are known to go bad. Because it sure sounds like your bearing is falling apart and collapsing.
When I put the old hub back on and spin it is nearly silent, the grinding noise is coming from rubbing on the backplate with the new hub fitted. The internal axle is spinning freely and quietly when I spin it over in my hand.
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spence731 wrote:
Thanks all for help/advice. Yeah the plate is illegal I've been getting away with it, good job the police never pulled over to help...

So I've changed the rear hub and it's making a terrible grinding sound when I spin it. All torqued down correctly with no play. Assume this isn't normal and will not go away after a period of "run-in"?
Did you lose/forget the spacer-washer?
https://beedspeed.com/en-us/products/vespa-hub-nut-rear-spacer-washer-px-efl-t5-disc-lml
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Hi Ray - is that the washer that sits under the hub nut? No, I've got that.

However, having measured the new hub it appears that the inner spindle (arrowed) is about 2mm shorter in length than the old hub, which would explain why it is rubbing on the rear seat as it is sitting closer. I didn't know they could be different sizes, I just ordered the internal oil seal type hub as recommended on this thread?
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spence731 wrote:
Hi Ray - is that the washer that sits under the hub nut? No, I've got that.

However, having measured the new hub it appears that the inner spindle (arrowed) is about 2mm shorter in length than the old hub, which would explain why it is rubbing on the rear seat as it is sitting closer. I didn't know they could be different sizes, I just ordered the internal oil seal type hub as recommended on this thread?
Although, on reflection it does seem odd that the spindle is 2mm shorter than the old hub but the washer you linked up is 2mm thick...

And this rear hub fixing kit shows TWO washers...
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So on closer inspection there appears to be significant differences between these hubs on the inside. Any experts on here able to tell me what I've got (bottom pic) and what I've bought (top pic) as they are clearly very different...
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Looks like one hub is for the rubber external 27mm hub seal and the other is for the rubber external 30mm oil seal. Of course the 30mm hub will be stronger since there's more "meat" that surrounds the area where the axle slips into the hub splines. Then i think there's also a 32mm hub that's for the felt oil seal. Get out the calipers to make sure what the diameters are before you go buying and installing seals.

The brake drum backing plate can make a horrendous grinding noise when it rubs on the drum at a very low RPM. Usually that's a problem of the plate getting bent or if there's a buildup of powder coating on it.
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spence731 wrote:
Although, on reflection it does seem odd that the spindle is 2mm shorter than the old hub but the washer you linked up is 2mm thick...

And this rear hub fixing kit shows TWO washers...
I haven't measured one, but in my mind the original washer was really thick, like closer to 4mm thick...
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whodatschrome wrote:
Looks like one hub is for the rubber external 27mm hub seal and the other is for the rubber external 30mm oil seal. Of course the 30mm hub will be stronger since there's more "meat" that surrounds the area where the axle slips into the hub splines. Then i think there's also a 32mm hub that's for the felt oil seal. Get out the calipers to make sure what the diameters are before you go buying and installing seals.

The brake drum backing plate can make a horrendous grinding noise when it rubs on the drum at a very low RPM. Usually that's a problem of the plate getting bent or if there's a buildup of powder coating on it.
Cheers...I've measured across the diameter of both and I think they are the same, certainly no wild difference (hard to tell without a set of calipers which I don't have), the biggest difference is the chamfered base around the axle on the new hub. Wish I could identify the old hub by part number then I could simply order a replacement. Didn't think this was going to be so difficult!
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spence731 wrote:
Cheers...I've measured across the diameter of both and I think they are the same, certainly no wild difference (hard to tell without a set of calipers which I don't have), the biggest difference is the chamfered base around the axle on the new hub. Wish I could identify the old hub by part number then I could simply order a replacement. Didn't think this was going to be so difficult!
This is what you have now ("branded" Piaggio):
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/brake-drum-piaggio-rear_24277240
Don't sweat the chamfered base.

"If I were you*" I'd try adding another 2mm spacer-washer and see how it goes. You've definitely stressed both bearings, seal, etc with the mishap.
A few bucks to see how it sounds/feels.
There's an oil weep-hole under the case before the wheel. If the internal seal leaks, oil will leak from there vs into your brakes with an external seal

Look up your bike in the SIP Explos for measurements/compatibility:
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/explos

*I'm not you, so not a recommendation. Just what I'd do next step.
Good luck!
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Ray8 wrote:
This is what you have now ("branded" Piaggio):
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/brake-drum-piaggio-rear_24277240
Don't sweat the chamfered base.

