Modern Vespa

Hi hive,

Anyone know what cylinder cowl you're suppose to use on a Quattrini m244 kit?

Working on a build, which has no cowl.

I see some expensive glass fibre ones but something tells me I might be able to use a stock PX cowl and cut into it to accommodate for the extra space taken up by the cylinder.

I'm no help, but a Quattrini M244? Nice. I want to see this build.

Not sure about 244's. Can't say I'm a huge fan. Can't say milling the cases out for the crank is something I wanna work on.

If it wasn't already on the bike, I'd be "MHR 221-ing" it.

I just used a standard one and drilled out a new hole for the spark plug.
-all good after 5 years abuse....

It fit ok?

So just a case of moving the hole to the center?

https://www.scooter-center.com/en/cylinder-cowling-bsk-vespa-px200-for-cylinder-quattrini-m232-and-m244-6660112

Yeah that's the one I seen for a zillion dollas…

Yes, fits without problem

Last time I checked $119 USA wasnt a zillion dollas. If you can afford a Quattrini setup $119 aint gonna kill your pocketbook. For $10 mot I got the Carbon fiber item.

Of course, if you're gonna be playing, better be willing to spend the cash.

But I'm looking at it from a cost and function stand point. I'm not after aesthetics or something with a radical design, so I'm comparing it to the price of a stock item.

Someone is saying a stock cover works, that sounds pretty good to me.

For the same objective (cooling the cylinder down) I doubt I'll be buying something 10x price (it says it's 129euros for me).

Of course more than happy for others to buy to fit their needs

This guy said to me when I asked if it was a stock cowling "...yeah just had to modify it slightly and use an exhaust spring holing plate, if you zoom in you will see what I mean." And the spark plug hole too I guess. This one's a 260.

The other question I asked him was about the carb, which he said was a VHST.

See the plate… so probably needs shifting a few millimetres towards the front of the bike…?

Don't have a spare cowl in front of me, any ideas how big the spark plug hole is? 28mm?

I'm not sure exactly what he meant about the plate, but I'm sure it'll be obvious when you try it on for size.
I can measure the hole after work tonight.

I should measure a spark plug socket for the size and add 2mm.

Such a dummy.

Yes you could... but if you're like me and prefer the original style plug clip - and more importantly the rubber boot that holds the air in - then you'd cut it original size.

Just measured, it's 32mm.

Thanks!

Only seen one of those original rubber plugs and plug clips once on a stock bike…

I know this is a few weeks old now and it's probably all done anyway, but for anyone else looking for an answer to the cowl question...

I bought one of the fancy Tomas Compositi fibreglass ones. Don't be like Ginch. They're just not worth it. Not a particularly great fit, the worst bit was where it goes over the fan duct casting on the case. It's just the wrong shape. Not by a lot, but enough that you need to put quite a bit of force on it to get it to go over the top. And it's not really made to bend.

I ended up using the stock one I had, drilled a new hole for the spark plug hole and closed the original with a blind grommet.
I also made a little spacer from a black plastic chopping board to line up the bottom hole. You can see it in the first photo, I was pleased with the way it turned out and I don't think it's very noticeable.

I like that there's tapped holes next to the exhaust, maybe it's made to allow for a different exhaust connection but I cut down a couple of bolts and drilled holes through for the spring.

The hole at the front edge of the metal flywheel cowl was just visible past the back edge of the cylinder cowl, so I filled it with epoxy and painted it. I've never used a screw there anyway.

Nope, not done.

In a queue of engine builds at the moment.

Just finished rebuilding a stock PX200 and got that back on the road.

The m244 is waiting on parts as I type this.

I'm more excited to get back on the oil leaking smallie Parmakit.

Oh I brought the toma cowl. The quality is "home made". Haven't fitted it yet, but resin was in drips on the inside, and the fit looks "figure it out yourself" type of deal. I probably could've done a better job. Granted I don't want to be using time to do it.

Oh for the exhaust spring, I think you could make a small triangle bracket out of steel, 2 holes for the cowl and one for the spring.

Not super confident about the spring rubbing against the exhaust.

Like the drilled bolt, good work around. My Quattrini 181 has the same 8mm holes. I used longer stainless eye bolts for the springs. With the longer extension the spring doesn't touch the pipe.

Looks ready to go. Whats the starting timing and jetting?

btw. P200 engine is only complete with the cowl to fan screw fitted

Home made is not far off!

Yes it would be better if the spring didn't rub, the other side won't - once I find a short enough spring. Should have welded the hook a bit lower.

