Modern Vespa

That's a depressing post you've got there. Hard to even believe. I'm about to hop on my scooter and ride 15 miles across some seriously bad traffic, lanesplitting/filtering the whole way, and I don't anticipate any problems at all. I've never had a single problem with anyone in all the many years I've been doing such things. I guess people fear what they don't understand.

Whoah boy, that one's going to be hard to read soon.

+1

I'm about to do the same for 20 miles.

As I've been doing for almost ten years.

BTW. I have had one serious crash. On a city street. Riding in the middle of a lane, not splitting, and getting hit by a distracted left-turner.

I see you're in LA, where they've been doing it forever. It wouldn't be nearly so easy, or safe, in AZ, especially the Phoenix and Tucson areas. Check this out. Notice AZ is at the top of the list. CA isn't even on it.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/where-road-rage-is-a-way-of-life-these-states-have-the-most-confrontational-drivers-survey-says/ar-AA1g3SKp

You know, I'm not sure why the ampersand got altered there. It wasn't intentional. I'll have to have a look.

That tracks with my general perception of the kind of people that live in Arizona.

So I'm going to jump in because I'm bored and really have no skin in the game. So feel free to completely ignore me.

I am neither for nor against, living in a state where it's illegal. My experience seeing it is therefore biased, because I'm watching riders who are also rule breakers and already predisposed to doing it wrong. In fact, those I've seen do it have largely come off as straight-up jerks.

The thing that interests me is all the talk of splitting being safer. But everywhere I see that printed, it is followed by a list of caveats. One of which is always everyone being happy and on board with it (and smiling and waving as the motorcyclists passes by at 5mph faster than the rest of traffic). Which drivers rarely are. People get shot over parking spaces. So to say it is safer under perfect conditions isn't really a good argument, because conditions in traffic are never perfect. As riders we all know the mantra of riding like everyone is actively trying to kill you. So take ideal off the table.

The numbers I'm seeing paint a different picture, too. And being in data collection, let's assume that every time I say "statistics", it's implied that "statistics" is in quotes, because I know how "statistics" work. Also, if you'd like to drink every time you see "statistics", feel free.

An article from "Rider Magazine" says this, Ok, so lane splitting reduces rear end accidents by 2%. That's good. BUT, the state of California - where it's legal - says this, So 2% reduction in accidents is accompanied by 17% of total accidents caused by lane splitting. Those are real world statistics, right?

Where is the actual as opposed to theoretical increase in safety that lane splitting provides?

I've split off Marbles's outburst (and much of the subsequent discussion) to the Thread Graveyard. We now return to our regularly scheduled programming.

Even in California, where it is legal (and, in my experience, where the cagers are largely conditioned to accept lane splitting peacefully) many motorcyclists continue to do it wrong, and contrary to official guidelines. I see it daily.

Under those conditions, yes, lane splitting is still dangerous.

I've also personally ridden probably many hundreds of miles while lane splitting, sometimes continuously for more than 20-30 miles without a break in traffic, all without incident.

Well, okay, I did actually break someone's mirror once.

Yup, very hard to read, indeed.

And that's exactly the input I'm asking for. YOU have done it safely. But does that make THE ACT of lane splitting safe overall? Statistics would say no. Again, if everyone did it exactly the right way every time it would, of course, be safe. But if everyone DROVE exactly the right way every time, driving would be perfectly safe. And it isn't.

I've seen this guy juggle chainsaws, and he always does it without getting hurt. But, does that make THE ACT of juggling chainsaws a safe practice? (hyperbole mine)

Statistics can be misleading or rather the interpretations of statistics may not always point to the results you might expect. I like to think I am pretty good at gleaning a meaning from the data but the only thing murkier than data (statistics) interpretation is economics.

You make an excellent point about not seeing lane splitting done anywhere except where it is illegal and I would agree with your assessment that only those predisposed to not following the rules would be splitting there as well as those that might go along with the rules most of the time but for whatever reason are just exasperated and going for it.

This aligns with my view that if you haven't seen it work in action where MpFrank commutes every day you have no idea how well it can really work. The difficulty is getting everybody else to drink the koolaid and go along like they do in LA and SF.

Also I want to point out that for me as a cyclist its not about safety. Cycling of any type is inherently dangerous. The thing that splitting undoubtedly achieves is relieving the traffic jams and improving traffic flow. Not only that but the incentive it provides. If you know that you can spend way less time stuck in traffic each way by riding your motorcycle/scooter and lane splitting you would take advantage of it if you are an experienced pilot. This reduces traffic, improves traffic flow and improves air quality.

I think that the safety aspect is really hard to quantify with statistics or anything else. It would seem logical that it is safer where it is accepted than where it is not.

This article from Rider Magazine seems pretty thorough, and seems to present both sides pretty well.

Okay, yes, and to continue that line of reasoning: if people didn't exceed the speed limit while driving their cars, we would see less deaths. But nobody is clamoring to outlaw automobiles because some people die while doing stupid things in an automobile.