"If I were you*" I'd try adding another 2mm spacer-washer and see how it goes. You've definitely stressed both bearings, seal, etc with the mishap.
A few bucks to see how it sounds/feels.
There's an oil weep-hole under the case before the wheel. If the internal seal leaks, oil will leak from there vs into your brakes with an external seal

Look up your bike in the SIP Explos for measurements/compatibility:
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/explos

*I'm not you, so not a recommendation. Just what I'd do next step.
Good luck!
Thanks for the advice/recommendations. Just another quick question, are you able to tell from this picture if I have an internal or external seal set-up?
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Internal. You can see the felt backed bearing protector in front of the bearing where an external seal would be on an older Vespa. The seal is on the inside of the bearing. You will also notice a small hole in the casing more or less under the bearing. This is allow any oil that makes it past the seal to drain out onto the road, instead of all over your brake shoes!
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swa45 wrote:
Internal. You can see the felt backed bearing protector in front of the bearing where an external seal would be on an older Vespa. The seal is on the inside of the bearing. You will also notice a small hole in the casing more or less under the bearing. This is allow any oil that makes it past the seal to drain out onto the road, instead of all over your brake shoes!
Thank you - next task is to measure the diameter of the inner boss, calipers inbound
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So I've measured both the new and replacement hub boss with a set of calipers and they are both 31.5mm as expected. Removed the brake shoes and rear plate and on inspection I believe that the plate might be slightly warped so I've ordered a new one and new brake shoes - might as well whilst I'm in there (and I believe it is recommended when you fit a new hub).

Hopefully all will fit together nicely - I'll keep you posted.
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with the backing plate - no need for perfection or to be extra nice to it, figure out where it's rubbing and bend it out of the way a bit. It's just to keep crap from getting in to your brakes. they get whacked around sometimes, just "make it fit".
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sdjohn wrote:
with the backing plate - no need for perfection or to be extra nice to it, figure out where it's rubbing and bend it out of the way a bit. It's just to keep crap from getting in to your brakes. they get whacked around sometimes, just "make it fit".
Thanks - it kind of rubs all over really that's the problem. I did try giving it a bit of persuasion with a hammer but couldn't make it fit.

I do also have a 30mm boss hub and it appears to have a wider/deeper channel where the plate fits. Do you know if it is possible to retrofit a 30mm external seal-type hub to an internal seal-type engine? I've read that the 31.5mm boss doesn't have a ground running face, so I could see that you would have a problem fitting an internal seal-type hub to an external seal-type engine - but what about the other way round?

BTW thanks everyone for contributing/advising - I'm learning lots about my bike that I didn't know.
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spence731 wrote:
I do also have a 30mm boss hub and it appears to have a wider/deeper channel where the plate fits. Do you know if it is possible to retrofit a 30mm external seal-type hub to an internal seal-type engine? I've read that the 31.5mm boss doesn't have a ground running face, so I could see that you would have a problem fitting an internal seal-type hub to an external seal-type engine - but what about the other way round?

That's correct, the 31.5mm hub doesn't have a smooth machined surface for the axle seal to ride on. I have used a 30mm hub and external 30mm axle seal instead of the 31.5mm hub and 31.5mm felt seal on my PX (while the internal seal and the double shielded bearing is still in place). I just smeared grease on the surface of the hub where the seal rises.
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Update...in the interests of general learning and sharing of info.

The back plate just needed a bit of "fettling" with a hammer whilst in situ to resolve the rubbing issue. The new backplate is still in its packaging unused.

The hub I had ordered fits fine now that the back plate has been "fettled".

Everything put back together, torqued down and working correctly. Thanks for everyone's input, I've learned a lot.

However....

I tried to replace the brake shoes (the old ones weren't that worn and still work well but it was recommended so I bought new ones), but they are so thick that I couldn't get the hub to fit over them. Has anyone ever come across this problem before and how did you resolve it?
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spence731 wrote:
I tried to replace the brake shoes (the old ones weren't that worn and still work well but it was recommended so I bought new ones), but they are so thick that I couldn't get the hub to fit over them. Has anyone ever come across this problem before and how did you resolve it?
Apart from making sure that they are seated correctly, you could leave out the spacer clips and try again. You may also be able to grind the surface of the clips down a little.
swa45 wrote:
I purchased two of the Scootopia hubs, which are somehow reinforced and use Lambretta style easily replaceable studs. I really like them.
I've just bought one and they seem to be a good thing... nice fit on the splines. Are there different length studs available that you know of?
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Ginch wrote:
Apart from making sure that they are seated correctly, you could leave out the spacer clips and try again. You may also be able to grind the surface of the clips down a little.



I've just bought one and they seem to be a good thing... nice fit on the splines. Are there different length studs available that you know of?
I bought mine when they first hit the market and they came with the Lambretta style studs. Looking at them now, they appear to supply them with generic button head M8 screws and you can get any length you like. Scootopia supplies hex, but I prefer Torx (T40) in marine A4 stainless. Example here from my favourite fixings supplier:

https://www.accu.co.uk/95-torx-button-screws?Finish=Matte+Black%2CNatural&Material=Marine+Stainless+Steel+%28A4%29&Thread+Size+%28T%29=M8+%288mm%29&page=1

Cheers.
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swa45 wrote:
I bought mine when they first hit the market and they came with the Lambretta style studs. Looking at them now, they appear to supply them with generic button head M8 screws and you can get any length you like. Scootopia supplies hex, but I prefer Torx (T40) in marine A4 stainless. Example here from my favourite fixings supplier:
I bought mine in the last few weeks from SIP and it came with the Lambretta studs. I see you can get longer studs for alloy rims, which is just as well because I barely have enough room for a standard nut, let alone a washer on these Pinasco rims.

