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@jordanaitor avatar
UTC

Member
V100 Smallie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 41
Location: Vancouver|Seattle
 
Member
@jordanaitor avatar
V100 Smallie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 41
Location: Vancouver|Seattle
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Hi all,

I've been lurking here a while since picking up a 1985 PGO 150LS Sport a few months ago. I have since sold it to start a new project, a 79 V100 that I picked up on Vancouver Island in March.

Finding Vespas in Vancouver is quite the difficult task. I'm quite jealous of all the finds in the Deal of the Day thread as they're just not that common up here. When I first came across the ad, I realized
A) It was a great deal at $1500 CAD (1150 USD-ish)
B) My pockets were going to get lighter

Im not foreign to the 2T scoot world, I started with a 2002 Yamaha Prebug BWSR (Zuma for you American folk) and have since collected a few Honda Dios. I knew this would be a bad addiction and I was correct.

The lady I purchased it from hadn't ridden it in a few years but its been on a few rallies in the PNW. They knew it now had an air leak and wasnt running in tip top shape. They also said the compression was low and it had a hard time starting. When I met the seller at the ferry terminal, it felt like it had normal compression but when I started it again after packing up, the kick definitely felt weak and slippy. I managed to get it started but it felt off. Looking back, I think the clutch was intermittently slipping when kicking it, causing it feel like it was low compression. Im thinking maybe the cork was dried up in some quadrants?

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Here she is loaded up on the ferry parked between 2 monsters. Luckily she started right up and I managed to limp it off and load it into my car carrier.

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Ripped off those hub covers and prepped a little photoshoot at work before tearing her apart the next week.

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My goal was to get it up and running by summer and I was determined to get it there so the build had to be somewhat swift. I figured after I tore it down, I would know what I needed and what I had to work with.

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I mean it's all there…. Parts list growing. I ended up settling on the following:

Polini 130cc kit
SIP Road Banana
19/20 Mazz race crank
CIF Corteco viton seals/o rings
CIF 4 speed upgrade
Stock SHB19/19 carb
2.55 straight cut primaries
Surflex 4 disc clutch w/Polini wave spring
SIP side stand
SIP Fast Flow fuel tap
SIP white face digital gauge
Used Parmakit 19mm small taper variable digital ignition w/1.6kg flywheel. (Ill install this AFTER im dialed in as I still need to make a custom harness to go 12v)

I went for the basic tried and true bulletproof mods, and splurged with the SIP specific add ons Laughing emoticon . The goal is an easy 90-100kmh (55-60mph) scoot that I can take to work or romp around in the city. I've learned my lessons with running big carbs on my Minarelli and Honda 2Ts that sticking with more bolt on mods and a stock carb up jetted is key for reliability, ease of tuning, and fuel consumption.

I head into WA state often to visit family and took advantage of shipping items to the US for duty free/customs allowance by buying from SIP and Racing Planet. Of course I ordered from Scooter Mercato as well as their customer service was amazing.

It was now time for the dismantle.

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Think I maybe found my air leak?

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Is this woodruff key supposed to look like this?

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Attempted to weld washers to the outer race on the N204 bearing, had to give up for the night.

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Fully dismantled

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Continued the next day and managed to finally nail the bastard out.

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Sandblasted the cases and were ready for reassembly.


Everyone online is telling me to match the transfers for the Polini as it will really open it up, I was told to watch out for punching through the cases so I marked my scribes and went to town. Laying down some JB in case it punched through.

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Until disaster strikes, I punch through on the fly side case halve. UGH. I JB'd it but realized it sucks cause the stator sits flush against the hole. I managed to make do and continue on but grew hesitant that itll hold.

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I sat and hummed and hawed about it for a few days before a lot of the guys on the Smallframe FB groups told me to one and done it and weld er up so off to my friends shop where he made quick work of that.

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I was antsy about running behind on my timeline so I rushed the semi assembly of the bottom end. During my ordering frenzy I somehow didnt realize that my bearing supplier mixed up the 6303 and 6204 bearings by giving me a metal double sealed 6303 and an open 6204. Normally the 6204 is perfect for this application but since I installed the sealed 6303 in the output shaft hub hole, it caused me to install the 6204 in the crank bore essentially ruining 2 fresh bearings. SECOND UGH. I just HAD to punch in the clutch side Corteco Viton seal too so that was toast. I then removed both bearings and went to another supplier locally to pick up a 6303 2RS (Removed the 2 black side seals so its an open 6303) for the crank bore, and a shielded 6204 for the rear hub bore. For the record, I will be installing the newer style NU204 split bearing that allows me to install the inner race directly on the crank stub and sweat the outer(with rollers) into the fly side halve. This will make future disassembly much easier as the 6204 has a tolerance fit that makes splitting difficult. Plus taper roller bearings are much better than single row ball bearings

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Worn vs a fresh CIF kickstart gear

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Trying this again for the 2nd time.

