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npn wrote:
I do have a brand new battery but it hasn't been charged.
Well, I just double checked - the battery I got from scooter mercato is only 4Ah, and I don't think it would be proper.

There's another problem too, not so much related to the lighting coil - there's no electricity going to the head light bulb, which is like the only thing that should work without a battery. And yes it's the green to yellow wire that powers the headlight. So I'm back to conducting the continuity tests.

I think I've mentioned this a few (dozen) times now - this thing is fighting every step of the way - I seem to make 1 step forward, and 3 backwards!

That battery will work, but it won't last long. If it hasn't been opened, you could possibly return/exchange it. US bikes with this setup used a 6V11ah battery that is thinner to fit in the side panel of the scooters, namely the smallframes with battery box. The only 6V13ah motorcycle battery I have found is the B38-6A battery. Ama zon carries the bikemaster version of it but the picture for it is incorrect, it is the correct battery. I have ordered it.
There are other sealed, AGM, lead batteries out there of the correct capacity, meant for security systems and what not. With a regulator, I'm sure these would work just fine, but I do not think they would work to 'soak up' excess charge the way the wet-type lead-acid batteries can without overheating/failing.

As far the headlight, does your ignition switch have 3 positions? Off, 1, 2?
2 position turns the headlight on and connects the green and yellow wires in the system. Other possible problem could be the headlight bulb itself; bad contacts in the high low switch on the handlebar. Use your continuity tester to make sure the filaments in the bulb are still good and contacts are, well, making contact.

In the similar thought pool as qascooter, I think of it as more 1 step forward and 3 steps sideways. The scenic route. I get to enjoy learning and fixing stuff during the process/progress. Progress is being made; just not as fast as we would like. Reaching the goal will feel great.
6v13ah B38-6A
6v13ah B38-6A
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markosmarkos wrote:
As far the headlight, does your ignition switch have 3 positions? Off, 1, 2?
2 position turns the headlight on and connects the green and yellow wires in the system. Other possible problem could be the headlight bulb itself; bad contacts in the high low switch on the handlebar. Use your continuity tester to make sure the filaments in the bulb are still good and contacts are, well, making contact.

The green and yellow are always connected, it's the hi/lo switch that makes the difference but the headlight this way is always on

It's my stator that is messed up and I can't find one anywhere online with the 6 wires like mine
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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Maybe its an omen to switch to 12 volts with a voltage regulator.
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markosmarkos

I'm still convinced that my lightning coil is not working properly, but yet again I found another problem - the turn signal switch was shorting and somehow (don't ask how) was making the tail/brake light on. Cleaning it and rewiring it makes those lights off. Which according to the electrical diagram, makes sense. Connecting a battery (a set of 6 1.5v ones) to where the real battery is supposed to go made the tail/brake lights work.

That was with the engine off. Now, when I have the engine on, the 2 wires that would go to and charge the battery, produce anywhere from 40 to 120 volts. That doesn't seem right, does it? I'm hesitant to attach the battery because it might literally explode. Thoughs?
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npn wrote:
markosmarkos

I'm still convinced that my lightning coil is not working properly, but yet again I found another problem - the turn signal switch was shorting and somehow (don't ask how) was making the tail/brake light on. Cleaning it and rewiring it makes those lights off. Which according to the electrical diagram, makes sense. Connecting a battery (a set of 6 1.5v ones) to where the real battery is supposed to go made the tail/brake lights work.

