Modern Vespa

That's a depressing post you've got there. Hard to even believe. I'm about to hop on my scooter and ride 15 miles across some seriously bad traffic, lanesplitting/filtering the whole way, and I don't anticipate any problems at all. I've never had a single problem with anyone in all the many years I've been doing such things. I guess people fear what they don't understand.

Whoah boy, that one's going to be hard to read soon.

+1

I'm about to do the same for 20 miles.

As I've been doing for almost ten years.

BTW. I have had one serious crash. On a city street. Riding in the middle of a lane, not splitting, and getting hit by a distracted left-turner.

I see you're in LA, where they've been doing it forever. It wouldn't be nearly so easy, or safe, in AZ, especially the Phoenix and Tucson areas. Check this out. Notice AZ is at the top of the list. CA isn't even on it.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/where-road-rage-is-a-way-of-life-these-states-have-the-most-confrontational-drivers-survey-says/ar-AA1g3SKp

You know, I'm not sure why the ampersand got altered there. It wasn't intentional. I'll have to have a look.

That tracks with my general perception of the kind of people that live in Arizona.

So I'm going to jump in because I'm bored and really have no skin in the game. So feel free to completely ignore me.

I am neither for nor against, living in a state where it's illegal. My experience seeing it is therefore biased, because I'm watching riders who are also rule breakers and already predisposed to doing it wrong. In fact, those I've seen do it have largely come off as straight-up jerks.

The thing that interests me is all the talk of splitting being safer. But everywhere I see that printed, it is followed by a list of caveats. One of which is always everyone being happy and on board with it (and smiling and waving as the motorcyclists passes by at 5mph faster than the rest of traffic). Which drivers rarely are. People get shot over parking spaces. So to say it is safer under perfect conditions isn't really a good argument, because conditions in traffic are never perfect. As riders we all know the mantra of riding like everyone is actively trying to kill you. So take ideal off the table.

The numbers I'm seeing paint a different picture, too. And being in data collection, let's assume that every time I say "statistics", it's implied that "statistics" is in quotes, because I know how "statistics" work. Also, if you'd like to drink every time you see "statistics", feel free.

An article from "Rider Magazine" says this, Ok, so lane splitting reduces rear end accidents by 2%. That's good. BUT, the state of California - where it's legal - says this, So 2% reduction in accidents is accompanied by 17% of total accidents caused by lane splitting. Those are real world statistics, right?

Where is the actual as opposed to theoretical increase in safety that lane splitting provides?

I've split off Marbles's outburst (and much of the subsequent discussion) to the Thread Graveyard. We now return to our regularly scheduled programming.

Even in California, where it is legal (and, in my experience, where the cagers are largely conditioned to accept lane splitting peacefully) many motorcyclists continue to do it wrong, and contrary to official guidelines. I see it daily.

Under those conditions, yes, lane splitting is still dangerous.

I've also personally ridden probably many hundreds of miles while lane splitting, sometimes continuously for more than 20-30 miles without a break in traffic, all without incident.

Well, okay, I did actually break someone's mirror once.

Yup, very hard to read, indeed.

And that's exactly the input I'm asking for. YOU have done it safely. But does that make THE ACT of lane splitting safe overall? Statistics would say no. Again, if everyone did it exactly the right way every time it would, of course, be safe. But if everyone DROVE exactly the right way every time, driving would be perfectly safe. And it isn't.

I've seen this guy juggle chainsaws, and he always does it without getting hurt. But, does that make THE ACT of juggling chainsaws a safe practice? (hyperbole mine)

nope

This article from Rider Magazine seems pretty thorough, and seems to present both sides pretty well.

Okay, yes, and to continue that line of reasoning: if people didn't exceed the speed limit while driving their cars, we would see less deaths. But nobody is clamoring to outlaw automobiles because some people die while doing stupid things in an automobile.

I don't see how lane splitting is different.

ONLY because I've seen several statements made about how lane splitting makes things safer. And, because when I see that statement made in articles it always includes the qualifier "if everyone follows the rules". Which they don't.

What I'm saying is we can make the statement that there are many benefits to lane splitting, but let's not make safety one of them. That's all.

Nope. I call bullshit. Lane splitting is safer IF everyone follows the rules. Full stop. If someone steps out of bounds, they're now a different statistic. Call it "hooning" or whatever you want. It's not fair to tar the people who do behave themselves with the same brush.

nope

No, no. Don't misunderstand me. I'm not casting shade on anyone who lane splits. I hope I didn't come across that way.

And, again, I don't live anywhere where I've seen firsthand the benefits. But, by what you are saying, anyone who does something the wrong way and causes an accident should be taken out of the statistics? Could we also do that for people who text and drive? Because, clearly, they weren't doing it right?

Yes, they are, but that's a "whataboutism". I also lost a relative to a deer/motorcycle accident.

We are only talking about splitting and filtering.

nope

No, no. Again, apologies if I came across the wrong way. Your experience matters, and what you said I've seen others say as well about safely lane splitting.