I am now at the point where im waiting for a Malossi crank seal set and 1.00 mm gear stack shoulder shim from Scooterwest (West coast shipping times were the key here) and shipped them up to Point Roberts in WA state. For whatever reason, with the stock 1.15mm shim on the front and back of the stack, the new CIF gears were too tight, basically 0 free play (spec of 0.1-0.4mm) but the gears did rotate fine.

Fun fact, us Canadians like shipping to border towns and drive across to pick up goods. PR is surrounded by Canada so it's a weird little geographical region where high schoolers need to take a bus and cross into the border every day to get to school back in the mainland US. In turn, all shipped goods have to leave the US, cross into Canada, and go back to the US. It's a unique border crossing for sure.

In the mean time, I Cerakote'd the stock 4 bolt rims and prepping a set of fresh Michelin S83s this week while I wait for the ScooterWest order. For those who dont know, Cerakote is a type of paint thats extremely durable and heat resistant. Many use it for painting firearms and automotive headers and parts. It must be sprayed with an HVLP gun and goes quite a long way, it seems to be the motorcyclists/restorers new method of painting certain items.

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Final cured and assembled shot.

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And were caught up! I posted a few of these on the Vespa Smallframe forum and they've been a great hand but figured I'd also make a write up here for the folks over in North America.

After reading up all the threads on here, I just want Swiss to know that his thread was gone over by me many times as we share the same Canadian spec chassis and I believe mine was originally gray as well.

Stay tuned for more updates![img][/img]
@v_oodoo avatar
UTC

Style Maven
'74 50s x3 '87 PK125XL '92 PK50XLS Plurimatic - & - '58 AllState '68 Sprint '66(?) Super125 and '72 DanMotor Super150
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@v_oodoo avatar
'74 50s x3 '87 PK125XL '92 PK50XLS Plurimatic - & - '58 AllState '68 Sprint '66(?) Super125 and '72 DanMotor Super150
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UTC quote
I love your bike, what a looker - you got a great deal, it's in lovely condition!

And your motor is gonna be a jewel too, you do top work and that's an impressive build list. The only thing you might reconsider is your carb.
Quote:
I've learned my lessons with running big carbs on my Minarelli and Honda 2Ts that sticking with more bolt on mods and a stock carb up jetted is key for reliability, ease of tuning, and fuel consumption.
You make a good point here and I suggest that you look at an SHB20L, basically the same carb w/ some nice improvements, but tunes just like a 19. I run two of these on 125 motors and I love them. With your Polini kit & Mazz race crank, I think you would benefit.
Not much different on this end, but it is a bit bigger.
Not much different on this end, but it is a bit bigger.
But much bigger at this end plus the cast in bellmouth.
But much bigger at this end plus the cast in bellmouth.
A friend making an adapter bushing to the stock 19 intake manifold, which works well enough. On the other one I got a proper 20 intake somewhere.
A friend making an adapter bushing to the stock 19 intake manifold, which works well enough. On the other one I got a proper 20 intake somewhere.
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate
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Location: Nashville

134 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate
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134 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
I love everything about this thread. That bike is amazing, you're doing excellent work, and the buses up on lifts for maintenance in the background of your shots made me smile at every picture.

Looking forward to watching this progress and I'm sure you'll have some amazing picture for Vespas that have left the house. A photo thread. soon!
@langolson avatar
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Hooked
Vespa 125 VMA, Vespa SS 180
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Location: Minneapolis, MN
 
Hooked
@langolson avatar
Vespa 125 VMA, Vespa SS 180
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Location: Minneapolis, MN
UTC quote
V oodoo wrote:
You make a good point here and I suggest that you look at an SHB20L, basically the same carb w/ some nice improvements, but tunes just like a 19. I run two of these on 125 motors and I love them. With your Polini kit & Mazz race crank, I think you would benefit.
Are there SHB20L two bolt intakes available? Or just the three bolt PK style?
@langolson avatar
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Hooked
Vespa 125 VMA, Vespa SS 180
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Location: Minneapolis, MN
 
Hooked
@langolson avatar
Vespa 125 VMA, Vespa SS 180
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UTC quote
Great looking scooter!
Quote:
Ripped off those hub covers and prepped a little photoshoot at work before tearing her apart the next week.
Way better without those hubcaps!
@birdsnest avatar
UTC

Not So Moderator
VNB VSC 09C VMA VSX - vbc vmb
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Posts: 8010
Location: Hustletown, TX
 
Not So Moderator
@birdsnest avatar
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UTC quote
Damn. Welcome... heck of a first few posts.