That was with the engine off. Now, when I have the engine on, the 2 wires that would go to and charge the battery, produce anywhere from 40 to 120 volts. That doesn't seem right, does it? I'm hesitant to attach the battery because it might literally explode. Thoughs?
DC or AC? The load from battery will also lower system output.
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Christopher_55934 wrote:
DC or AC? The load from battery will also lower system output.
It should be DC by that point right? (where the cables hookup to the battery)

Well, my multimeter measures polarity too, but not in this case. So believe it's AC -- idling engine and the electricity keeps bouncing between 40 and 120 volts
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npn wrote:
It should be DC by that point right? (where the cables hookup to the battery)

Well, my multimeter measures polarity too, but not in this case. So believe it's AC -- idling engine and the electricity keeps bouncing between 40 and 120 volts
I'm going to start with just looking at that setup makes my brain hurt. An electrical engineer who designs these could tell me I'm full of sh!t. As a technician, I don't really understand it from a technology standpoint of what I've worked on. That setup to me looks like a half wave rectifier. With no regulator, smoothing capacitor or filtering in circuit. With a diode on each end and two coils you should be getting to phases or humps in picture one each as the flywheel magnet passes by. However coils are not separated by 180 degrees, so the humps or phases are fairly close together not helping ripple. I'd love to get my oscilloscope on that white battery wire to verify. As someone eluded to earlier I think battery is supposed to be absorbing some of the ripple, supplying a load to reduce peaks etc and will get cooked without a regulator.

https://www.electrical4u.com/half-wave-rectifiers/

I would add this in parallel to white wire to help save battery and light bulbs. It should clip off the rounded peaks of any signal greater than about 7 volts, 6.3 volts is about fully charged. I would have battery hooked up also, not sure that regulator will like those large peaks your seeing without battery.

https://www.treatland.tv/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=yamaha-FS1-6v-regulator&utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=cse&gclid=Cj0KCQjw0bunBhD9ARIsAAZl0E2DwGbpA3SF8QcUkzg8YPTbdMHVesB0xfxFIqIHgcRSV0vCq2RvIFoaApVHEALw_wcB


I would hook up battery and see what you get for voltage readings. It really should provide a load and reduce those peaks your seeing. It's a pretty small battery so I wouldn't run it a long time just enough to test theory about battery absorbing peaks etc.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
6 volt regulator
6 volt regulator
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My brain has been hurting for some time lol. That's why everyone here is advocating for switching to 12v. Your understanding is similar to mine. My only problem is that the voltage coming into the battery is way too high! 140 volts when the motor is idling, I mean, what would be the voltage when I rev it? I'm picturing a battery explosion...

Now, the 12v conversion - that SIP kit seems cool and all, but it's not "standard". In 5 or 10 years, it won't be supported... or who knows if it will be, and if it breaks, you're screwed. This scooter has been around for 43 years and we can find information on it and get it going. Compare that with the 5-10 years of the potentially unsupported conversion kit.
Christopher_55934 wrote:
I'm going to start with just looking at that setup makes my brain hurt. An electrical engineer who designs these could tell me I'm full of sh!t. As a technician, I don't really understand it from a technology standpoint of what I've worked on. That setup to me looks like a half wave rectifier. With no regulator, smoothing capacitor or filtering in circuit. With a diode on each end and two coils you should be getting to phases or humps in picture one each as the flywheel magnet passes by. However coils are not separated by 180 degrees, so the humps or phases are fairly close together not helping ripple. I'd love to get my oscilloscope on that white battery wire to verify. As someone eluded to earlier I think battery is supposed to be absorbing some of the ripple, supplying a load to reduce peaks etc.

https://www.electrical4u.com/half-wave-rectifiers/
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npn wrote:
My brain has been hurting for some time lol. That's why everyone here is advocating for switching to 12v. Your understanding is similar to mine. My only problem is that the voltage coming into the battery is way too high! 140 volts when the motor is idling, I mean, what would be the voltage when I rev it? I'm picturing a battery explosion...

Now, the 12v conversion - that SIP kit seems cool and all, but it's not "standard". In 5 or 10 years, it won't be supported... or who knows if it will be, and if it breaks, you're screwed. This scooter has been around for 43 years and we can find information on it and get it going. Compare that with the 5-10 years of the potentially unsupported conversion kit.
I wouldn't rev it up right away just start and idle, too start with and see what you get. I see AC peaks like that on mine, but it goes through a regulator / rectifier you don't have before going to battery.