I only mentioned the deer comparison (and that's the only portion I quoted) because that was a whataboutism (You think splitting is dangerous? What about deer? Or massive potholes? Or falling pianos? ). We could use sword swallowing or free climbing for comparison as well if we want to compare one danger to another. I'm just talking about the inherent (potential) danger of lane splitting and statistics.

Jess made the assertion that we should take the people who are doing it right out of the statistic, because they're doing it right.

I countered with the texting example - not comparing the dangers of each - but removing the people who text successfully while driving where it's perfectly legal out of the equation thus presenting texting and driving as perfectly safe, as long as you're doing it right.

I totally appreciate your input. I'm just here for the lively discussion.

nope

And please don't. Nobody asked you to.

nope

I believe you stated that you don't think lane splitting is safe because some people do it wrong. But you've misrepresented the actual statement about the safety of lane splitting.

"Lane splitting is safe, when done within established guidelines". (Or something similar).

Simply ignoring the second half of the statement in order to make a point is deliberately misleading.

nope

nope

No, I was only asking about the numbers. I totally agree that most things are safe, when done within the established guidelines. But that doesn't remove inherent dangers, does it? If you have a dangerous job, say logging, and you follow all of the rules, it doesn't make the job less inherently dangerous. Accidents happen, miscalculations happen, things happen that are out of your control. You are doing your part to make it as safe as possible, but there are still inherent dangers to the job itself.

This was an interesting part of the article. And, again, I'm not casting aspersions on lane splitters where it's perfectly legal. I am not questioning that you are riding safely or that thousands of people lane split on a regular basis. I'm not "asking are you safe?", I'm asking "is IT safe?"

Does that make sense?

nope

nope

And I will defer to your experience, because I have none.

But isn't that like saying, "It's perfectly safe if you're good at it?"

I haven't digested it all, and probably won't, but here's the CA study from 2015.

Motorcycle Lane-splitting and Safety in California

Lots of info.

there's a button for that...

What else is weird is I'm seeing as recently as 2021 lane splitting was not legal in Texas.

Yes. And there are still inherent dangers in driving (or riding in) an automobile, even when done safely and responsibly. And again, nobody is questioning whether automobiles are safe, or whether they ought to be outlawed because they carry a statistically nonzero chance of death.

So why single out lane splitting?

I'm ... not. I don't think.

What I'm trying to do is understand the numbers. I'm not saying outlaw lane splitting. What I'm trying to understand is the "It's perfectly safe when everything is done properly" statement.

If the numbers show that 17% of motorcycle accidents happen while in the process of lane splitting, that's significant, yes? You are saying you can't count that against the people who are doing it safely. Am I still correct? So, people who are in accidents while lane splitting improperly fall under their own statistic because they were doing it wrong.

I totally agree that when done properly, lane splitting can be safe. I also totally agree that eating Fugu is perfectly safe when done properly. That's not in question.

What I'm asking is do we throw out the 17% stat because "they were doing it wrong"? That is approaching one fifth of motorcycle accidents in the study while in the process of lane splitting. The study also does not say how many of those 17% were at fault. And that's important as well because it could speak to the inherent dangers of splitting.

And - by comparison - I used texting and driving stats. Michigan just went hands free. And before anyone says anything I know these are two very different things, and I am not comparing them. But, could we say about texting and driving accidents that the problem only occurs when people do it wrong, so those people should fall under a different statistic? In Missouri and Montana it is still legal.

My older brother was a very confident text and driver. Never had an accident. Apparently he was doing it right and it was perfectly safe. Is that a fair statement?

My contention is that simply lumping them all into "lane splitting" doesn't tell you much about whether it would be safe for you.

Nothing about riding on two wheels is "safe". The best we can do is mitigate the risks as much as possible. For me personally, that means staying within some self-imposed limits while lane splitting and being hyper-vigilant (more so than usual).

You are free to make your own decision about whether you think it is safe for you, based on what you know about yourself as a rider.

What I strongly strongly strongly object to is making blanket statements about lane splitting without regard to the finer points of the statistics.

And I would totally agree with that. Because the stat says "while" not "because of".

Believe me. I've been in data collection for 30+ years. I know how these things work.

Again, I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm comfortable leaving it at lane splitting has lots of advantages and is reasonably safe.

Besides, I'm technically at work, but also watching "Jason of Star Command" on Internet Archive. Don't tell anyone.

This is my queue to repeat that driving is like playing chess. I find heavy traffic(not stop n go) quite exciting, unlike boring open road.

rider MAGAZINE has an interesting podcast about lane splitting, an explanation of terms, the legalities and how it is viewed across communities of motorcyclists.

Ep. 60: On Lane Splitting with Eric Trow
From my own observations this is something most riders in New York do. Enforcement is minimal and because it isn't legal, most riders do not stick to any rules while splitting, sharing and filtering.