Looks amazing!
@socalguy avatar
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bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
@socalguy avatar
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
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Location: So Cal
UTC quote
What a beauty! Glad to see you're giving it the attention it deserves.

Good call on the Malossi seals. Much better than the others. After much leak chasing, they're the only ones I now use.

With those hogged out ports, I'd second a bigger carb … a Dell 24 or Polini CP 24. You'll need a larger intake, like this:

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/intake-manifold-polini_21500020

Keep up the good work and keep us posted.
@swiss1939 avatar
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Ossessionato
P208, Stella VMC Stelvio 187, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T, 02 Sportster XLH1208
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Ossessionato
@swiss1939 avatar
P208, Stella VMC Stelvio 187, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T, 02 Sportster XLH1208
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UTC quote
Beautiful example of the same bike I picked up two years ago in Florida!

Mine is a bit more rusty, but we shared the same symptoms from the weak compression and kick right down to the oil stain dripping out the crank seal and seized woodruff key.

I'm following this thread as I was eventually planning on rebuilding the engine, but have just gotten it running solid for now.

1979 Vespa 100 Euro Model
@v_oodoo avatar
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Style Maven
'74 50s x3 '87 PK125XL '92 PK50XLS Plurimatic - & - '58 AllState '68 Sprint '66(?) Super125 and '72 DanMotor Super150
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@v_oodoo avatar
'74 50s x3 '87 PK125XL '92 PK50XLS Plurimatic - & - '58 AllState '68 Sprint '66(?) Super125 and '72 DanMotor Super150
Joined: UTC
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UTC quote
Langolson wrote:
Are there SHB20L two bolt intakes available? Or just the three bolt PK style?
I think so, but may require some tracking down. I know Polini has nice intakes w/ a reed in various sizes, I've got on w/ a 19. From SIP website:
Quote:
...suitable for the DELL'ORTO SHB and PHB carburettors. POLINI offers these from SHB 16.16 – PHBL 24 (depending on the model with 2 or 3 hole attachment) with stud connection. For the PHBL 24 and their own 24mm CP carburettor, POLINI provides manifolds with a flexible rubber connection.
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@v_oodoo avatar
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Style Maven
'74 50s x3 '87 PK125XL '92 PK50XLS Plurimatic - & - '58 AllState '68 Sprint '66(?) Super125 and '72 DanMotor Super150
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@v_oodoo avatar
'74 50s x3 '87 PK125XL '92 PK50XLS Plurimatic - & - '58 AllState '68 Sprint '66(?) Super125 and '72 DanMotor Super150
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UTC quote
Langolson wrote:
Great looking scooter!

Way better without those hubcaps!
Oh, I love me them hubcaps! And those look to be in good shape... Maybe you'd trade them for something nice if you get down my way.
OP
@jordanaitor avatar
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Member
V100 Smallie
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Location: Vancouver|Seattle
 
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@jordanaitor avatar
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Thanks for all the kind words, everyone!

Voodoo, I should definitely look into that carb. Will it bolt right up or will I absolutely require some sort of adapter? Is it worthwhile to just skip this and go with a Polini CP21/24 out of the box? Would be nice to delete that flange type intake mani and run a rubber boot like im used to on Japanese scoots. I will gladly trade you something for these hub caps. I have family in Renton and head down 4-6 times a year. Let's connect!

chandlerman, I've been following your Smallstate build as well so it means a lot coming from you, thanks!

SoCalGuy yeah that does seem like a viable mod for sure, is a CP24 overkill? If im sticking with rotary induction, can I go with the reeded intake mani still or stick with just the basic cast intake mani. Kinda goes hand in hand with what voodoo posted later.

@swiss I remember when I first got mine, I saw your post from last year and thinking to myself "my god I hope I dont run into these AC 6V issues…." Kind of why I'm hesitant to convert mine to 12v w/ the Parmakit EI right away cause I have yet to decipher the wiring harness. I have purchased the correct PX brake switch and SIP hand controls (w/ hidden gauge selector button) for the proper 12V but im wondering if I should just cut my losses and go right up to the 12v conversion harness right away. It's so confusing though picking which harness to buy hence this being a "next season" type of problem. So odd how Canada got the V100s, it was such a head scratcher at first because I thought I had a 100 Sport but was so educated that I had 6V AC….and points. Glad to not have turn signals though but once I go 12v I'll add on the handlebar end ones I think.
@socalguy avatar
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bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
@socalguy avatar
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7093
Location: So Cal
UTC quote
Quote:
@socalguy yeah that does seem like a viable mod for sure, is a CP24 overkill? If im sticking with rotary induction, can I go with the reeded intake mani still or stick with just the basic cast intake mani. Kinda goes hand in hand with what voodoo posted later.
Don't think a 24mm carb is overkill at all on a modded 130 kit. Lots of folks run em - I have one on mine and it's been very easy to dial in. Smallies seem to do well with larger carbs - the long intake manifold I think has something to do with it.

