Modern Vespa

I'm new to the Vespa world, and I bought this Vespa recently. I was told it is an original 64 and had an upgraded LML motor in it (whatever that means), however I'm a little confused as the frame numbers and the engine numbers seem to match.

How can the numbers match if the motor has changed?

I just want to know to make sure I put the right oil in it. It runs well so doesn't bother me either way. The bike looks vintage so would say the bike is genuinely a 64.

Frame: VBB2T 203650
Engine: VBB2M 203650

Any help identifying the bike and motor would be very much appreciated.

Thanks,
Simon

You are correct that the serial numbers shouldn't match. Those numbers didn't match when scooters were brand new.

Those numbers are also restamps on frame, not original numbers and asterisks should be a star according to my scooters.

they're not supposed to match, so right off somebody is fudging the numbers.

LML's are just Indian built replacement motors, nothing too suspect about that. tons of people install them in place of lost or lost cause motors.

I can see the late model Bajaj leg shield glove box in the frame, so that's interesting.

let's see some more pictures of it.

ETA: ohh... I'm getting some serous dan motors, meets SEA with a little "somebody half ass knew what they were doing" vibes. interesting.

Thanks for the replies.

Is there something in particular that would be helpful to have a photo of?

the frame is Bajaj for sure. round tails stopped in '62 and Indian production continued well into the 70's, which would give us the 10" fork & wheel up front.

is the switch on the column just a lock or is it also an ignition on switch?

have a look at your rear wheel, I think it's on backwards.

Thanks greasy. Seems like I have a lot to learn.

What's a Bajaj?

I don't have a battery in it right now, so I'm actually not sure if I ever needed to have the key in it to start it.. will check tomorrow.

You mean the tire or the whole wheel?

So we think it's like an original 60 ish frame and a LML motor… but we don't know what type?

Bajaj built Vespas under license in India, beginning with the VBB. Shortly after they produced the Bajaj 150... same same generally but details changed.
Not sure when speedos changed - you have the 'clamshell' type where other Bajaj's often had the "volcano" style.
So whether yours is a Bajaj-built Vespa VBB, or a Bajaj 150, is probably a bit of a moot point.

Check out this for Indian sellers for interest - https://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p4432023.m570.l1313&_nkw=bajaj+headset&_sacat=0

LML also made Vespas under license (don't think concurrently with Bajaj) and supplied oem parts to Piaggio. After Piaggio stopped production of the PX in around 2007(?), LML ramped up and sold their "NV" version of the PX into Europe where they did well, although there's a story in that too of course.

Your LML motor was made in India, they're generally a reliable engine as long as it wasn't in the period where cranks destroyed themselves. For whatever reason, it's something heard about more often in the US than here or the UK.

It could be a reed or rotary intake, either of which tend to be pretty good. If you want to find out about that, have a look under the lower (aluminium) half of the carb box. Either the box is bolted down with just a gasket to the cases (rotary), or you'll see what looks like about an 8mm thick plate between the case and carb box. That's a reed block.

The exhaust looks a bit like a [redacted] one, as do the stickers and the wheel bling. They were a Vietnamese company that made a small amount half-reasonable stuff, but their sales of whole scooters was by and large pretty dodge.
You'd probably find it ran better throughout the rev range if you replaced it with a modern box exhaust such as a SIP Road or Polini Box.

Bajaj built vespas under license in India starting in the the mid(?) 60's, and when the license wasn't renewed in the 70's, they just kept right on building them.

so basically, they built that frame from the early 70's until I want to say the early 80's when vespa returned to the market, maybe even later.

more than likely, that frame is 70's. but with the phony numbers, who knows.

LML built a lot of flavors of 125/150, but that seems to be a later version with the external pick up/trigger and electric start. they're okay motors, some suffered from runs of bad crank shafts (tolerances too tight, and the bearings give up the ghost), but for the most part they're an acceptable piece.

anyway, the whole rim appears to be on backward. check it out, should be the same as the front with the deep side in.

also, your floor board looks like it's pretty beat up. can you shoot some pics of that right where the center stand mounts? top and bottom?

here's some reading for you:
http://www.thevespawizard.com.au/Asian%20Imports.htm
Things to Consider before Buying a Vintage Vespa
http://scooterlounge.com/vespa/buyers-guide/asian-restoration.shtml
http://vespaguide.com/?p=895
http://scooterlounge.com/vespa/buyers-guide/index.shtml
https://baritaliaclassics.com/___tech_08.html

Two things,
-That glovebox is off of a 2002 4 stroke Baja Chetak.
-That Halcyon Stadium mirror is the highest quality legshield mirror that has ever been produced.