Apologies for the hijack Spence. I've had a similar experience and also managed to keep it upright, unfortunately the alloy rim I had on at the time was ruined along with the drum.
I'm also not counting the time the centre broke out of the drum two up flying downhill...
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Ginch wrote:
I bought mine in the last few weeks from SIP and it came with the Lambretta studs. I see you can get longer studs for alloy rims, which is just as well because I barely have enough room for a standard nut, let alone a washer on these Pinasco rims.

Apologies for the hijack Spence. I've had a similar experience and also managed to keep it upright, unfortunately the alloy rim I had on at the time was ruined along with the drum.
I'm also not counting the time the centre broke out of the drum two up flying downhill...
My image was taken straight from SCK's site, hence the comment re: generic screws. Good to know that they still use the Lambretta ones and that longer ones are available.
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Ginch wrote:
I bought mine in the last few weeks from SIP and it came with the Lambretta studs. I see you can get longer studs for alloy rims, which is just as well because I barely have enough room for a standard nut, let alone a washer on these Pinasco rims.
Yeah, those Pinasco rims are 8mm thick at the stud vs. 6mm for a split rim and the SIP tubeless rims. You pretty much have to replace the studs to run them with any degree of safety.

I've also lost my rear wheel, doing about 50 MPH or so and about to get onto the highway. In my case, the tuned pipe kept it from coming all the way off, or I'd have gone down like a submarine. Definitely not an experience I have any interest in repeating.
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swa45 wrote:
Too small, and silver on black is only permitted for registrations up to 1980 in the UK. They were originally allowed on pre 1973 vehicles only, but then in 2015 the law changed, so that any vehicle 40+ years old was considered a 'classic' vehicle. Classics became exempt from vehicle excise duty, and later the annual MOT (safety test). You could also use the old and desirable silver on black plates. However in 2021, they introduced the 1980 cap, so anything that subsequently turned 40 was no longer eligible, although the tax and MOT exemptions continue to be applied to 40+ year old vehicles on a rolling basis.

For context, when I bought my 1976 Vespa in 2004, it was not eligible, so I had to use the standard black on yellow, but then I was able to switch to silver on black from 2016 onwards. My 1987 Vespa will be 40 in 4 years time, but it can never have a silver on black plate under current law due to the 1980 cap.

Apologies for the lengthy explanation, but a lot changed in the UK since 2015
MOT centres will fail the bike too.

You do not actually own the number plate, it belongs to DVLA and violations of the plates can result in the number being withdrawn so you then have to reapply for registration, which takes weeks/months. Fines of £1000 are fairly common now in a so called clamp down. This is quite a pisser for those who have paid thousands for a cherished plate and decide to space the letters out to create a word letter string; confiscated registration can be quite costly. If you want to stick a black silver plate on and not eligible, only do so for custom shows when your scoot isnt on a public road. When you buy your rear hub try and get a genuine piaggio one cause there are some terribly cheap and dangerous replacement hubs out there! Just cause it boasts "Italian Made" doesnt mean its any good. Some of them have a shiny finish, almost polished look and the brakes dont bind properly for stopping power.
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ferriswolf wrote:
MOT centres will fail the bike too.

You do not actually own the number plate, it belongs to DVLA and violations of the plates can result in the number being withdrawn so you then have to reapply for registration, which takes weeks/months. Fines of £1000 are fairly common now in a so called clamp down. This is quite a pisser for those who have paid thousands for a cherished plate and decide to space the letters out to create a word letter string; confiscated registration can be quite costly. If you want to stick a black silver plate on and not eligible, only do so for custom shows when your scoot isnt on a public road. When you buy your rear hub try and get a genuine piaggio one cause there are some terribly cheap and dangerous replacement hubs out there! Just cause it boasts "Italian Made" doesnt mean its any good. Some of them have a shiny finish, almost polished look and the brakes dont bind properly for stopping power.
Trouble is Ferris, a brand new Piaggio hub is often poor quality. It really is luck of the draw. The best hub is a NOS or A1 second hand from an 80s/90s PX.
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74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8697
Location: Victoria, Australia
UTC quote
swa45 wrote:
Trouble is Ferris, a brand new Piaggio hub is often poor quality. It really is luck of the draw. The best hub is a NOS or A1 second hand from an 80s/90s PX.
Yes I have found the last few Piaggio hubs were getting looser on the spline even when brand new, no better than the FA Italia or Ramp or other brands.

The best Piaggio hubs are the ones that SIP modifies... starting with a Piaggio internal-type seal hub they turn down the boss so it becomes a 30mm sealing surface. Great fit on the splines.
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