The intake Voodoo posted is for reed induction, which is a nice upgrade, but IMO not really needed unless you're building a monster engine. I'd personally stick with rotary.

Also, I prefer a rubber connection at the carb over those kludgy leak-prone clamps. Ugh.
@v_oodoo avatar
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Style Maven
'74 50s x3 '87 PK125XL '92 PK50XLS Plurimatic - & - '58 AllState '68 Sprint '66(?) Super125 and '72 DanMotor Super150
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@v_oodoo avatar
'74 50s x3 '87 PK125XL '92 PK50XLS Plurimatic - & - '58 AllState '68 Sprint '66(?) Super125 and '72 DanMotor Super150
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UTC quote
I ran a PHBL24 w/ a Molossi intake on my ex Primavera 125cc w/ a port matched LML Sensation 3 port top end, so similar to an ET3 now except for the bigger carb & Simonini pipe. Loved it.

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I miss this bike Crying or Very sad emoticon
@v_oodoo avatar
UTC

Style Maven
'74 50s x3 '87 PK125XL '92 PK50XLS Plurimatic - & - '58 AllState '68 Sprint '66(?) Super125 and '72 DanMotor Super150
Joined: UTC
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@v_oodoo avatar
'74 50s x3 '87 PK125XL '92 PK50XLS Plurimatic - & - '58 AllState '68 Sprint '66(?) Super125 and '72 DanMotor Super150
Joined: UTC
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Quote:
@Voodoo, I should definitely look into that carb. Will it bolt right up or will I absolutely require some sort of adapter?
Easiest way is to just make an adapter bushing which works well enough, but you'll need to find a bigger manifold to get full advantage. Sadly the proper 3 bolt PK manifold which you could otherwise easily convert is the wrong shape.
You can see the problem here, the manifold is not centered, it's quite a ways to one side. You can see the adapter bushing sitting on the carb.
You can see the problem here, the manifold is not centered, it's quite a ways to one side. You can see the adapter bushing sitting on the carb.
@swiss1939 avatar
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Ossessionato
P208, Stella VMC Stelvio 187, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T, 02 Sportster XLH1208
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@swiss1939 avatar
P208, Stella VMC Stelvio 187, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T, 02 Sportster XLH1208
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Just realized yours doesn't have bar end signals. Strange that same year both from Canada, and mine came with a completely different electrical system then yours. I'm gathering yours matches the original wiring diagram in the manual. They added an addendum into the manual for my bar end electrical version.

I wonder what the deciding factor was on which ones got it and which didn't. Might have just been a higher price for the signals version.
OP
@jordanaitor avatar
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V100 Smallie
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Location: Vancouver|Seattle
 
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@jordanaitor avatar
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swiss1939 wrote:
Just realized yours doesn't have bar end signals. Strange that same year both from Canada, and mine came with a completely different electrical system then yours. I'm gathering yours matches the original wiring diagram in the manual. They added an addendum into the manual for my bar end electrical version.

I wonder what the deciding factor was on which ones got it and which didn't. Might have just been a higher price for the signals version.
Previous owner did give me the retrofit kit that they bought from SIP and never installed. I will have to convert them for 12V and buy the appropriate harness once I do with the electronic ignition set up.

You're correct though, Canadian models should have the bar end signals, mine definitely didnt get spec'd with that because I dont even have holes on the left grip stick for the turn signal switch mount. Very odd
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parallelogramerist
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UTC quote
I liked the stock SHB20 that was on my PK125XL (but of course i had the 3 bolt manifold).
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@jordanaitor avatar
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Well today was an absolute garbage day. I paid for expedited shipping to get the new seals and shim to the border so I could finish assembly tonight. Two main issues.

Whatever anyone says, do not get Malossi crank seals. Yes they're Viton (PTFE/FKM) but they're a 2 piece bonded design with the viton only on the inner lip. In comparison to a Corteco, it's a one piece design and reduces the likelihood of the lip folding over.