30 weight non detergent motor oil in your gearbox, and good quality SYNTHETIC 2T oil mixed 2% w/ your gas. Synthetic so you don't get carbon build up in your muffler and piston/cylinder head.



Interesting bike... Somebody sure went to a lot of trouble to match numbers here and I don't think either are legit. As long as you have a good plate & title, I wouldn't worry about it, and just move on with your nice running motor. I have an LML reed valve motor in my main ride and I love it for the easy starting and reliable power on tap.


Frame needs to be stars around the VIN as mentioned, not asterisks.
,

Real Vespa engine serial number w/ Piaggio shield preceding the model number.

Nice pictures AusSimon, do enjoy your stylish scooter...and that's a very luxurious garage you have there!

Hey sorry its been a while since i replied. I tried to take out the fuel tank to clean it with vinegar, a lot of surface rust in there, and the fuel hose had hardened so much it broke off the outlet on the fuel peacock/tap. Very frustrating! had to order a new one but wont be here for probably a couple weeks. I got a high flow one... not sure if that will make any difference.

v oodoo
Thanks for those photos and oil recommendations, very clear.
Yeah its definitely a strange one, but i do love it the way it is, so doesn't bother me at all. It is not registered but it was as is in 2010, so hopefully i can get it re-registered pretty easily.

whodatschrome
Good to know about the glove box, its nice to actually have an understanding about what year, place the parts come from. i actually love it. so handy yo have a spce to put things in.


greasy125
This is very helpful thank you.
Will definitely look into that wheel...
definitly going to go through those resources today, so thanks for those, and here are some photos of the floor.

Ginch
Awesome to see a fellow Aussie on here. I have attached a photo (as best I could) of where the carb meets the motor, i think it has the 8mm steel plate, so it would be a reed box? if you can see enough to confirm that would be great.

I noted yesterday that the muffler says PX125 on it (see photos)... That's confusing, is it for 125cc motor? The more I look into this bike the more confused I become... is it possible the motor is actually a 125cc?

I saw those SIP Road systems yesterday when ordering a new fuel tap, they look really well built. but there were SO many, I had no idea what I was looking at.

Simon - yes that's the reed block, like this one here - https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/reed-valve-block-lml_40311000

I imagine that LML started to build reed-valve motors for cost reduction (and possibly simpler repairs) as the previous rotary valve system required machining to fairly close tolerances.

It means your have the "5 port" LML cylinder as well which was a development of the original 150 cylinder. It's probably more powerful than the Piaggio made cylinders, but only just. In India they designed often for frugal fuel use more than power.

The exhaust is not a [redacted] as I thought but a JL, a pretty well- respected Czechoslovakian exhaust producer. The "PX125" marking means that it's made for 125/150 motors (the 200 motor has a different exhaust stub location). The model is a RZ Evo.
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/racing-exhaust-rz-evo-2000_25000000?q=JL%20rz%20evo
Although box exhausts like the SIP Road are catching up, a proper expansion chamber like your JL has the potential to produce more peak power. Sometimes it does this at the expense of low rpm torque however. It'll be interesting to see what it goes like.

When you remove the rear wheel you can remove the bolt through the bracket, leaving the exhaust stub in place. You should be able to twist the exhaust down and out of the way then.

I should have mentioned GPS Imports to you. They carry a ton of Vespa parts and mostly will get them to you within a day or two. They famously have the worst website ever, but if you persevere you might find exactly what you need.
http://www.gpsimports.com.au/

Whereabouts are you from?

So good to have finally fully identified the motor, that will help a lot in future for.. well everything. Thank you so much for your help with that.

Oh I actually found GPS! and was going to order from them, but I also needed the long reach tool to replace the Fuel Petcock, which they didn't have, and I needed a replacement tail light lens, but they only had the entire housing for like over $100. So decided to get it all at once from SIP's. it cost me almost more in postage than parts! and im sure ill get stung for import taxes too.

GPS do seem like a really good service though. Will go through them when I can.

Happy to know the current exhaust setup is ok, didn't fancy spending more than i needed too. Not sure what you mean about removing the bolt to face the exhaust out of my way? you mean just to help remove the wheel?

Cant wait to see how it goes. I actually have ridden it before, many years ago before i bought it, and remember thinking, this thing goes real hard for a 150. I just did and oil change, what came out was not OK, black, ill put a new fuel filter on with the cleaned fuel tank, cleaning up that carb tonight and need to research spark plugs, maybe replace that too. (any thoughts on that).
It should go great guns after all that.