That 6 volt regulator would be easy to add, connect yellow wire to white battery wire and it should stop any peaks from above 7 volts from getting through. It does need to be screwed to a good ground, don't just hook it and let it hang. That ground is where those peaks are being shunted to. That will provide some regulation for battery voltage. It will only crop or cut the top off a peak that is to big, otherwise it won't do anything, call it insurance.

That regulator I linked to should shunt anything AC or those peaks your seeing to ground.
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link for a reference

https://www.rexs-speedshop.com/product/universal-6-volt-ac-regulator/

Interesting read that helps explains Bajaj system also..


https://www.rexs-speedshop.com/product/universal-6-volt-ac-regulator/

This application still applies as you don't have a standard voltage regulator setup, a battery operated scooter would normally have.

6 volt AC regulator for no-battery scooters

This shows a headlight for first circuit but should still apply to your setup.

https://www.homemade-circuits.com/understanding-motorcycle-voltage/
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Christopher_55934 wrote:
They are in Europe, anything you can suggest locally or on amazon?
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I guess I should've done that earlier - check the diodes (rectifier). They are f'd up - one shows infinity (no continuity) in either direction, the other shows the same resistance/ohms both ways...

I can't even find these diodes (6FMR 10) anywhere online.

I guess now it's all pointing to 12v conversion...
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npn wrote:
I guess I should've done that earlier - check the diodes (rectifier). They are f'd up - one shows infinity (no continuity) in either direction, the other shows the same resistance/ohms both ways...

I can't even find these diodes (6FMR 10) anywhere online.

I guess now it's all pointing to 12v conversion...
Looks like 6FMR 10 means a 6 amp power diode capable of handling 40 volts working voltage RMS. I would think a 16FR10 would work fine. It's just capable of handling more current. 12FR10 should work also. Higher current carrying capacity should be fine.


Looks like this could work.
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/solid-state-inc/16FR10/14546549
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Christopher_55934 wrote:
Looks like 6FMR 10 means a 6 amp power diode capable of handling 40 volts working voltage RMS. I would think a 16FR10 would work fine. It's just capable of handling more current. 12FR10 should work also. Higher current carrying capacity should be fine. Would check physical size to make sure it fits.


Looks like this could work.
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/solid-state-inc/16FR10/14546549
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/solid-state-inc/12FR10/14547304
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npn wrote:
Now, the 12v conversion - that SIP kit seems cool and all, but it's not "standard". In 5 or 10 years, it won't be supported... or who knows if it will be, and if it breaks, you're screwed. This scooter has been around for 43 years and we can find information on it and get it going. Compare that with the 5-10 years of the potentially unsupported conversion kit.
Vape has been around for 30+ years and has an excellent reputation.
It's become a kind of go-to standard on hundreds of vintage bike renovations.

You're not going to get "real" turn signals off that old system, if that's what you'd like to have.
Vape DC. Everything off the battery.
Those wires look solid. Should be close to PNP.

I have four, so this could be "I spent the dough, why don't you?" bias
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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I hear you, but my research has shown me that Bajaj / '74 Vespa Sprint has a different wiring situation. That's why I can't find the damn stator replacement.

How do I know that I won't open a can of worms in the process of converting it to 12v?

Unless someone can convince me otherwise, I'm hesitant to spend another $500 and risking not riding it this year.

It's not just the turn signals; the only thing that works now (and I've exhausted all possibilities) is the head light, if you can call that "working" anyway.

I am looking into re-winding at least one of the 2 lightning coils, replacing the 2 diodes and probably adding a voltage regulator. On top, I probably need another/bigger battery... So believe, I'm ready to switch but...
Ray8 wrote:
Vape has been around for 30+ years and has an excellent reputation.
It's become a kind of go-to standard on hundreds of vintage bike renovations.