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I work with these types of seals on a weekly basis at work and have never folded one over or lost a garter spring and somehow today, even with adequate lubrication, it still folded on me. The red inner lip just completely delaminated from the black base material. Perhaps age was a factor because the packaging did look faded and it was cut conspicuously to remove the packaging date perhaps. Overall not a fan and would not recommend them again.

Another thing I was not a fan of was the shim I ordered. I ordered a 1.00mm +- 0.02mm. I received a 1.05mm. If that was the case I should've ordered a 0.95mm.

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Other than that, sweating in the last few bearings went without a hitch and I mocked getting the cases mated together while I await another seal. Not too happy with this order from Scooterwest, going to send an email to see whats up. Otherwise I'll be making an order with Scooter Mercato tomorrow as Matt has confirmed they only stock Corteco branded crank seals. Lesson learned.

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@108 avatar
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Ossessionato
PX 200
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Ossessionato
@108 avatar
PX 200
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UTC quote
I think you ended up with an aged seal.

I brought a malossi shock, and it look like it was in the SIP warehouse unmoved for 20 years.

The Polini seal (same deal as the malossi, only Viton on the lip) looked really solid… installed, rode about 50kms, took it off, ended up losing it and finding it again in the parts box, looks good to go again.

Nice blue Snap On cabinet.
@socalguy avatar
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bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7093
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
@socalguy avatar
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7093
Location: So Cal
UTC quote
That's odd. I've got a brand spanking new unopened pack of Malossi seals right here in my hand (same ones I just put in my smallie - I bought an extra set) and they're one piece brown. Maybe you got an old design? Either way, the lip shouldn't have folded like that. Send em back, and get a fresh set. They're good seals, you just got some duds.
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@roland87 avatar
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Molto Verboso
'13 LML Star 200, '81 50 Special, '81 P 150 X, '87 PK 50 Nuova, '84 PK 50 S
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Molto Verboso
@roland87 avatar
'13 LML Star 200, '81 50 Special, '81 P 150 X, '87 PK 50 Nuova, '84 PK 50 S
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So nice smallframe and good thread. Subscribed.
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@jordanaitor avatar
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V100 Smallie
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@jordanaitor avatar
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SoCalGuy, yup those are the new and improved seals that I was not sold haha. Scooterwest mentioned they've had bad luck with them too recently and refunded me the cost, all good there.

I cant believe my luck that my local Vespa dealership had the Corteco vitons in stock! I picked up 2 just as a back up. And onto the build we go again. I am very fortunate my local dealership has a few guys in the service dept that are vintage scooter heads. They clearly make their bread and butter servicing the modern 4T stuff but stockpile parts from SIP that the local vintage guys need. This was in comparison to when I was in Manhattan and Brooklyn last month and visited both dealers only to find they stocked zero vintage parts. Props to Vespa Metro Vancouver

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Seal pressed in as flush as possible with a proper driver, there always seems to be a small lip that protrudes out but I guess that's just the way she goes.

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I walked the crank in my hand, jostling it around as far as itll go and use the crank web hole to view and verify that that sealing edge is not folded and that the spring is in place, perfect. I didn't realize this until after doing this so many times, tightening the primary pinion gear actually pulls the crank up to the bearing and no heating/special tooling is required. This was in comparison to a bunch of videos I watched online where they froze the crank and either lightly tapped it in or used a puller.

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Straight cut primaries installed and this time I think I did the key proper, I could've swore the small primary gear was taper fit onto the crank but I confirmed with the stock parts it is not. Which seems weird to me that the key way actually transmits torque to the clutch basket. Wedged a penny between the teeth and got it up to 35lb/ft but it was pretty tough. Washer bent and yellow torque marked. It was a 2.55 ratio'd RMS primary gear set and the small gear actually had an offset to it. One side worked much better than the other in terms of clearing the bearing stop cast but the stock gear could be mirrored up or down with no issues, odd but it was of note.

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The fun part, I luckily had friends who gifted me a bunch of Hondabond from a dealership so I laid down a thin but generous bead and flattened it out with my finger.

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Olympia gasket was a close fit but not exact. I dry fitted it first to check but the Hondabond actually holds it down so well that conforms a bit.

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Not pictured is me also Hondabonding the flywheel side case halve and then semi-rushing to mate the two together before it set. I dry ran this many times too but there's no way to really gauge how itll go. I supported the engine on wooden blocks to be able to use the kickstart lever to bar the engine over slightly to get the tree to align while also rotating the clutch basket and axle stub. Eventually it relented and gets within 2-3mm of shutting. I then malleted it semi close and inserted all the hardware. I should've Evaporusted all the hardware after giving them a bath so some don't look the best Facepalm emoticon. After I torqued them all down in sequence, 6nm - 9nm - 12nm -Final torqued at 13.5nm. The squish was so clean, I cleaned the remainder with a rag and left a nice smooth bead for aesthetics Laughing emoticon

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Final shot of the super nice SKF NU204 bearing before it gets its crank seal on. I put a few drops of Motul Scooter Power 2T on it and rolled it around prior to crank seal install, a 24mm deep socket made quick work of that.

