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Molto Verboso
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I do not know where this will go. But I can understand their idea.

The basic condition for a motorbike is that it has to be powerful, light in weight and affordable.

The today battery-technology, now pushed down our throat for cars, does not meet those requirements. Powerful enough for sure, but weighs a ton and costs a fortune.

It has been said many times before. Hydrogen is excellent for mobile applications, such as bikes or cars or trucks or ships, but the point is: where is that hydrogen going to come from. You cannot dig it or so, it has to be produced in some way or another.

Can be done with natural gas as the source. In reality most of the hydrogen used in the industry today comes from that source. But energetically it is a bit a crazy thing to do. You throw away about 50% of the energy that is in the natural gas.

Or you can make it from the hydrolysis of water. Then you need electricity. That electricity will then be from fossil fuels since renewable electricity is only a few percent of todays electricity consumption. It is a good option but only when there is plenty of renewable electricity available, and turning the excess into hydrogen is a way to store energy.
Not at all the case today.
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If water vapor is the main by-product of hydrogen energy, and water vapor is a more powerful greenhouse gas than CO2 and methane, then the whole hydrogen thing seems to be a fool's errand.
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PeterCC wrote:
....electricity will then be from fossil fuels since renewable electricity is only a few percent of todays electricity consumption. It is a good option but only when there is plenty of renewable electricity available, and turning the excess into hydrogen is a way to store energy.
I have no idea what the balance of electricity sources is in Belgium, but I have a pretty good idea what it is in the Northwest US. Our primary sources are hydropower, nuclear, windpower, and solar. We have nearly eliminated generation from coal or oil in this part of the US. Natural gas still makes a significant contribution - primarily for peaking power at times of highest demand. As you note, the ability to store renewable energy in one form or another will be a key part of our future electrical supply strategy. Pumped storage of water, battery banks, and production of hydrogen by hydrolysis are all alternatives under consideration.
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chipshot wrote:
If water vapor is the main by-product of hydrogen energy, and water vapor is a more powerful greenhouse gas than CO2 and methane, then the whole hydrogen thing seems to be a fool's errand.
It seems like water vapor can be easily condensed back into water before releasing it into the wild, no?
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giallo wrote:
It seems like water vapor can be easily condensed back into water before releasing it into the wild, no?
Using how much energy to do so?
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chipshot wrote:
Using how much energy to do so?
None. Water condenses at ambient temperatures.
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I've kept saying I want a hydrogen scoot (ignoring lack of infrastructure) assuming the hydrogen was generated using renewables.
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SteelBytes wrote:
I've kept saying I want a hydrogen scoot (ignoring lack of infrastructure) assuming the hydrogen was generated using renewables.
Yes, that's the one big catch, isn't it? Light weight, power, and long range - the perfect combo for a PTW. But hard to imagine that the necessary infrastructure to dispense hydrogen fuel will be developed unless it is used in other vehicles and powered devices besides just motorcycles and scooters.
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chipshot wrote:
If water vapor is the main by-product of hydrogen energy, and water vapor is a more powerful greenhouse gas than CO2 and methane, then the whole hydrogen thing seems to be a fool's errand.
The fool here is anyone who doesn't understand water vapor is also expelled by breathing.
Or any combustion involving hydrocarbons; ever wonder where the "hydro" part goes? No? Here's a hint: you breathe it out.
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Madison Sully wrote:
Or any combustion involving hydrocarbons; ever wonder where the "hydro" part goes? No? Here's a hint: you breathe it out.
So we just release it to roam around willy-nilly? Razz emoticon
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chipshot wrote:
If water vapor is the main by-product of hydrogen energy, and water vapor is a more powerful greenhouse gas than CO2 and methane, then the whole hydrogen thing seems to be a fool's errand.
This is a well-worn talking point of climate skeptics. And it's also utter bullshit.

From this NASA explanation:
Quote:
Some people mistakenly believe water vapor is the main driver of Earth's current warming. But increased water vapor doesn't cause global warming. Instead, it's a consequence of it. Increased water vapor in the atmosphere amplifies the warming caused by other greenhouse gases.
What's worse, the idea that water vapor is a bigger problem than CO2 is an idea promulgated by people who actually know better but have an agenda (e.g. bad actors in the energy sector).

So either you've been duped, or you have an agenda. Which is it?

