Modern Vespa

Looking at a very strong build for a European adventure next summer. I'll be with pillion and luggage for three weeks. The end result needs to be capable of some long stretches of French/German/Italian motorways at constant 65mph+ and some steep, twisty hill climbs.

I've got a good idea of what the build and most of the components look like for touring, but my indecision ahead of shopping for parts is the casing. Choices are:

- One of two Piaggio cases (excellent 1987 EFL and mint 2001 elestart). Originality and keeping the cost down are the obvious reasons to go here.
- The Pinasco Master 2.0 has the chunky T5 bearing on the flyside, but I keep reading about quality issues and that I'm limited on crank choices.
- The Malossi V-One looks V-lovely, but it uses the weaker PX flyside bearing.
- VR-One - not an option as I don't want the induction/reed noise.
- Pinasco 251 - too proprietary
- BFA - too expensive

If I'm heading for ~25 HP with loads of pull, bullet proof longevity and lengthy service intervals, how important is that flyside bearing and the other strengthening that you get with either Malossi or Pinasco cases? Are there generally accepted power levels and riding styles where the weak points in the Piaggio cases are exposed?

Do I just buy an Ninja 1000SX or NT1100?

I dunno about cases, except that you need to use the ones that when you break down you will be able to use LOCALLY AVAILABLE spares for, rather than losing a week or so waiting for parts ex Overseas Suppliers.

If you were asking about GEARING SETUP, I may have a few suggestions.

Good call re: spare parts. I'd like to think that good build decisions would negate the need to replace 'exotic' parts at the roadside, but you can never build for 100% reliability. I know you have experience with those long tours/rides in Oz .

Gearing: I have a good idea what I need here. My current Pinasco 225 has been an incredible motor since I first built it in 2014, but the tall gearing did let me down a bit when climbing Spanish mountains in 2017. Similar gearing, but with more power in all the right places is where I want to be.

The VR-One is the only one. Induction noise can be hidden and bellows to frame hides most of it.
Reeds have more mid torque.
These are high quality cases and use the T5 bearing.

Could use EFL cases ported for reed but will be weak around the primary and will rattle all the bearings loose until the cases crack. Cheap option until the rebuild though.

Cheers for the steer. I was aware that VR-One takes the stronger bearing, but the reed noise on my MHR 221 build worries me for relaxed cruising through quite villages! If reed is the way forward, it would be VR-One, as I wouldn't want to de-rotary a perfectly good P200 motor . In terms of cc:, this will definitely be 244/252, and I'm following this thread with interest: The VMC 244 is...almost...here

I'm hoping to build a bullet proof touring engine at some point and bought a VR-1. My thinking was the reed valve and use of a side draught carb would give me more flexibility and possibilities to dial it in. The case reinforcement and use of the larger fly slide bearing also figured in. Quality is reported to be better than Pinasco and it doesn't require the use of proprietary parts. It also came with a decent manifold and reed block.

Reliability, longevity and ease of maintenance on the road are my primary goals for a long distance touring engine. Speed and performance are less important.

Cheers Orwell. Agreed, reliability and longevity all the way, but it does need to have sufficient power to carry two people + luggage at a safe speed, which means staying ahead of trucks and being able to overtake on the motorways of Europe. Trucks are limited to 56mph in the UK, but in Europe they tend to run at 60mph/100kmph. If they come up behind you and put you under pressure, it can be quite nerve wracking, particularly for my wife at the back!!

Losing the convenience of autolube to reed induction doesn't sit well with me, given the intended use case. I was hoping to reach my objective with an SI26. If that won't get me to 25 hp, then I guess a side draught carb + pre-mix will be required, and this may lead me to reed induction, whether I like it or not.

Maybe you can reach your intended HP target with:

V-1 case,
26/26 carb
VMC-244 kit

I wonder if this would get you there. I'm curious if the new VMC-244 kit allows use of auto lube?

I don't see why not. I am setting up two of these motors.

My experience and expertise are too limited to give any advice about meeting your power requirements for a Vespa engine, but I will definitely be following along with your build as my goals are very similar. The situation you mention…a tractor trailer bearing down on you was one of my main considerations when building my VW bus engine. It is a reliable and close to stock 60mph plodder. It has some performance oriented mods that will make it go much faster, but it's not sustainable for long distance cruising due to the limitations of the engine's design. It did great during my last trip when a semi was bearing down on me on a dark 2 lane highway. 15 minutes of cruising at 70mph and low down torque for hill climbing gave me the space I needed to resume plodding along in peace. Slower speeds will get you there in almost the same amount of time as faster speeds if you are able to rely on your engine maintaining them mile after mile, day after day. Comparing 90kph vs 115kph over a day of riding…it's not such a huge difference in term of how far you get.

I would imagine there are many engine combos that would meet your needs. After all, many long distance rides have been completed with fairly stock engines.

I've toured 1200 miles in Spain with my Pinasco 225 motor. It was/is still a great motor and did a sterling job, but those steep hill climbs and mile munching on Spanish motorways, sometimes two hours between fuel stops really needed something more with two people on board, plus luggage front and rear. Weight, the tall gearing (24/63) and the added wind resistance left it lacking at times. I estimate 17/18 hp for that engine, hence the need (I think) to make 24/25 hp this time round. I don't think a stock(ish) PX200 would cut the mustard.