I'm just in Sydney, for now. Just moved back from 10 years in Thailand (where i fell in love with scooters) and Canada. Thinking about maybe coming down to Melbourne.. probably Brunswick area if i do. but that wont be fore a couple months now.

you got photos of your vespy somewhere i can see?

Si

The bracket in the picture at the bottom is the one you undo to let it hang down. Pretty obvious once you have a look.

I wonder if other things have been done to it to warrant the spendy exhaust?
When you clean up the carb, have a look to see what size it is... it's marked in that oval at the top left. And check the brand as well. This one is a Spaco made under license from Dellorto. And have a look to see whether the cylinder is cast iron or aluminium.



You'll only pay import tax if your order is over $1000AU, so you'll be fine on that score. The other places to buy are Scooter-Center in Germany (slightly cheaper faster shipping options but not quite the range as SIP, LTH (Lambretta Teile) also in Germany - they will get stuff they don't stock from SIP or Scooter-Center and send it in one order to save postage.

Spark plug is NGK B8HS, or any variation on that but not an HS (longer reach).

I'm in Ballarat but do get to Melbourne to ride with friends. Not sure if you'll be able to see the pictures here? Mine's the bright green Super. https://www.facebook.com/il.ginchi/photos_of

But why do I want to drop the exhaust down??

The previous owner mentioned that he remembers perhaps changing out the carb, because it was just eating too much fuel...

here is a picture of the Carby thats fitted...

i ended up canceling the order with SIP, they tried to stick me for another $50 in shipping, the shipping was going to be more than the items i purchased! I ordered what i could from GPS, ill have to find one of those special wrenches for the fuel tap somewhere...

I got the B7HS, i tried to also get a colder running plug like the 8 or nine, but they didn't have either at my repco

Unfortunatly i cant asee any pictures. If i am ever down in Melbourne ill definitely have to his you up. Would be awesome to ride in vespa convoy.

1- you'll want to drop the exhaust to flip the wheel right way around.
2- is that a 20 or a 26 on the carb?
3- because it's an LML variant, it could run a short plug (HS) or the long reach plug (ES) depending on the cylinder
4- the zooty exhaust (and if that carb is a 26) may indicate an aftermarket top end kit. pull the shroud off and see if you can find any markings. also, this will help determine what plug it would need.

1. Oh ok got it.. finally
2. Its a 20, and outside the circle it says D.
3. The old plug was a short plug, so I stuck with that...
4. I believe it had a 26mm carb, but the previous owner switched it, because of crazy fuel guzzling. Ill have to take the entire Carby off to see if there is work done to the top end?

you'll want to get the numbers off the brass bits in that carb to make sure it's jetted appropriately - post them up here.

here's some info on the carbs:
Wiki [D] Guide: SI Jetting Chart + How to Tune an SI Carb

Restamping frames & engines to match this well must be very tempting to some enterprising ppl...



Except for all the dead giveaways, who would know?

nothing wrong with a 20/20

no need to pull the carb to check the top end, you just need to pull the cylinder shroud. it's the black plastic thingy.

how'd the plug that came out look? also, to john's note, I'd at least pull the jets out of the carb and see what you've got to insure it's at least close to what it should be operating wise.

Thanks guys so much. Oh, easy, will do today. Will do this once i get her up and running and can ride it to a proper repair shop, get some professional eye on it.

Here is a picture of the old plug. look ok?

Quick question, I got both of these fuel taps, thats all that was available. which of the two would you use?
The previous one was this one (i broke it):
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/fuel-tap_14465000

The two new ones are these two:
http://www.gpsimports.com.au/products-details.php?productId=9520&search=product&productName=fuel+tap
and
http://www.gpsimports.com.au/products-details.php?productId=7815&search=product&productName=fuel+tap

Get the tap with the plastic screen, no need for the glass bowl type. When you replace the hose, it should be no longer than 24 inches long. The shorter the better, but too short it makes it very difficult to get the tank out.

You're about 13 seconds away from checking the jets, they're these here in your picture. The link SDJohn posted shows you which bit is which and how to read them.

Hey guys, sorry for disappearing. Had a hell of a day trying to get things done so i can ride this bad boy!

Had to drive an hour for a mechanic to do the bolt on the petcock. On a positive note i met Sandy from Scooter Meccanica, absolute legend, sickest vinatge collection too. He dropped everything to help me get it done. I think I found my regular service guy

Also the vinegar wash inside the tank was not good enough, still so much rust. So i had to buy a KBS Fuel Tank Rescue Kit. I did the initial wash (already much better) now I am going to use the rust remover... I think ill skip on the actual re-sealer however, because i would have to remove the petcock for that... and it just looks dodgy.

