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considering MP3 530
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Location: Telluride, CO
 
Member
considering MP3 530
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Location: Telluride, CO
UTC quote
I've been lurking here for a bit. I have been interested in a MP3 since shortly after they became available.

I'm mostly concerned about the amount of service needed to keep one running, as European vehicles all seem to require a lot of maintenance, parts availability can be scarce, but always costly. I've read reviews that say they are fairly reliable, and owners here who have posted good luck with them, yet others seem to claim both the complexity and the electronics seem to give them fits. I live nowhere near a dealer, remote in a ski resort town, that likely there wouldn't be any experienced support close by, and everything here is expensive.

My options however seem to be limited to this one scoot. I am a wheelchair user, but I can walk a bit. I'm pretty sure I could hold up this scooter from standing on the ground when it's fairly upright, but the tilt lock feature would commonly be used at stops, though I understand not to trust it to always work. I'm not looking to commute with it, so fortunately I wouldn't have to stop all that often.

Tilt lock would be required for me to get on and off it, but other adaptive friendly features include reverse aided by the camera, auto transmission, footboard pass through and it sounds like the ergonomics have been improved as well, as comfort would dictate how long I could ride.

I haven't been on a bike since my injury, when before I was an avid dirt biker, and formerly a street biker. I'm pretty active, I ski a monoski (sitski) a hundred+++ days a year, ride a reverse 3-wheel tilting mountain ebike (Bowhead Reach) cross-country but mostly lift-assisted downhill, plus ATV as well. I'm aware of my limitations yet willing to take a hit.

I mostly want to take it through the twisty roads throughout the San Juan mountains, not really touring, but day tripping through some of the best scenery and twistiest roads in North America, right in my back yard. A bigger bike is required here as I live at 9240 feet, so I lose 28% power here due to elevation, plus it's mostly highway driving with very steep grades.

I may try to figure a way to put my chair on the back, but I could get by with a pair of collapsible trekking poles to get very short distances for a restroom or lunch break.

I wouldn't consider a non-leaning trike like a Spyder or a touring delta design, at that point I'd just get a Miata, which I probably will do at some point down the road, but for now, I'd like to get back to leaning.

While I have been following the leaning trikes for more than a decade, it just seems that they have never really taken off in the US, so the problem is not just waiting for more reliable brands to come up with something new, but then for them to also import those vehicles as well. No more Niken, or ever a Tricity, Peugeot, Qooder, or Kymco; plus another half dozen prototypes that never seem to go anywhere. Tilting Motor Works trikes with its wide stance don't seem to have the same motorcycle feel as these scooters, plus I don't really want a long haul tourer for the application I'm looking for.

I'm turning 60 this year, and feel as though I've waited long enough, and other than reliability, the Piaggio seems to check all the boxes of a bike that would allow me to get back to riding.

Thoughts? Thanks in advance for any reply...
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Molto Verboso
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1259
Location: Belgium
 
Molto Verboso
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1259
Location: Belgium
UTC quote
If you're looking for a bike with the lowest maintenance bills and the highest reliability, then the MP3 is definitely NOT that bike.

The only way to keep the maintenance bills "reasonable" is to do almost all of the work yourself, which in your case is probably not going to be a option.

These bikes are fairly maintenance intensive, with it needing a oil and filter service and headstock bearing regreasing ideally every 3K mi, a belt service every 6K mi, and a coolant service, brake flush and tilt lock flush every 2 years at the very minimum.

And there is extra required maintenance as well albeit at longer intervals such as the diff oil, spark plugs, air filter, adjust valve clearances, etc, etc etc.
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Hooked
2016 Mp3 500ie Sport
Joined: UTC
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Location: California
 
Hooked
2016 Mp3 500ie Sport
Joined: UTC
Posts: 342
Location: California
UTC quote
Check out Tilting Motor Works
https://www.tiltingmotorworks.com/

The Mp3 isn't that terrible on reliability. My 2016 gets the regular service intervals and I plan ahead for the more involved operations. To keep costs down and speed up service at the shop I always supply components and consumables myself. That way I only pay for the labor and reduce the risk of extended downtime due to missing consumables or such.

I've done two major road trips through the Sierra Nevada Mountains to 8700ft and the Trinity Alps to about 7k feet. The bike handled both trips just fine across long highway tarmac rides, narrow mountain goat trails and rough pavement.

But at those high mountain roads at 8700 ft the bike was chugging and not getting much power. I could keep up with traffic but it wasnt going to be passing anyone. Fuel burn due to the almost constant max power to keep up with traffic and take off at those altitudes was also bad.