In my mind, it has to be 244cc (60 stroke), maybe even 252cc (62 stroke). Not sure that Malossi Sport will be enough/appropriate. Quattrini has a good track record but the VMC is too new to judge. I could build it and leave the cylinder kit decision to the end, to see how the VMC proves itself for other people, but then I'd need to modify the case halves just in case. Quattrini seems to be the path of least resistance, albeit more costly.

It really is just a matter of choosing the right engine casing for the job. Cylinder, carb and exhaust combo will determine the power outcome, and of course the gearbox setup is vital too.

I want to watch the build process for these!

Gick, what power output are you anticipating and what's your view on the flyside needle bearing in a touring motor with 24/25 hp? I know it will be good until it isn't, but I'm trying to build a motor that won't need major surgery until it needs a replacement cruciform or a clutch side seal.

If I may blaspheme on NSM...

A good shout Ray, but I feel that a GTS300 would be neither here nor there. My passion is for 2 stroke Vespas, but I'm also partial to a four cylinder 1000cc motor (2 cylinders in the case of an NT1100).

The GTS300 incidentally was first choice for a new breed of criminal in central London a few years ago. They were being stolen and used in raids on jewellers and other high end stores due to their speed and agility. Insurance premiums reflected this trend and some companies refused to cover them!

I'd just buy a full sized bike you can put hard bags on etc. I find it much more comfortable on the 5000 mile trips I take when touring. A windshield to help with comfort, better gas mileage than my scooter just to name a few.

My O tuned P200 has a 26/26 and autolube. It will do 70mph uphill, 2 up. I guess it's over 20bhp but under 25bhp. Really happy with it. The carb runs factory smooth (as you'd expect) but is at it's limit though. If I were to put a high power kit on it, I wouldn't be able to get it any richer without it bogging all the way through the first half throttle. Low 20s bhp is enough but more is easily available with non autolube.

My friend Kostas (and parts supplier) is a long distance champ. Each year he visits different countries along with his wife. This year they traveled to Georgia and Turkey. A total of 4700Kms in 17 days. He runs a Malossi Sport on V-One cases, SIP 60 crank (new wedge type), a SIP Road 3 and a SI26 with the autolube connected. I think he's still on stock gearing. He used to run on 11" rims but whatever tire he tested disintegrated after 2k Kms. This year he went back to the proven K47 on 10" rims...

He's riding constantly at 100Km/h - 115Km/s...

He never had engine failures (only tires when he was on the 11" rims and two rear shocks)...

And his workhorse...

Lol. I'm way out of my depth in responding to your question, but I am happy to read along and learn what I can. Can't wait to see what you end up building. Cheers!

Either of the Piaggio cases will do it - as Jack and many others including yourself have shown. Before the V One cases you wouldn't have mentioned the flywheel side bearing and simply kept an eye on it like your Pinasco tourer.

So it comes down to how important on your scale is autolube? If that's the only way to keep the autolube then the only advantage the V Ones have over Piaggio is a bit more meat at the case mouth - and of course the nice allen screw closing. And being 30 or so years newer doesn't hurt.

I really want the Pinasco cases to be a good thing but with the quality and proprietary issues you just can't afford to go there.

Unfortunately not super useful, but I ran the pinasco 1.0 crankcases for 3 years when it was first released. Can't say they had any problems.

Reinforced in the right places, seems pretty robust. Given the chance, I'd reuse them.

Unfortunately on the shelf at the moment.

Wise words as usual Michael. My EFL/Pinasco motor has no signs of damage or stress after 10 years of being a 225, but I worry that an extra 35-40% power could be the straw that exposes the inherent weaknesses. Maybe the V-One is the answer, despite the flyside bearing. I'm thinking that a good choice of crank and flywheel will go some way towards extending the bearing's life.

Yes it can always happen I guess. I suppose while you use the Malossi ones, the mint case will be going up in value?
Anyway you can mostly see where they have strengthened the Malossi cases which is nice. Hopefully in areas like the layshaft mounting on the clutch side it's been beefed up as well. I didn't have another case to compare.

I do wish there was some sort of heavy-duty bearing for the flywheel though.

One thing I didn't like is that I had nowhere to stamp the number. I ended up having the brand milled off the swing arm so I could do that. I have had my engine number looked at by police when I got pulled up a few years ago.

Very good point. Preserve the original cases for posterity and use aftermarket for upgrade/power purposes, although I must admit to a little Dremel work on the boost and inlet ports

I would trust that the engineers at Malossi evaluated whether the fly side bearing was enough for those cases, and given their solid reputation after a few years on the market, assume they made the right decision.

And you're not talking about a monster build for those cases, either. Even at your high end, 24-25 HP is not crazy numbers. Use a high quality bearing, assemble precisely, and I think you'll be good-to-go.