You're not going to get "real" turn signals off that old system, if that's what you'd like to have.
Vape DC. Everything off the battery.
Those wires look solid. Should be close to PNP.

I have four, so this could be "I spent the dough, why don't you?" bias
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I also have four Vape's. They beat every other ignition I've ever run. As much as we like to beat on SIP, they brought Vape ignitions to vintage Vespas, which was a huge thing.
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Thanks for looking into this man, I appreciate it.

It seems like you're one of the few keeping up with this thread.

What would you say about this - with the engine running and my multimeter set on AC, as soon as I touch ground (anywhere on the body), before I touch the other lead anywhere, I get reading of 100s volts. One of the lighting coils is grounded so it kinda explains it but it doesn't seem right, or does it?
Christopher_55934 wrote:
Looks like 6FMR 10 means a 6 amp power diode capable of handling 40 volts working voltage RMS. I would think a 16FR10 would work fine. It's just capable of handling more current. 12FR10 should work also. Higher current carrying capacity should be fine.


Looks like this could work.
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/solid-state-inc/16FR10/14546549
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npn wrote:
Thanks for looking into this man, I appreciate it.

It seems like you're one of the few keeping up with this thread.

What would you say about this - with the engine running and my multimeter set on AC, as soon as I touch ground (anywhere on the body), before I touch the other lead anywhere, I get reading of 100s volts. One of the lighting coils is grounded so it kinda explains it but it doesn't seem right, or does it?
If you have a single lead touching, other is an antenna, your picking up noise. You have an old school charging system and ignition system with no noise supression. That is why when some older cars drive think 1950's by an old school radio you get noise. Thats why spark plugs and or leads added a 5K ohm resistor to help with noise suppression.
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markosmarkos wrote:
That battery will work, but it won't last long. If it hasn't been opened, you could possibly return/exchange it. US bikes with this setup used a 6V11ah battery that is thinner to fit in the side panel of the scooters, namely the smallframes with battery box. The only 6V13ah motorcycle battery I have found is the B38-6A battery. Ama zon carries the bikemaster version of it but the picture for it is incorrect, it is the correct battery. I have ordered it.
There are other sealed, AGM, lead batteries out there of the correct capacity, meant for security systems and what not. With a regulator, I'm sure these would work just fine, but I do not think they would work to 'soak up' excess charge the way the wet-type lead-acid batteries can without overheating/failing.

I have studied the wiring and the diagram and am now convinced that the tail and brake lights only work if there's a battery.

Why did they work at some point couple of weeks ago off the engine only? I have no clue except that maybe there was a short somewhere that I eliminated when I redid all the grounds and leads.

I'll be receiving 2 new diodes and will be replacing the old/burnt out ones soon.

This is what I plan to do: since I have a battery already (tho very whimpy) I'll get the system going and eventually either add a second battery, or put in a more powerful one. Alternatively, there are modern voltage regulators that I might add, though this step is not exactly simple.

Now I am charging the 6v battery with a 12v charger (I've got 3 of them, but no 6v). How am I doing that? Like this:
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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I'd add one of the simple ones I linked here earlier to at least cut down on high AC voltage going to battery. Might save it's lfe.
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Now I truly believe I'm at where the last person got stuck working on this pos. Yeah it is what it is.

Set of new diodes, burnt after about 10 minutes of combined engine running time. Did these things ever work? The wiring is based on '73/74 vespa sprint, one of a kind of pos, that it's electrical system "never really worked" according to scooter west.

No wonder the last mechanic gave up and lovingly parked this thing under a tree for oh 15 years!

I've exhausted every single angle, every single lead and ground point! I am convinced that the original wiring is wrong. As soon as you connect the battery, you're miles are numbered... that's when it was brand new.