Never once on either trip did I fear loosing the front to gravel and the bike was sold reliable.. but I also kept ahead on the schedule maintenance and do regular inspections myself.

But I'm off topic, I have a bad habit of typing too much.

Sbaert is absolutely correct in this points about service and dealer support. This is not the most reliable bike when compared to Japanese or European and some American bikes. If you are indeed far from help then a bad break means a very expensive tow to a far away dealer.

This is also not a good scooter if you have stability or leg strength issues. Its surprisingly easy to drop the bike in spite of the tilt lock. I l dropped my 2016 many times when I first got it because its top heavy and will fall if it leans past about 5 or 9 degrees while not moving. This is especially likely if it was parked on uneven or slope.

If you have the budget you should check out Tilting Motor Works. They modify Harley Davidson and Honda bikes to have a similar reverse trike 3 wheel stability. These will not topple over like an MP3. Have the stability of a CanAm Spyder. The performance of a proper big engine for those high altitudes roads.

But best of all, those Tilting Motor Works mod bikes do indeed tilt into corners just like an Mp3 and like any other bike. If you want the Mp3 stability and fun with enough power to actually do touring with much greater reliability then check them out and plan your budget.

https://www.tiltingmotorworks.com/
OP
UTC

Member
considering MP3 530
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Posts: 10
Location: Telluride, CO
 
Member
considering MP3 530
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Location: Telluride, CO
UTC quote
Thank you both for the input!

I do fluid and filter changes myself, some easier maintenance as well, but trust others for the rest.

My side to side stability is not that bad, just fore and aft is messed up as I don't have glutes. I was 5'10 before my injury, yet I'm now a couple inches shorter on my right leg. My gluteal muscles were amputated due to a severe crush injury, so I can't hold myself upright without a walker or crutches, yet holding the brakes on bike bars should work. Nerve issues make my legs slower, but likely good enough most times. Everyone has the extreme angle issue where a bike would drop, mine just may occur at a few degrees less.

I've looked at the Tilting Motor Works conversions, just a lot of bike to maybe put on a couple thousand miles a year. The newer Goldwings have DCT and reverse, so that would be my best adaptive option for TMW, plus Harleys and Indians would likely have as many issues as the Piaggio, albeit HD with a better support system. A new Wing with a TMW conversion, installation and taxes can push $50k! Extremely rare, so nearly impossible to find used.

https://www.gl1800riders.com/threads/sold-2018-honda-goldwing-tour-dct-airbag-trio-tilting-motor-works-reverse-tilting-trike.468087/#post-5822946

Reviews on the TMW bikes are that they are not as natural riding as the leaning 3 wheel scoots, due likely to a much wider wheel track, heavier bike and aftermarket engineering, though I'm sure they're still a lot of fun. I was just looking for something more nimble, wouldn't take up as much room in the garage, and as pricy as the 530s are, I could have a small fleet of them for the cost of the TMW Wing.

I grew up near the HD Milwaukee motor plant, which is why I rode BMW and Hondas back in the day! HD makes beautiful bikes, though many are more wrenching than riding. That's what I want to avoid. I don't mind some extra maintenance, just some vehicles truly are always a project.

It sounds like there's just more maintenance on a MP3 due to the complexity, plus specialized knowledge required, yet not unreliable, just not as reliable as a lot of bikes.

Power at elevation is almost always an issue here with normally aspirated vehicles. The roads are 50 mph max, and as long as I could keep up, I wouldn't mind. Hopefully it wouldn't be completely gutless in the thin air. pinheadh78, thanks for the great trip report; I haven't heard yet about someone using them on goat trails!

It's too bad these tilting 3 wheelers haven't caught on more. The inventor of TMW was always trying to get manufacturers to build them under a licensing agreement. I think Acrimoto bought the company more for the technology, than for the product itself, and they don't seem to be avidly pushing the product as much as the inventor. HD was ripe for something like this, a company that could have sold their loyal fans that one last really expensive bike, but instead they watched their market share disappear.

Maybe I might be best to continue waiting, Yamaha has big overall plans for Leaning Multi-Wheels as they call them. They've been working through all these, referring to the same diagram, and one-by-one over the years, these are coming first to prototype, then to market, and they have updated the chart with product pictures and names rather than just silhouettes. When I first saw the diagram nearly a decade ago, it was all silhouettes other than one, the smallest of the Tricities. This was considered their medium-term goal, and their first wave of LMW products. Whatever the silhouette is at the top of the diagram, might be the one worth me waiting for; Bennett's prognostication seems pretty intriguing.

https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/news/2019/february/yamaha-planning-sportier-three-wheeler
UTC

Molto Verboso
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1259
Location: Belgium
 
Molto Verboso
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1259
Location: Belgium
UTC quote
Another 3 wheel option to check out is the Yamaha Niken, especially in GT form. Serviceability is a cinch since it is essentially just a Tracer with a dual wheel front end. No exposed head stock bearings, no regular greasing of said bearings, Japanese reliability, any motorcycle shop and their grandma can service it, etc.