Granted, but it's all relative, and 25 hp is more than double what that bearing was designed for by Piaggio. Malossi used the beefier bearing in the VR-One and had they used it in the V-One, it would be a no brainer!

Well...SKF provide a bearing selection/sizing wizard. Based on a little playing within it, that fly side bearing is good to about 45 HP of dynamic load, so the bearing itself should be fine.

Ok, what about carb and exhaust for a Quattrini 252/260 for the ideal touring setup? Distance between fuel stops will be important, so a huge guzzling carb not so appealing. Assume VR-One and 62 or 64mm / 127mm rod crank.

Question for Jack if you come here: Re: your comments in another thread Malossi VR-1-jetting. Are you saying best to keep the stroke to 60mm for uber reliable touring, or just make sure it's a Kingwelle or similar quality if going 62/64? Does the SIP / Uncle Tom qualify?

Jack's quote: As I understand it, what he's saying is that you're looking for a crank (reed, spacer, etc.) which maximizes the crankcase volume to give you better lower RPM performance and effectively extend the power curve down. A bell displaces significantly less volume than a rotary, but requires a reed valve.

A longer crank will add to the crank case volume (and displacement...no replacement for displacement), but the longer your conn rod, the more disaster-prone (and quality-dependent) the motor becomes at high power/RPM's.

Ok, thanks CM. What I'm thinking is a Kingwelle or SIP Uncle Tom 'wedge' crank with 62mm or 64mm stroke and 127mm rod, this rod length being the minimum requirement for the Quattrini 244 cylinder. When I say 'wedge' shaped, I guess these could be described as bell, but the shape is not as pronounced as the Mazz bell.

So bell/wedge it is and it must be => 127mm rod for the Quattrini, so the only consideration left is whether it's worth going 62 for 252cc or 64 for 260cc, or just stick to 60 for the base 244cc? Reliability is a really strong requirement here and anything that impacts that will be discounted. Given that it's a long distance, low maintenance touring build, I don't think massive bhp and high RPM will be prominent factors. Torque and wide band needed here.

Given the focus on reliability, I think I'd stick to 60mm. You're going to get incremental benefit, but do so at the cost of increased risk of crank or conn rod failure, something I've personally struggled with on both my Mazzy bell cranks and rather spectacularly with my Mazzy full circle.

And don't forget that you're going to have to machine the fly side crankcase lip to fit a 62 or 64mm crank into the cases at all.

Roger that. Not a concern if there's sufficient benefit with a 62 or 64. Scooter Center and Kingwelle both sell VR-One cases ready machined to taken the 62/64/65 strokers. Sounds like my safest option is 60mm and just be happy with 244cc

The piston size and material are a factor too. If forged or cast is a big difference; in rods and pistons.
This is a factor in touring reliability for sure.
A big cast piston (68.5mm) with a 60mm crank and 110mm rod; is absolutely safe at 9000rpm. Can push it for a short duration up to 10500rpm but that's it. Not sure where the guaranteed rod failure rpm is but don't care to find out.
With a 64mm crank, these rpm numbers drop considerably. Less than 8400 is safe and little over 9000rpm is where the major issues begin. When lengthening the stroke the port durations increase, these rpms are then possible without tuning. Forged conrod and forged piston are a lot safer. Even so the crank bearings will still suffer with the even heavier oscillating load.
62mm is less risk but not no risk.

Thought you might be interested in my mileage (kilometreage if we're being technically correct!) last weekend. A number of us did a two-day ride based in a country town, meant to be 800km but I sheared a clutch key at about 500. Anyway it averaged out at 160km per tank (worked out on 7.5L per tank). Most of the time we were doing between 85-110km/h. I was fairly happy with that.

VR One cases, Malossi reed intake, PHBH 30 and Polini box exhaust.

That sounds like a good ride and pretty good gas mileage. Do you consider the woodruff shearing as a one off or are you thinking it's a weak point given the power and spin-up that your motor delivers? Do you think the SIP/BFA geared style crank and clutch are worth the extra spend?

I think the culprit was the condition of the roads, believe it or not! There were patches on patches and pothole after pothole. We were going uphill into a strong headwind. Craig crouched down and so did I... of course as you crouch down you tend to pull on the throttle and, usually less noticeable, the gear change. This time I suddenly found myself in third instead of 4th, at around 100km/h. That's where I think I did the damage. About 10 or 15 mins later it started to slip the clutch and I knew something was wrong. PS a sheared key in an Uncle Tom crank is much harder to dig out than the normal kind, x 10.

60mpg is really not so bad. Reducing the atomiser size will up this a little. Still not bad👍

Missing gears with big bhp is awful. Last time I did it , I cracked the main casing. Pretty sure CM did the same.
Clutch is another nut that can be done up double tight. 90 ft lbs for me.

Yup. I trashed my LML cases almost exactly three years ago when I missed a shift. I was circling looking for my phone, which had popped out of the phone holder, so I had no phone to call for backup and wound up pushing it home. Two miles, all uphill. Zero stars; would not recommend.

I've been lucky not to have damaged the cases, just the key this time. Xmas tree and third gear in the old 221 last time. At least that time I still had 2nd and 4th to get home on.