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Final bottom end assembly shot! Double checked all case bolts at around 14nm and marked all with a paint pen so I dont double guess myself. All internal bearings that are drenched in gear oil were prelubed with Motul Transoil (detergent free) along with the gear stack. I find it weird that the flywheel side bearing is lubed via 2T oil and the clutch side bearing is lubed with gear oil. Wonder which bearing over time is lubed better.

I'll probably get the top end on tomorrow and let the Hondabond cure for another 24th again. Of note, how did y'all square up the cylinder to the crankcase, I noticed the M7 140mm studs offer quite a bit of play with the actual bore, enough that if you carefully ported your transfers you could actually still be off a bit once you torque the whole thing down. It's almost like it needs dowels to align it.
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Well hit another roadblock today.

I was reading over my manual for this kit and it doesnt give a specific squish recommendation. It's the newer design with the fancy head and it came with one metal base gasket (0.25mm) and one copper head gasket (0.5mm). When I mocked the piston and bore up today I slapped on a 2mm+ diameter piece of solder across the wrist pin. Dry fitting both gaskets did not compress the solder at all… I removed the copper gasket and measured again. This time it was 1.5mm. Removing all gaskets net around a 1.25 overall squish. I've never mocked up a squish test and have it essentially require no gaskets to meet the normal 1-1.2mm squish band. Im more used to my Minarelli and Dio motors requiring 0.75-0.95.

I do not have a timing wheel or want to mess with port timings, I figured the Polini would be good out of the box but I'm leaning towards it needing some work. Should I just use it as is with zero gaskets and Hondabond both the base and head. Or do I get the head/bore machined down 0.25-0.5mm and run the base and head gaskets. Another thing of note is that the copper gasket doesnt even fit the circumference of the head even that great.

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bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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UTC quote
Seeing as your goal is an unfussy engine with a low-mid rpm power band, I'd keep the barrel low. Use the base gasket, leave the copper gasket off and use some red RTV on the head. The squish isn't going to be critical. At least for now.

I say "at least for now" because I built an engine almost identical to this for my smallie a few years ago. Polini 130, short 4th, matched ports, PM40 pipe, etc. Used a .5mm base gasket. Timing was 175/120-something. It was fine … actually more than fine … very rideable, good torque, forgiving and civilized. Basically "stock plus".

The Polini 130 is a Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde kit. Lifting the barrel ~2mm and decking the top completely changes its personality. Polini knows this and makes a variety of head and base gaskets available depending on what you want to build.

So again, since you're not interested in measuring timings, I'd say lose the copper head gasket, bolt it up, give it a pressure test, and if all is good, give it a go.
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate
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That's some damn nice work there. I love watching a motor come together like that, even if you had a few bumps with the seals.

And you're correct that most scooter dealers don't work on vintage bikes any more. Too much money out there overcharging for Ruckus oil changes and bling installation, I guess. Also, I sort've feel like in the U.S. at least, most vintage riders seem to do the bulk of their own work.
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Molto Verboso
'13 LML Star 200, '81 50 Special, '81 P 150 X, '87 PK 50 Nuova, '84 PK 50 S
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Molto Verboso
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Jordanaitor wrote:
Surflex 4 disc clutch w/Polini wave spring
Very interested about wave spring. When you mount engine back to scoot please tell about your feelings about clutch lever stiffness.
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Was thinking I was on the home stretch and was tidying it up to install but of course it was time to do a pressure check. I Jerry rigged this up with a airjack bladder type of dealio with a bunch of brass fittings and a 15 psi gauge. Made a block off plate for the exhaust and used a silicone hose as a coupler to the intake mani. Put it up to 6psi but it dropped off right away…. Thats not good. I sprayed it down and didnt see anything obvious until I felt a mist on my neck. Somehow underneath the tig'd repair there was a hairline crack. When I looked at the pictures I took after the repair, it wasnt there. Makes me think it started during the bearing install or after the heat of the tig job. Pretty bummed.

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There is a thick piece of rubber gasket material sandwiched in between the plate and the exhaust port.

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Purple shows a super feint tiny hairline crack, the green area is the area I was showing my welder where it's safe to build up the weld as to minimally interfere with the stator plate.