AND they have recently restarted production and updated it so it is completely with the times. Whether the new version 2 will catch on remains to be seen. At least it is refreshing to see they haven't given up on the concept, although they were so overstocked with the old model it took years to clear out inventory.

And finally, another 3 wheel option is the Honda NeoWing they've been teasing us with since 2015 or so and just release it.

https://www.motorcycle.com/new-model-preview/2023-yamaha-niken-gt-first-look.html
OP
UTC

Member
considering MP3 530
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Location: Telluride, CO
 
Member
considering MP3 530
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UTC quote
Guessing this is a concept sketch of that silhouette:

https://www.cycleworld.com/story/motorcycle-news/yamaha-tmax-tilting-trike/

A lot of reviewers call the TMAX the most refined maxi scooter available, and the 3-wheeler TMAX concept seems like a lower center of gravity, with double wishbone suspension, which keeps the weight lower in front, though a wider track, similar to TMW, with more stability.

TMAX: 562 cc, 2 cylinder DOHC 8 valve, 46.9 hp @ 7,500 rpm, 41.1 lb.-ft. @ 5,250 rpm
115 mph top speed
530: 44.1 hp @ 7,250 rpm, 36.8 ft-lb @ 5,250 rpm

TMAX Tech Max has frame mounted 2 cyl. engine, decent bump in power. Aluminum frame, 132 lbs lighter, so likely still substantially lighter in a 3-wheel version. Larger wheels & brakes, 4 piston front calipers. Lightweight spun forged wheels. Standard electric windshield adjust, heated grips & seat, with an intuitive screen with easy operation. LED projector beam headlights. Overall more refined with Yamaha reliability.

Missing a reverse, but maybe they will include it on the 3-wheeler. Blind spot sensors & reverse camera a bit overkill on the 530. Both have ABS & Traction control.

It doesn't seem like that far a leap, so it may not be too far off from production. The worry is that Yamaha doesn't import any of the Tricities, Niken or TMAX, & wouldn't this either, though I think a very stable 3-wheeler may have a bigger market here, as evidenced by the success of the Spyder. The biggest knock on the Niken seemed to be lack of a tilt lock.

This obviously would be much further down the line:
https://www.cycleworld.com/story/motorcycle-news/yamaha-leaning-trike-design-revealed/

If the TMAX concept wasn't out there, I'd likely just go with the MP3, but with this looming, plus Yamaha committed to the LMW, I'm thinking I may still wait. This may solve my issues for a more stable reliable platform with more power and lighter weight to aid at elevation, plus it's more refined and better equipped, with better braking for long steep descents. The big hope is that the wait is not too long and that they do import it.
OP
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Member
considering MP3 530
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Location: Telluride, CO
 
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considering MP3 530
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Location: Telluride, CO
UTC quote
Unfortunately in the States, they dropped importing the second gen Niken. Though without a tilt lock, there would be no way for me to mount it. I'm glad they are still continuing with it, even if not over here. There's not a better canyon carver out there.

Neowing looks cool, but the TMAX concept looks much more likely to be released, with Yamaha chugging away at all their LMW concepts, and so far, Honda is not in the game.

Thanks again for the insights. It got me closer to a decision, which got me to research some other bikes (hopefully) coming.
UTC

Molto Verboso
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1259
Location: Belgium
 
Molto Verboso
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1259
Location: Belgium
UTC quote
I've tried the Yamaha Tricity 300 and found that even with tilt lock engaged the bike is still wobbly vs. the Piaggio which is rock solid (stable) when engaged. The Tricity feels like sitting on a basketball when its tilt lock is engaged.

Granted, I never use the tilt lock system on my MP3 and could easily live/would prefer if the MP3 did not have the system just for the sake of saving weight and one less huge item to break.