I don't see how lane splitting is different.

ONLY because I've seen several statements made about how lane splitting makes things safer. And, because when I see that statement made in articles it always includes the qualifier "if everyone follows the rules". Which they don't.

What I'm saying is we can make the statement that there are many benefits to lane splitting, but let's not make safety one of them. That's all.

Nope. I call bullshit. Lane splitting is safer IF everyone follows the rules. Full stop. If someone steps out of bounds, they're now a different statistic. Call it "hooning" or whatever you want. It's not fair to tar the people who do behave themselves with the same brush.

"The highest risk for any motorcyclist lane splitting in freeway traffic is other vehicles changing lanes. In suburban and city environments, lane filtering riders can find themselves among vehicles unexpectedly maneuvering into or out of traffic."

This! This is why I have said several times in this forum about how I have heard at work (heavy industrial construction) hundreds of time "stay out of pinch points"

If you are lane splitting pinch point are exactly where you want to be. You are safe as a baby in their mothers arms when you are right in the middle between to cars that know you are there and accepting/tolerant of lane splitting!

The danger comes when there is an opening big enough for someone to try to change lanes and in the type of heavy urban traffic where people are also used to lane splitters they also do not use turn signals.

If you give away any intent to change lanes people will try to block you so you wait for a spot where you can squeeze in and change abruptly.

This is super easy to recognize as a biker! Motorcycling is dangerous my prescription is find the hole and get through it!

A couple years back I went to a double funeral of a coworker and his wife. A bunch of us rode our bikes to escort the hearse to the gravesite after the service. My friend had hit a deer in the upper midwest with his wife riding pillion. While at the funeral another friend had brought his son who was in a wheelchair with a broken arm and leg from hitting a deer.

Deer are way more dangerous than lane splitting ever thought about being. Deer are psycho animals that will hide on the side of the road and wait until the last minute to jump right out in front of you. Had I not been driving the F-150 when my turn came I would be dead also. There is no predicting or spotting the deer the cars and trucks in heavy traffic are super predictable and easy to avoid. The most dangerous rides are out in the country with no traffic...where there are good hiding places for the deer.

No, no. Don't misunderstand me. I'm not casting shade on anyone who lane splits. I hope I didn't come across that way.

And, again, I don't live anywhere where I've seen firsthand the benefits. But, by what you are saying, anyone who does something the wrong way and causes an accident should be taken out of the statistics? Could we also do that for people who text and drive? Because, clearly, they weren't doing it right?

Yes, they are, but that's a "whataboutism". I also lost a relative to a deer/motorcycle accident.

We are only talking about splitting and filtering.

Wait a minute...you are taking it totally out of context. Besides that you are telling me I can't get off subject in a thread on modern vespa...hope I don't get disemvowelled.

Most of my post was speaking to your quote about the most dangerous part of splitting being the lane changing of the cars to which I replied that is the easiest thing to avoid, the easiest thig to recognize and see coming thereby eliminating most of the dangers of lane splitting and using the example of the deer to illustrate something that is impossible to predict!

I almost feel like you have just told me to shut up skids you can't talk anymore.

No, no. Again, apologies if I came across the wrong way. Your experience matters, and what you said I've seen others say as well about safely lane splitting.

I only mentioned the deer comparison (and that's the only portion I quoted) because that was a whataboutism (You think splitting is dangerous? What about deer? Or massive potholes? Or falling pianos? ). We could use sword swallowing or free climbing for comparison as well if we want to compare one danger to another. I'm just talking about the inherent (potential) danger of lane splitting and statistics.

Jess made the assertion that we should take the people who are doing it right out of the statistic, because they're doing it right.

I countered with the texting example - not comparing the dangers of each - but removing the people who text successfully while driving where it's perfectly legal out of the equation thus presenting texting and driving as perfectly safe, as long as you're doing it right.

I totally appreciate your input. I'm just here for the lively discussion.

I am a veteran in the service of my country, USMC.

I took a solemn oath to uphold the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic.

Chief among the rules in the constitution is the first amendment, freedom of speech.

If we were in a union meeting under Roberts rules and I was going on and on about a subject and some people were getting sick of hearing about it someone might raise their hand to be recognized by the chair and ask for the matter to quit being debated and call for the vote.

Under Robert's rules this motion takes precedence over the issue being debated and we have to vote on suspending the debate right away.

It takes a two thirds majority to suspend the debate decided by a division of the house! (this means that the ayes go to one side of the room and the nays to the other and the ayes have to be 2/3 or more otherwise I get to keep yapping about it...

I don't really like being told to shut up.

And please don't. Nobody asked you to.

Yes yes I understand how things especially when you are trying to respond quickly get confused but as I stated above it's not a whataboutism in my opnion and that was not the intent.

I was just describing the difference between how the most dangerous part of lane splitting is easy predictabe and citing deer as an example of something difficult if not impossible to predict.

Eliminate the most dangerous part of splitting by describing how to avoid it and it becomes much less dangerous was the point

I believe you stated that you don't think lane splitting is safe because some people do it wrong. But you've misrepresented the actual statement about the safety of lane splitting.