Think carefully about the answer here, as there are very few people on earth that I hold in greater contempt than climate skeptics.
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jess,

Simmer down now. Climate skeptics must have something to
offer. Say it ain't so Shoeless Joe.

Bob Copeland
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Bob Copeland wrote:
Climate skeptics must have something to offer. Say it ain't so Shoeless Joe.
Climate skeptics have lots to offer. Lots of excuses, lots of industry talking points, lots of misinformation, and (most of all) lots of people who won't actually live for long enough to feel the effects of the destruction that their resistance encourages.

They can all fuck off.
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fledermaus wrote:
So we just release it to roam around willy-nilly? Razz emoticon
Yes, exactly.
That, and the other thing….
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Many predictions of the climate going to destroy this that or even life on EARTH have not come true. My problem with any govt. attempting to use citizens money to control another climate warning when all the natural function of the earth that greatly affect climate is beyond mans ability to stop more then an almost non noticeable amount. One should also look to who's pockets all the citizens money ends up in. Your opinions and may vary from mine.
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fledermaus wrote:
So we just release it to roam around willy-nilly? Razz emoticon
If that makes you anxious, try breathing into a paper bag.
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frank thomas wrote:
Many predictions of the climate going to destroy this that or even life on EARTH have not come true.
This is false. The predictions of extreme weather events are quite literally happening around us, and the global average temperature rises every year. At least one island has already been subsumed into the ocean due to sea level rise. The people who think climate change is not happening are either not paying attention or are in denial.
frank thomas wrote:
My problem with any govt. attempting to use citizens money to control another climate warning when all the natural function of the earth that greatly affect climate is beyond mans ability to stop more then an almost non noticeable amount. One should also look to who's pockets all the citizens money ends up in. Your opinions and may vary from mine.
Frank, I strongly suggest that you back away from the computer, log off of MV, and never come back. Because you are clearly the kind of climate skeptic I had in mind, that I hold in utter contempt. I no longer have any interest in humoring the people who continue to resist change while the world burns around us.
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jess wrote:
This is a well-worn talking point of climate skeptics. And it's also utter bullshit.

Embarrassed to say, I didn't know that. Thought the sources I heard it from were credible.

What's worse, the idea that water vapor is a bigger problem than CO2 is an idea promulgated by people who actually know better but have an agenda (e.g. bad actors in the energy sector).

So either you've been duped, or you have an agenda. Which is it?

Duped. No agenda here, and definitely not a climate skeptic. Quite the contrary.

very few people on earth that I hold in greater contempt than climate skeptics.

We've got that in common.
As far as hydrogen power, I've heard the net energy gain is minimal, if not negative.

I firmly believe there is no free lunch when it comes to energy. That is, no form of energy comes without negative consequences for the environment.

If that is the case, then it's a big mistake to not put more priority on minimizing our energy consumption. But that rarely gets talked about, never mind acted on. I would argue humanity--especially in the US--is closer to maximizing energy use than minimizing it.
And that is inexcusable.
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chipshot wrote:
As far as hydrogen power, I've heard the net energy gain is minimal, if not negative.
In what alternate universe? The trend is to produce hydrogen with renewable energy and this is constantly getting cheaper to do and more efficient.
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chipshot wrote:
As far as hydrogen power, I've heard the net energy gain is minimal, if not negative.
I agree, actually. Hydrogen (despite being the most abundant element in the universe) is not actually easy to acquire, and the methods of creating it on Earth use more energy than what you can get out of it. This might change with better technology, but today, Hydrogen is almost certainly net-negative.

In that light, hydrogen can be seen as an energy carrier, rather than an energy source, conceptually similar to a battery. Does that make hydrogen better? Not necessarily, but I think it's important to keep that distinction in mind when talking about hydrogen-powered vehicles.
chipshot wrote:
I firmly believe there is no free lunch when it comes to energy. That is, no form of energy comes without negative consequences for the environment.
Fusion ticks all the boxes. In my lifetime? Maybe. But I'm not counting on it. Solar has very, very few negative consequences, and quite a few positive ones. Wind and hydro are problematic, but much less so than coal. I think it's all degrees.
chipshot wrote:
If that is the case, then it's a big mistake to not put more priority on minimizing our energy consumption. But that rarely gets talked about, never mind acted on. I would argue humanity--especially in the US--is closer to maximizing energy use than minimizing it.
And that is inexcusable.
I agree that minimizing energy consumption is important, and I disagree that there is no emphasis on it. For example, right here in the US, the much-maligned light bulb efficiency standard single-handedly eliminated an entire class of devices that were better at converting electricity into heat than they were at converting electricity into light.
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giallo wrote:
In what alternate universe? The trend is to produce hydrogen with renewable energy and this is constantly getting cheaper to do and more efficient.
It's net negative simply because you need to put more energy into it than you get out of it. Yes, you can produce it with renewables, but that just hides the net-negative behind a net-positive.