I highly doubt the T-Max will make it to the US, since scoots are very UNcool in the States. And besides, Yamaha can barely keep up with production just to fulfill the European and Asian markets for that model. I've ridden all gens T-Max and my favorite still goes out to the 500. It seems to be bulletproof engine wise and is simple enough to own (no electronic keys, real instruments, etc,)
UTC

Hooked
2016 Mp3 500ie Sport
Joined: UTC
Posts: 342
Location: California
 
Hooked
2016 Mp3 500ie Sport
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Posts: 342
Location: California
UTC quote
If it comes down to it due to budget, requirements, and timeline to get a tilting three-wheel motorcycle style machine. The Mp3 series may still be the right motorcycle choice for you to get a tilting three wheeler this year.

You have a good understanding of motorcycles
You seem comfortable doing your own basic repairs and service
You understand the limitations of the bikes performance at altitude
You know your own physical limitations and how that will work with the MP3 systems, tilt, stability, etc.

While its not as reliable as other brands, it not going to fall apart constantly nor need constant repairs or service. But as you are far from a dealer you must be prepared with the specialized tools to do the drive-belt change and rollers replacement. There are grease zerk bolts you can get to lubricate the front-end suspension to help prevent the notch issues. The spark plugs and other stuff can also be done, but its buried behind plastic.

MP3 front fork lubrication bolt. Just buy one and do not leave it permanently installed. Systematically move the bolt from spot to spot to apply grease.
https://www.scooterwest.com/tool-for-lubricating-mp3-fork-bearings-020943y-ia.html

LED headlight upgrades discussion for reliability and performance
Upgrading 2019 MP3 500 headlights

Drive Belt replacement
Variator holding tool for CVT
https://www.scooterwest.com/piaggio-500-variator-holding-tool-toolp500v.html

Mp3 500 air filter (may still fit the 530)
https://www.scooterwest.com/piaggio-air-filter-for-mp3-and-bv-829258.html

Other parts websites
https://www.scooterwest.com/ is a great supplier
https://scooterpartsco.com/piaggio-c-108/ Does not have Mp3 530 parts (yet)

Mp3 500 /530 series parts catalog (set site to English in upper right corner)
https://www.easyparts.nl/models/Piaggio-MP3-500-530-m11537

Mp3 500 Rear Brake Pad replacement (not in English but very detailed)
Rear Wheel Removal (similar) The bike in the video is NOT an Mp3, but it gives an idea of how involved changing a rear scooter tire can be.
OP
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considering MP3 530
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Location: Telluride, CO
 
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considering MP3 530
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Thanks again for more insight! The last post should be a sticky; great summation of routine maintenance for MP3s!

It really doesn't seem like it's that much work, just got to keep on top of it. If it wasn't for this forum I probably wouldn't even consider it.
OP
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considering MP3 530
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Unfortunately we Americans often don't get the best vehicles, because too often the superficial wins out over practicality. Practical people buy used vehicles, and obviously the manufacturers cater to the new market. You can't buy station wagons here either; everything has to be a SUV. Manufacturers tune vehicles for horsepower rather than torque, as often only hp stats are reported. Manual transmissions are nearly extinct; auto transmissions sell for more money on new vehicles, and manual transmission vehicles sell for more money used.

While Scooters still have a negative connotation here, things are changing, as now the big Harleys are also viewed by younger people as uncool, as a bike for boomers and the market has gravitated towards mid-sized bikes. Electric vehicles used to be considered uncool here as well, and the Prius became a punchline. Musk knew this and it's why he focussed on a high performance coupe as the first Tesla, as the stigma had to be broken to gain acceptance in the larger market.

However, I do think we will see a TMAX 3-wheeler here, as that may be the first leaning vehicle made that truly can attract an aging and/or disabled audience, as well as capture some more from the automotive market for people uncomfortable riding cycles. It's a massive audience that has been ignored too long, and I think Yamaha is smart enough to understand that. This will be their first leaning vehicle that foregoes the heavier and top-heavy front fork design into a lighter lower center of gravity double wishbone with a wider stance. As said earlier on this post, the front end on MP3s are top-heavy and easy to fall over especially when learning.

A 3-wheel TMAX will have a greater appeal to compromised individuals as all the existing 3-wheelers may get close, but not close enough to attract the vast majority of this audience. Every leaning 3-wheeler that's ever been made, people with disabilities have inquired about their use, and most of the responses are that no, it's not really a reasonable possibility. Certainly it depends on the disability, but often, the current crop can get close, but just don't quite cut it. While TMW is the sole exception, without manufacturer release, support and test drives available, it will always stay an expensive little-known niche aftermarket device.