No wonder it only had 485 original miles. It was doomed from the very start. Warning... Crude language... Indian, cheap copy, f***ing POS! Who the f created the wiring? If you have a basic 12 grade degree you will see that no way the schematic would work! It's only a matter of time before the battery is completely dead due to a natural mild short circuit (that the 2 fuses will handle casually without burning) and after that without a proper (battery) load the diodes would fail. Wow! I mean wow...
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I think Chandler sums it up on page 4.

You can learn to hate Bajaj electricals after it's running.
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The wiring and electrical works fine in a Bajaj Chetak I know because I have one just like yours. Your wiring looks to be in much better condition than mine. The original 6v system not so good.

There are ways to make improvements. One that I don't have familiarity is the VAPE that has already been suggested.

I installed a BGM electronic system on my GL which includes a P200 stator, CDI, regulator and flywheel for the small taper crankshaft. Works perfectly.

After doing the GL I decided to do the same for the BAJAJ although I decided to use a large taper crankshaft so I had more options on flywheels. I'm currently using a slightly lightened P200 flywheel.

3 out of my 4 all use the same ignition which I like. Availability for spare parts makes things simple.

With the change to my Bajaj the taillight works on AC when the engine runs if battery is dead.
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I've ordered now bridge rectifiers. The good news is that the headlight is powered by a separate coil and it's somewhat stable in terms of voltage. The lighting coil that powers taillight, brake, signals and 3 mini/indicator bulbs produces up to 15 volts so a regulator is needed.

It's been brought up here already but I don't see/know how to use one as ground is not part of that circuit. I might need one for DC but haven't been able to find it in my quick search.

There are days that I'm really pissed off but I'll get to the bottom of it
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I was really hoping for a win for you dude. I feel your frustration. The whole idea of the Vape chafes me. The slickness of it. The nicheness…the boutiqueness, making it way more expensive than it should be when simple would do. Possible that SIP has to charge that kind of money just to have something like that produced in such small quantities.

One of those mom and pop auto electric places could probably fix your stator up with stuff they had lying around the shop. If such places still existed.

And as you said, the last cat who worked on it got pissed enough to leave it under a tree for a couple decades. And you are the latest fool to get your peanut buttery fingers in there and lose your mind. That's all of us really. Electrics from that era all just sucked even before they aged 30 years, then sat under a tree for 20 more. Hang in there.
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for those that chafe at the vape, there is always the solution of a px AC stator, a 3 pole regulator, and a crank that can accept the px flywheel, even on old motors.

12v ac px setup = inexpensive with good parts spares
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No man, I can't partake on a new adventure now. The px setup reqruires splitting the engine and replacing the crank plus new flywheel, stator etc...

I bought this scooter back in June and I've only put less than 5 miles on it testing it around the block. Winter is coming here and also my free/riding time is about to end.

It's this Bajaj's faith to sit around and not see the road... much.
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Would something like this not work? Sorry if it's already been covered.

https://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Complete-Stators/97709
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orwell84 wrote:
Would something like this not work? Sorry if it's already been covered.

https://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Complete-Stators/97709
Thanks for looking into this but no, mine has 6 wires, 3 coming out of the lighting (mentioned above) coil itself
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I think you have done the complete survey of possibilities at this point. I suggested the stator above because it was the closest thing I could find. I get not wanting to replace the crank.

Unless you can get your current stator rebuilt somewhere, it's likely you would have to get creative with any new stator to make it work.

I know you went through your wiring, but it's very possible there are still some issues lurking as well as potential hacks from the distant path.

When I replaced the stator on my Stella, it was not a direct match. It still won't charge a battery and run a halogen light without an occasional top up on the charger. I have gone through the electrical system many times and found surprises each time. My favorite is shorted wires melted together inside outer casings that still look new. I'm probably not done finding stuff like this and I doubt you are either. I thought about rewiring the whole thing, but that's craziness. If I find a bad circuit, I replace it nose to tail. I have a length of minder wire installed in my scooter so that the next time I find a problem, I can pull wire without removing the tank.