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So this is sort of weird, in this photo it seems now the crack is even worse! He built up more material on the area I stated to not lay it down but I guess it just means I have to mill away more material on the stator plate. He'll reinforce the entire area on Monday and hopefully come back with the good news. You can clearly see that the crack is longer and more pronounced now. Perhaps the heat amplified it and made it spread.

Overall not a good thing but hopefully can be salvaged or else im going to delay my build by a month and have to potentially order SIP cases Facepalm emoticon. Preparing for the worst.
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Woah that sucks.

I see the weld isn't a big pool.

Just something to think about, doing the weld repair with the bearing in place so it doesn't warp the cases in the important places.
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108 wrote:
Woah that sucks.

I see the weld isn't a big pool.

Just something to think about, doing the weld repair with the bearing in place so it doesn't warp the cases in the important places.
He just needs to add one more bead above the one he laid down and hopefully that'll be the end of that. The individual pools this guy did were much more consistent and less porous than the last guy though so thats good news.
SoCalGuy wrote:
Seeing as your goal is an unfussy engine with a low-mid rpm power band, I'd keep the barrel low. Use the base gasket, leave the copper gasket off and use some red RTV on the head. The squish isn't going to be critical. At least for now.

I say "at least for now" because I built an engine almost identical to this for my smallie a few years ago. Polini 130, short 4th, matched ports, PM40 pipe, etc. Used a .5mm base gasket. Timing was 175/120-something. It was fine … actually more than fine … very rideable, good torque, forgiving and civilized. Basically "stock plus".

The Polini 130 is a Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde kit. Lifting the barrel ~2mm and decking the top completely changes its personality. Polini knows this and makes a variety of head and base gaskets available depending on what you want to build.

So again, since you're not interested in measuring timings, I'd say lose the copper head gasket, bolt it up, give it a pressure test, and if all is good, give it a go.
Thanks for the suggestion. Sadly, even when I removed the copper head gasket and tested if it would seal without, it wouldnt. The recessed lip was made for the gasket it seems. Hondabond wasn't even squished so I decided to run the base gasket as you said and installed the copper ring. Not ideal cause my squish is probably like 2mm now but I just wanted to pressure test it and go. I think what I'll eventually do is bring the head into the machine shop and just get them to remove the recessed lip and make it completely flat. Maybe once it passes the pressure test I'll quickly remove it and send it out.
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I'm going to ask this being naive in welding. Should you be drilling a hole at and of crack to stop it from traveling further like you do in other materials? That crack looks like it may have started or propagated into that 90° curved area and wants to travel along that line.

Would a little blue machinist marking die help show the crack and how far it goes?

Can you build up that entire green area and bring it back to as flat as possible for stator plate?

Was there something going on with the backside you can't grind down weld you already have?
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Christopher_55934 wrote:
I'm going to ask this being naive in welding. Should you be drilling a hole at and of crack to stop it from traveling further like you do in other materials? That crack looks like it may have started or propagated into that 90° curved area and wants to travel along that line.

Would a little blue machinist marking die help show the crack and how far it goes?

Can you build up that entire green area and bring it back to as flat as possible for stator plate?

Was there something going on with the backside you can't grind down weld you already have?
Great suggestions, I didnt want to split the motor again so I had him do it insitu. We'll see how it goes. Im worried that grinding down the pool will open a potential can of worms so what Im going to do is just take off the material off the stator plate. If I decide to go with this Parmakit install right away it's super easy to just knock off a chunk of the plate.

Here's a few photos of the current repair, he said he attempted to prime it up to 6psi but it didn't hold still. Either he didnt pressurize it properly or theres another leak somewhere else. When I did press super hard with a rubber glove over the crack it did hold fine last week.

Lastly, I just want to make sure I have this correct, here's the Parmakit variable ignition. I've decided to install it right away as I can do the stator plate mod clearance easier than the OEM thick cast plate.

Red off stator —> Coil
Blue off stator —> Coil ground
Yellow off stator —> Lighting on scoot? (Don't I have to have this regulated) I was not given a regulator so will have to source one.
Red/white off stator —> Nothing as Im not running DC

Getting conflicted info off diagrams off SIP and other sources from a google search. I've already purchased a PX style rear brake switch that is normally open, and I have the SIP handlebar switch controls (With the slick hidden button for the SIP/Koso gauge) so that should be set up for 12v operation as well. Will need to research which sized festoon bulbs I need for 12v in the rear.

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Don't mind the red circle, he was pointing out if it was okay to cover that up.