A TMAX 3-wheeler will be expensive; in the UK the MP3 sells for £11,500, the TMAX for £12,500, and the 3-wheel version would likely be a couple thousand more. However that is still less expensive compared to Can-Ams, Harley/Goldwing trikes, and Slingshots that make up the vast market majority of accessible 3-wheeled devices in the States. Miatas too end up as the open-air device for aging and/or disabled people. Whereas able-bodied people view 3-wheel scooters as a more expensive alternative, compromised individuals would view a stable 3-wheel leaning scooter as both a more compelling vehicle, and the LESS expensive alternative.

Hopefully Yamaha will understand the appeal that a more stable cycle will bring, and understand that they have a captive audience that has no other acceptable leaning options, (other than a modified aftermarket option that costs three times the price). Another advantage of an aging audience is urgency. While in the past I usually allow others to take the new depreciation hit and buy used a few years later, aging people know that they have a window that is rapidly closing, and often are the people that can afford to buy something, but can't afford to wait.

Worldwide, a leaning TMAX 3-wheeler will be a massive success as it will be a good option for many, and the only option for many others. Just like Tesla, Yamaha has used a halo vehicle to sell more practical vehicles to a larger audience down the road. The Niken has established that leaning 3-wheels are indeed cool, and in the US, that will help them sell the TMAX 3-wheeler.

As for me, I believe it's worth waiting another season for the TMAX, as it will likely be my more reasonable option, and this season I will continue my motorsports focus on the trails on my Yamaha Grizzly (ATV), though there too, I wish there was a leaning option…
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Hooked
2019 MP3 500 Sport
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Location: California
 
Hooked
2019 MP3 500 Sport
Joined: UTC
Posts: 277
Location: California
UTC quote
I actually gets lots of questions and compliments about my MP3. Never get any on my Honda NC750X DCT (which I can whole-heartedly recommend).

Yes, the *official* service network is very spotty in the US. But right as I got my MP3 in 2020, I basically bribed a very good local mechanic (just 2 miles off my house) to do service for the MP3. I recommend anyone buying a bike finds a trusted independent mechanic anyhow. It is working real well, and it seems with that level of "love" the MP3 is actually pretty reliable. In 10k miles, the only issue I had was the seat lock getting very lose, but it was easy to repair and hasn't happened again. Also the bike used to go through rear tires rather quickly, but it seems I have adjusted my riding and the last tire set is lasting the way I'd expect. I should also say that I don't do a lot of work on my bikes and I am not apologetic at all - I am too busy to spend additional hours wrench-monkeying when I can just pay someone I trust to make a better job, with better tools. I have taken the bodywork off it to change the lightbulb, and can't claim it was an experience I enjoyed...

The MP3 is built on tried, proven and (other than the clever tilting front) rugged tech. Not manufactured to the strictest tolerances, but quite serviceable and fixable. Fast and sporty it most certainly is not, compared with other motorcycles. Fun and very practical it most certainly is.

I wish they'd go for a more advanced system than belt-driven, I am not sure a 600lbs motorcycle is best served by that final drive technology. I had hoped the follow-up model would have made a change there. A 2 cyl engine would also be nice - the current engine is pretty indestructible though, which is a Vespa hallmark: I have a 20 year old Vespa parked at my sister's that gets minimal maintenance and still goes strong despite the abuse it has been subjected to with my sister and her teenage kids being allowed to ride it when I am not in town (I think they just hose it down before I arrive).

I would not look at the MP3 with the same eyes I use on other motorcycles, it is just a very different value proposition, which I totally love because in *complements* my other bikes perfectly.
OP
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Member
considering MP3 530
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Location: Telluride, CO
 
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considering MP3 530
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Location: Telluride, CO
UTC quote
Not that I know personally about the MP3s toothed drive belt, though replacement interval is listed at 6,000 mi, and pinheadh78 posted a replacement video and a link for the replacement tool above.

Harley uses drive belts on most of their vehicles, and they are regularly heavily loaded for touring. The belt wouldn't concern me; far heavier vehicles use belts. Some drive belts are kevlar and made to last 100,000 miles and are considered a lifetime belt.

While shaft drives are zero maintenance, they are heavy, expensive and rob power.

A chain requires cleaning and lubrication every hundred miles or so, while other than changing the belt, there is no regular maintenance on a belt. If you'd rather not do your own maintenance, a drive belt is a great choice, as you don't have to maintain it between mechanics visits, plus it's less noisy and messy.

Chains have to replaced as well, and sometimes they wear the sprockets and those have to be replaced too. Belts are much less likely to wear the sprockets.

Without having personal experience on the vehicle, I think a drive belt makes the most sense for an MP3. I can see where some may prefer a more robust belt with extended service intervals.
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