"Lane splitting is safe, when done within established guidelines". (Or something similar).

Simply ignoring the second half of the statement in order to make a point is deliberately misleading.

We are both just clarifying our hurried points to explain to each other absolutely no offense taken. I didn't say you told me to shut up I said it felt like that was the intent.

I do like to mention the free speech thing though. Union meetings or any government type meeting under Roberts rules clearly defines the importance of the first amendment in its application at the meeting. The same thing happens there as here in the forum the hurried not well thought out response are often misconstrued which is why it takes 2/3 majority to stop talking about it.

I also enjoy the lively debate and am not easily offended. I know I am an a$$hole and don't really mind being accurately described as one when I am.

My mother in law told me to shut up once...boy that was a fun BBQ!

No, I was only asking about the numbers. I totally agree that most things are safe, when done within the established guidelines. But that doesn't remove inherent dangers, does it? If you have a dangerous job, say logging, and you follow all of the rules, it doesn't make the job less inherently dangerous. Accidents happen, miscalculations happen, things happen that are out of your control. You are doing your part to make it as safe as possible, but there are still inherent dangers to the job itself.

This was an interesting part of the article. And, again, I'm not casting aspersions on lane splitters where it's perfectly legal. I am not questioning that you are riding safely or that thousands of people lane split on a regular basis. I'm not "asking are you safe?", I'm asking "is IT safe?"

Does that make sense?

I got the hint and fully understand it's meaning.

I tried to walk away but somebody else said something...

Yes!

As you pointed out in your first post you basis of comparison does not include experience where it works very well.

That's what those of us who have had experience where it works well are trying to tell you.

If we could get together and go for a ride, if I could get you to trust following me like my little brother did when he came for a visit to San Francisco you would see for yourself just how well it works!

And I will defer to your experience, because I have none.

But isn't that like saying, "It's perfectly safe if you're good at it?"

I haven't digested it all, and probably won't, but here's the CA study from 2015.

Motorcycle Lane-splitting and Safety in California

Lots of info.

there's a button for that...

What else is weird is I'm seeing as recently as 2021 lane splitting was not legal in Texas.

Yes. And there are still inherent dangers in driving (or riding in) an automobile, even when done safely and responsibly. And again, nobody is questioning whether automobiles are safe, or whether they ought to be outlawed because they carry a statistically nonzero chance of death.

So why single out lane splitting?

I'm ... not. I don't think.

What I'm trying to do is understand the numbers. I'm not saying outlaw lane splitting. What I'm trying to understand is the "It's perfectly safe when everything is done properly" statement.

If the numbers show that 17% of motorcycle accidents happen while in the process of lane splitting, that's significant, yes? You are saying you can't count that against the people who are doing it safely. Am I still correct? So, people who are in accidents while lane splitting improperly fall under their own statistic because they were doing it wrong.

I totally agree that when done properly, lane splitting can be safe. I also totally agree that eating Fugu is perfectly safe when done properly. That's not in question.

What I'm asking is do we throw out the 17% stat because "they were doing it wrong"? That is approaching one fifth of motorcycle accidents in the study while in the process of lane splitting. The study also does not say how many of those 17% were at fault. And that's important as well because it could speak to the inherent dangers of splitting.

And - by comparison - I used texting and driving stats. Michigan just went hands free. And before anyone says anything I know these are two very different things, and I am not comparing them. But, could we say about texting and driving accidents that the problem only occurs when people do it wrong, so those people should fall under a different statistic? In Missouri and Montana it is still legal.

My older brother was a very confident text and driver. Never had an accident. Apparently he was doing it right and it was perfectly safe. Is that a fair statement?

My contention is that simply lumping them all into "lane splitting" doesn't tell you much about whether it would be safe for you.

Nothing about riding on two wheels is "safe". The best we can do is mitigate the risks as much as possible. For me personally, that means staying within some self-imposed limits while lane splitting and being hyper-vigilant (more so than usual).

You are free to make your own decision about whether you think it is safe for you, based on what you know about yourself as a rider.

What I strongly strongly strongly object to is making blanket statements about lane splitting without regard to the finer points of the statistics.

And I would totally agree with that. Because the stat says "while" not "because of".

Believe me. I've been in data collection for 30+ years. I know how these things work.

Again, I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm comfortable leaving it at lane splitting has lots of advantages and is reasonably safe.

Besides, I'm technically at work, but also watching "Jason of Star Command" on Internet Archive. Don't tell anyone.

This is my queue to repeat that driving is like playing chess. I find heavy traffic(not stop n go) quite exciting, unlike boring open road.

rider MAGAZINE has an interesting podcast about lane splitting, an explanation of terms, the legalities and how it is viewed across communities of motorcyclists.

Ep. 60: On Lane Splitting with Eric Trow
From my own observations this is something most riders in New York do. Enforcement is minimal and because it isn't legal, most riders do not stick to any rules while splitting, sharing and filtering.