That's not necessarily a deal breaker, because as I said above, hydrogen should be seen as a carrier, not an energy source. But it's still the reality for hydrogen production.
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jess wrote:
It's net negative simply because you need to put more energy into it than you get out of it. Yes, you can produce it with renewables, but that just hides the net-negative behind a net-positive.

That's not necessarily a deal breaker, because as I said above, hydrogen should be seen as a carrier, not an energy source. But it's still the reality for hydrogen production.
True if you have to put more energy in than you gain. Though that is not that much of concern if the energy used to produce hydrogen comes from the sun.

There are also several promising ways to produce hydrogen from waste, a process that then can be carbon negative, which is a win win scenario, see: https://hydrogen-central.com/carbon-negative-hydrogen-production-within-reach-hycap/
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giallo wrote:
True if you have to put more energy in than you gain. Though that is not that much of concern if the energy used to produce hydrogen comes from the sun.
I get that, and definitely think it's a step in the right direction.
giallo wrote:
There are also several promising ways to produce hydrogen from waste, a process that then can be carbon negative, which is a win win scenario, see: https://hydrogen-central.com/carbon-negative-hydrogen-production-within-reach-hycap/
I'm a big fan of waste-to-energy projects. I hope they make it to widespread commercial viability.
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jess wrote:
I'm a big fan of waste-to-energy projects. I hope they make it to widespread commercial viability.
Me too. Turning waste into energy might be one of the more important options, besides dialing back consumption, to keep this planet livable.
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Dooglas wrote:
I have no idea what the balance of electricity sources is in Belgium, but I have a pretty good idea what it is in the Northwest US. Our primary sources are hydropower, nuclear, windpower, and solar. We have nearly eliminated generation from coal or oil in this part of the US. Natural gas still makes a significant contribution - primarily for peaking power at times of highest demand. As you note, the ability to store renewable energy in one form or another will be a key part of our future electrical supply strategy. Pumped storage of water, battery banks, and production of hydrogen by hydrolysis are all alternatives under consideration.
You should look at the bigger picture, not Belgium, or Oregon.

With respect to storing renewable energy:

Batteries: I think we can forget about that. Much too expensive.

Pumped storage of water: that is OK, and with good efficiency, but where are we going to make all these lakes?

Hydrogen: not so efficient but affordable and the hydrogen can not only be stock but can also be used for mobile applications, such as ships, trucks, cars, motorcycles. Seems the best option to me. But off course first we have to reach the point where there is an excess of renewable energy, and that will not be for the near future, if ever.
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PeterCC wrote:
Batteries: I think we can forget about that. Much too expensive.
Batteries are already being used at utility scale, and battery technology continues to march onward at a steady clip. Counting out batteries at this point would be premature, to say the least.
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jess wrote:
Batteries are already being used at utility scale,
(...)
Yes they are.
What is their capacity, and what is their price.
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PeterCC wrote:
Yes they are.
What is their capacity, and what is their price.
Those are nonsensical questions. The capacity is as much or as little as a utility chooses to build out. The cost is proportional to the capacity at any given point in time, but has thus far gone down over the long term. As technology improves, I expect that trend to continue.