Ginch Oh, i thought those screw were adjustment screws so was afraid to mess with them! info below. looks like the main jet is stock... the idle jet i didn't really see in the table in the guide?

Thank for the advice on the petcock, i went with the non glass bowl one. good tip on the hose length too, ill try for 23" just because Im an over achiever

Main Jet:
Air corrector: 160
Mixer: B3
Main Jet: 102

Idle Jet: 42

I also took the shroud off, but didn't find any marking at all what so ever? perhaps i am looking in the wrong place? Photos attached.

Late to the party here. My bodge may be a '62 Indian-made VBA. Or VBA clone. Or something else. Who knows?

The frame stamp has a shape that resembles an asterisk, definitely not a star. But it's a single stamp with a distinct shape... quite different from the matching numbers above.

If it helps. For what it's worth.

Hard to tell from that but probably the stock LML cylinder. Which is by no means a bad thing, possibly not the greatest match for that exhaust but there you go.

There are cheaper options than buying a sealer kit. And 10 times out of 10 i would choose to buy a brand new tank over installing a tank sealer.

Good call, leave the sealer out and keep it full of 2% premix when you leave it for a while to avoid water condensation when temp goes up & down. Interesting... What happens when you run the VIN?

Very interesting, thank you for sharing that. Thanks Ginch for all your help. i actually feel that the current muffler is way too loud, it goes like a little rocket but just so loud, for such a little bike. If i can get one of those sip boxes on sale, i would probably move over to one of those. So glad to hear you guys say that, and even more glad i didn't use it. After using the KBS degreaser and the rust remover, it just looked so good. i swooshed some oil around inside the top of the tank and ordered a new seal for where you put the fuel in so its air tight. I cant believe i never thought of that... I actually ran the plate through the Australia DMV system and got the below. It looks like it was registered as a 63 piaggio. With the Vin number that is on the chassie/motor (i only see the last 4 digits).


Anyway, i got the bike running. took it for a cheeky spin around the suburbs. SO MUCH FUN to ride. great little bike, everything seems tight, and functions well. I could maybe do with some new tires... otherwise super happy.

Here is a video of it running:
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0UJtdOXmGq68BE;979054CD-BA6A-4144-A6FE-4A70265796CB

I don't know, I haven't had to yet. When I bought it, I transferred the registration, and no one looked at the scoot. But I moved CT where a VIN check is required, so I'll find out in the next few months.

You don't have to wait and you may save yourself some headaches if you check now, no one but you will know (unless maybe if it WAS reported stolen, I have no experience there). Have a look here on where and how: VIN search, are you buying a stolen Vespa?

It comes up as not stolen. But that penultimate number could be an emoji, so who knows? Anyway, we'll see what happens when the DMV looks at it sometime between now and April.

Good news, don't get caught!

Glad you found Sandy, I was going to suggest him but forgot.

You could sell the JL and buy a SIP Road or Polini Box. Most of the expansion chambers can have the muffler bit repacked but often makes little difference. Not that the box exhausts are stealthy.

it can be challenging to get a muffler that suits because you can almost never hear before you buy.

I would really like something quieter than this. it like will wake up the whole neighbourhood.

Any thoughts on what i may be able to sell a scooter like this for? Just like real ball park?

The two I suggested are about as quiet as a stock one or a touch more. You're always going to know it's a two stroke.

Not really, I don't look in case there's one I can't live without.

This is I am sure why the rear wheel was on backwards. It was 120 wide!

I am guessing it maybe gave him a little extra room having it backwards?

This tyre was VERY difficult to get out.

maybe about what you paid for it, but more than likely less. unless you over paid for it, in which case then a lot less than what you paid for it.

without knowing much of anything about it and without knowing the market where you're at, it's tough to say. it's pretty, and some people buy stuff cuz it's pretty.

it's got what we're pretty sure is a reed inducted LML and a JL pipe, so I'd say it's worth at least 500 clams-- US clams, that is.

how's the swing arm of the motor look? can you measure the width?

I have, um, questions...

Hey all,

I know it's been a while since i posted this, but just so you know, I ended up sticking new tubeless wheels and tyres on this bike (moved the washer on the engine mount), put on a new molessi exhaust and I got it registered. Rode it for a few weeks, it ran SO much better with the tubeless tyres and looked better with the all black wheels. Also ran smoother with the toned down exhaust.

I then sold it for $4,900. With 3rd party, rego costs, I would be lucky if I have broken even, but was a super fun project.

Thank you everyone so very much for all your support and help, I am really grateful and could not have done it without you. So nice to know there are such awesome communities like you guys out there.

Until the next project.

Cheers,
Simon

did you disclose the origins of the bike and the "modifications" that were done to the motor to the new owner?