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About to cut my losses and buy SIP EVO cases tomorrow. Facepalm emoticon

Welding shop got back to me and says he thinks he has good news (and bad news). Good news is that he thinks the main cracking issue is sorted and that whatever's leaking is somewhere else. Bad news is well that it's still leaking haha.

Since I didnt didnt disassemble before handing it to him, I didn't know he was going to go so crazy chasing it so it must've put a lot of heat in the cases. In turn it roasted the gasket/HondaBond at the transfer port right by the flywheel side. Anytime we loaded it up to 2-3psi it would whistle out of the spot. In turn, nothing leaked from the actual weld spots so I was very hopeful. I disassembled the head and bore to reseal it and began clearance-ing the Parmakit stator mount.

I think I did a pretty dang good job! Cue 2.5 hours later I poked some of the squished Hondabond and risked pressuring it up since I was so impatient. I can get it up to 4psi now but it's starting to blow out of the same transfer port gasket face area. Crying or Very sad emoticon . I then spot a new porosity leak by the upper case bolt and the fly side seal was leaking (to be expected because of the heat roasting the snot out of it). Last photo shows tiny slow bubbles forming near the case bolt halve hole.

Tomorrow Im going to throw on that spare Malossi fly side crank seal and JB weld that bastard up. I don't even care anymore, at this point if I can salvage these cases and hold 6psi constantly I'm happy until it fails one day. I just want to be able to ride it this summer. Im not going to lie, I added a set of SIP EVO cases, Egig 170 crank, bore, and intake and I was seriously thinking about it but I digress…


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@108 avatar
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This thread is starting to look familiar… ahem…!

Not throwing any names out.

Cracked cases are the worst… I have half a saga on my hands with a crack, really should update my smallie thread.
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate
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UTC quote
108 wrote:
This thread is starting to look familiar… ahem…!

Not throwing any names out.
You referring to me or yourself? Razz emoticon

Just smear some JBWeld over the leaky pores, don't worry about the stator (I've done at least as bad,) and keep making progress. Life is too short to let the perfect be the enemy of the good enough.
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chandlerman wrote:
You referring to me or yourself? Razz emoticon

Just smear some JBWeld over the leaky pores, don't worry about the stator (I've done at least as bad,) and keep making progress. Life is too short to let the perfect be the enemy of the good enough.
Speak of the devil, I just watched your mig welding cases video last night. I should just go with that mentality.

Are any of yall able to assist me on the wiring for the Parmakit? Namely red/white (I think this goes to the regulator then to the switch?) and Yellow is lighting?
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate
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UTC quote
Jordanaitor wrote:
Speak of the devil, I just watched your mig welding cases video last night. I should just go with that mentality.
Hah! My work isn't always the prettiest, and I've caused more than one purist to break out their fainting couch over the years, but I get the job done and back on the road, which is what matters to me.

At some point, though, you have to decide if you're working on these things to make them pretty or to get them on the road, because honestly, it's inevitably one or the other, but not both.
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chandlerman wrote:
You referring to me or yourself? Razz emoticon

Just smear some JBWeld over the leaky pores, don't worry about the stator (I've done at least as bad,) and keep making progress. Life is too short to let the perfect be the enemy of the good enough.
Unfortunately I'm nowhere near this Macgyver-esque engine build. Where persistence and the lack of saying no prevails…

With you on the JB weld though… for pores… it'll hold.
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Another fun fun surprise Wha? emoticon

Brand new Polini 130cc kit leaking at the seam of a casting flaw. I got the bore sealed down properly on the crank deck so that leaks done. Just have the tiny porosity one from the repair job and now this cylinder one. Emailed Racing Planet for a warranty replacement.

https://youtube.com/shorts/YpKQRNRSGBQ?feature=share
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Drama Free
79p200e 66smallstate 85pk50xl 84p125ets 63GL
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UTC quote
Sucks on many levels…. I am sorry.
Your perseverance and determination will pay off in the end.
I hate it when some projects are two steps forward and what feels like three steps back. We've all been there. Like the 90-90 rule of coding,
and I paraphrase; 'The first 90% of the project takes 90% of the time, the last 10% of the project takes 90% of the time.'
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UTC quote
Jordanaitor wrote:
Another fun fun surprise Wha? emoticon

Brand new Polini 130cc kit leaking at the seam of a casting flaw. I got the bore sealed down properly on the crank deck so that leaks done. Just have the tiny porosity one from the repair job and now this cylinder one. Emailed Racing Planet for a warranty replacement.

https://youtube.com/shorts/YpKQRNRSGBQ?feature=share
Cylinder stud holes leaking through the transfers?

Trying to picture it.
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