Further, there is a trend in the US right now toward residential battery storage (e.g. Tesla Powerwall) coupled with solar. These installations are currently popular and will likely continue to grow in numbers. This effectively becomes a de-facto distributed power storage network.
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chipshot wrote:
If water vapor is the main by-product of hydrogen energy, and water vapor is a more powerful greenhouse gas than CO2 and methane, then the whole hydrogen thing seems to be a fool's errand.
Except that when the atmosphere gets saturated...it rains. With other gases, not so much.
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Dooglas wrote:
I have no idea what the balance of electricity sources is in Belgium, but I have a pretty good idea what it is in the Northwest US. Our primary sources are hydropower, nuclear, windpower, and solar. We have nearly eliminated generation from coal or oil in this part of the US. Natural gas still makes a significant contribution - primarily for peaking power at times of highest demand. As you note, the ability to store renewable energy in one form or another will be a key part of our future electrical supply strategy. Pumped storage of water, battery banks, and production of hydrogen by hydrolysis are all alternatives under consideration.
Here you go:

https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/commodities/energy
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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jroberts86 wrote:
Those are really interesting and informative charts from LLNL. Thanks for posting.
Miguel
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For the record, I believe in climate change but I do not believe in man-caused climate change although I agree that mankind generally live like pigs and there is a lot we can do to clean up our act. Here is some science that I believe: 230 million years ago, when the trees fell in the petrified forest by the Painted Desert, North America wasn't even in the Northern Hemisphere. The climate changed regularly and unpredictably ever since and there were a couple of ice ages and mass extinctions while humans were still in the rodent stage. There may have been a few humans around when the mastodons and the sabre-tooth tigers roamed but that sure wasn't man-caused and if you asked a mastodon, he probably wouldn't blame a human. Greenland is a recent example, it used to be a nice place to live once, about the era of Viking ascendancy a thousand years or so ago. How about Krakatoa, whose 19th century eruption caused 3 years of crop failures (and pretty sunsets) in Europe. Melting glaciers have been busily doing so for 10,000 years and the wildfires everyone bleats about are regular and historic. Man does cause about 75% of those now, however.
Any politician, with his high-handed carbon taxes and his climate claptrap and his light-bulb bans cannot be believed; why believe their veracity when these are some of the bozos who can't regulate a bank or a debt-ceiling which is what they are supposed to be good at, not science. Making "climate change certainty" an ideology and a virtual church, the "Church of Climate Change and Greta" makes it very difficult to counter faith-based belief or dispute the man-caused part, but I think that humans are very much along for the ride and whether or not our filthy habits get us in the end, the planet will continue to spin away long after we are forgotten. Greeks? Romans? Egyptians? Moors? Mesopotamians? Aztecs? Ask one of them how they affected climate change.
Stop throwing your MacDonald's bags out your windows and set up more hummingbird feeders!
Cat, meet pigeons.
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Has anyone played a CD recently ?
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Oh, I thought that they were the future.

Betamax anyone ?
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Xsbank wrote:
For the record, I believe in climate change but I do not believe in man-caused climate change
You're dead wrong. I doubt I will be able to convince you of this, but I do hope that you have a long and prosperous life so that you can, one day, remember this conversation where I told you how utterly wrong you were. I hope that in that moment you realize what an incredible mistake you've made, and (indirectly) how much you've contributed to the degradation of the planet.

Did I mention that I hold climate skeptics in utter contempt? Yeah, that primarily means the people who refuse to acknowledge that our actions are contributing to climate change.
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Location: Phoenix, AZ.
UTC quote
Bill Dog wrote:
Oh, I thought that they were the future.

Betamax anyone ?
Only if it's a top-loader!
@bill_dog avatar
UTC

eeeee bip
BMW R1100RT The Problem Child Kymco Downtown 300 - I'm not the Uber Honda Cub - Scorched Earth Policy
Joined: UTC
Posts: 20657
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
 
eeeee bip
@bill_dog avatar
BMW R1100RT The Problem Child Kymco Downtown 300 - I'm not the Uber Honda Cub - Scorched Earth Policy
Joined: UTC
Posts: 20657
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
UTC quote
Clunk, Clunk, Clunk,
@znomit avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
LX190 Friday afternoon special, [s]Primavera[/s], S50, too many pushbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 10364
Location: Hermit Kingdom
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@znomit avatar
LX190 Friday afternoon special, [s]Primavera[/s], S50, too many pushbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 10364
Location: Hermit Kingdom
UTC quote
Xsbank wrote:
Here is some science that I believe: 230 million years ago, when the trees fell in the petrified forest by the Painted Desert, North America wasn't even in the Northern Hemisphere. The climate changed regularly and unpredictably ever since and there were a couple of ice ages and mass extinctions while humans were still in the rodent stage.
Yes but things have never changed as fast as they are changing now.

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