To begin with at least, I'm using a phbh 30. One, because I already had it, two because I didn't have to buy a manifold as the VR one case comes with one to fit the 30, and three because later I can go to the PWK 35 airstriker I have put aside and enjoy the boost.
Currently the phbh has an AV268, X13, 145 main and 55 pilot. I feel like this will be fairly close. Timing at about 19 static at the moment. Tomorrow will be first ride/running in session, it's a bit exciting!

19 degrees static good. That's not variable timing on there?

AV268 X13 ok to start with. Leave the main jet out for the first few runs. Once hot and run a while. Make sure that WOT floods out and that the flood out point is around 3/4 throttle.

Cheers Jack.

Just static at the moment, I do have a variable but wanted to keep it simple to begin. In fact after thinking about it for about three years, I bought an Overrev adjustable ignition for Vape. But that's for later.

I normally use the running in method Vader taught me - run hard through the gears (but don't hang on to them), let it cool and do that three times. So if I do that without the main jet that'll be ok?

The M244 will benefit from variable timing but not important for now. Get the carb set up well first.

Leave the main jet out for the heat cycles. It will help keep it rich and prevent early damage but only if the needle and atomiser are big enough.

The AV atomiser is going to drink fuel. Get the initial evaluation done on the 3/4 point; if it's ok buy an AQ270.

Interesting! What's the physical difference between the AV and AQ?

Couldn't get it to run past (guessing) 3000rpm so had to drop the needle to top clip. Thinking I'll try the AV 266 instead and put the clip back to 2nd?

The AQ is used in a smaller PHBL.

I inherited a PHBL, so I could check.

They're not interchangeable.


PHBL 25 uses the AQ

AV266 on the left, AQ264 on the right.

Perhaps Jack was thinking AS? Pretty sure they are interchangeable, just one shorter than the other iirc?

There's another method?

Yep. The way some other people do it because that's the way it's always been done... You know, don't go over 30km/h for the first 2000 k, and 60 for the second 2000, run 10% oil mix because it's safer, that sort of thing.

My mistake. For some reason dellorto use S instead of Q on the PHBH. Only buy AS atomisers.
So it won't rev up without a main jet?

Once I lifted the needle it was ok, just guessing it was too rich.

How did the 3/4 test with no main jet go? Flooding out on 3/4 would be ideal for running in.

Yeah AV atomisers are too rich for most Vespa setups. I'd use AS (the taller one), so the slide/needle/taper kick in at the right time.

You can use a AV, it'll definitely run, but the mid range will suck a bit. You definitely won't be pulling wheelies.

It got there long before that, I was more concerned about getting out of peoples way than running in at that point. I'll try a few things when I next get it out. Cheers 108. I'll see what's in the magic box... it's magic because when you look for it it isn't there.

Put the AV266 in and it was much cleaner with needle back to 2nd clip. Flooding at about half throttle. With a jet in (150) it was similar, a 145 moved the flooding up a bit further but not to 3/4. Once I'm happy that it's run in, do I keep dropping until that flood point is just barely out of reach?

Ordered a couple of AS atomisers (268 & 266), it'll be interesting to see how they feel.

Apologies for the hijack 108! Bit rude of me!

No worries!

Got the answer to my initial question! All good with keeping the conversation going!

I'm interested in how you go with the jetting too.

One thing I learnt with jetting test runs is that, unfortunately you have to ride for a while. At least a few kms before any rich conditions disappear/appear and you really get a sense of the the jetting you've installed. And even better letting it cool down and go for another ride. Then you get a sense of where the pilot jet is too. Any rich conditions where the fuel/oil collects in the crankcase will have an effect.

Yeah you're absolutely right, it'd be nice to think you could spend a couple of hours swapping jets and then you're ready for the next 50,000k. But the world (let alone the desire to tinker) mean that's just not going to happen that way.

Beggars can't be choosers. I don't have access to any dyno, so unfortunately need to put the miles and minutes in to test.

Agree, the world is only so tolerant to hermitting on a Vespa so much, before the war dept comes in to spoil the party.

Sounds like you might need an AS264 as well. The 3/4 point should be without a main jet and unloaded, revving on the stand. If riding it it will be lower.
With this better everything else will fall into place.
Which pilot jet arrangement on your PHBH? Some of them have an atomiser under the pilot jet.

I can't get one locally so hopefully the 266 will do for a bit. They should arrive tomorrow.

Didn't realise you meant on the stand! I'll try it after work tomorrow and see what happens.

Just checked, the pilot is simply a 5mm main jet. No atomiser.

Assuming you get it flooding at 3/4 throttle on the stand, what happens then?


The other question is about the 4% oil ratio that Quattrini recommend. It was my understanding that 4% is/was for plain bearings/bushes and piston ported motors. What's the difference here that requires extra lubrication? Apart from the Piaggio stud layout, it's a modern two stroke cylinder and piston.