I go by the time/money/ass-ache calculus. Sometimes the ass ache is worth it to revive and old part or if I'm doing it just for sport or out of spite. Sometimes I just spend the money to save time and avoid frustration…especially when riding season is winding down.
OP
UTC

Hooked
1980 Bajaj
Joined: UTC
Posts: 410
Location: Chicago
 
Hooked
1980 Bajaj
Joined: UTC
Posts: 410
Location: Chicago
UTC quote
orwell84 and others, thanks for your continued support!

I have researched and located a friend who would rebuild, rewind the lightning coil and thus I'll keep the original stator. (do you know that I now have 2 extra/spare points and 3 condensers?lol plus yards of high end automotive wires and who knows what else...)

The original lightning coil is producing too much voltage but I'll eventually solve that issue. I'll replace the headlight bulb with halogen and the tail/brake bulb with led; the latter part will provide more wats/power to the signal lights and improve brightness.

That original coil and diodes wires were melted so there definitely was a short somewhere at some point.

On the positive side, I registered it today so I'll ride it for a while with headlight only!
OP
UTC

Hooked
1980 Bajaj
Joined: UTC
Posts: 410
Location: Chicago
 
Hooked
1980 Bajaj
Joined: UTC
Posts: 410
Location: Chicago
UTC quote
Instead of the 2 diodes I added this bridge rectifier and now things seem stable.

And riding I did... https://modernvespa.com/forum/post2637745#2637745
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
@christopher_55934 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3547
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Ossessionato
@christopher_55934 avatar
2007 Stella 225
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3547
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
UTC quote
What voltage is it charging battery to? Keep an eye on battery voltage if it gets to high put in a regulator so you don't boil battery. I like it go big or go home up to 1000 volts and 50 amps.
OP
UTC

Hooked
1980 Bajaj
Joined: UTC
Posts: 410
Location: Chicago
 
Hooked
1980 Bajaj
Joined: UTC
Posts: 410
Location: Chicago
UTC quote
Christopher_55934 wrote:
What voltage is it charging battery to? Keep an eye on battery voltage if it gets to high put in a regulator so you don't boil battery. I like it go big or go home up to 1000 volts and 50 amps.
Yep, that rectifier was the cheapest and next day prime delivery. The side effect is that it did lower the DC - it varies from 6 to just under 13 volts which is high. Sunday I'll be receiving a DC voltage regulator (not something easy to find/pick) but either way the battery has to be replaced.
@orwell84 avatar
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Location: northern New York
 
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@orwell84 avatar
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Location: northern New York
UTC quote
Progress for sure! Good for you for sticking with it.
@christopher_55934 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3547
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Ossessionato
@christopher_55934 avatar
2007 Stella 225
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3547
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
UTC quote
npn wrote:
Yep, that rectifier was the cheapest and next day prime delivery. The side effect is that it did lower the DC - it varies from 6 to just under 13 volts which is high. Sunday I'll be receiving a DC voltage regulator (not something easy to find/pick) but either way the battery has to be replaced.
I think you're seeing a loaded system DC voltage, closer to how it should be working. Like a dead 12 volt battery, it can read 12 volts with a meter. As soon as you load it with a light it can drop to 9.0 volts if battery is dead.
OP
UTC

Hooked
1980 Bajaj
Joined: UTC
Posts: 410
Location: Chicago
 
Hooked
1980 Bajaj
Joined: UTC
Posts: 410
Location: Chicago
UTC quote
What are these things for? I have a feeling that there part of the mirror setup...
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
OP
UTC

Hooked
1980 Bajaj
Joined: UTC
Posts: 410
Location: Chicago
 
Hooked
1980 Bajaj
Joined: UTC
Posts: 410
Location: Chicago
UTC quote
And it continues to fight...

I went to the local and reputable key store, and they couldn't cut a copy of the one for the glove box...

Where do you get them keys duplicated?
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