Modern Vespa

I attended a large urban scooter rally recently. The festivities began with a night ride, leaving at 10pm-ish and traveling into the heart of a large US city. (I'm leaving descriptions intentionally vague)

I've attended this ride for several years, and anticipated enjoying several days of scooter related activities. This was not to be. Whereas, in previous years, the night ride was a single large group (last year I'd estimate 150 machines), and "blockers" were employed to aggressively block intersections so the group could maintain unity by continuing "en masse" through red lights, this year it was decided to change the structure for safety and image reasons. The city has been suffering from large groups of "hooligan squid riders", and the sponsoring club wanted to avoid any association with that sort of activity.

It was announced that we would separate into "slow" and "fast" groups, would be stopping at red lights, that there would be NO "blockers", and that group leaders would wait for all riders to rejoin the group before proceeding after any group separation. Each group had about 40-50 riders. I'd estimate about 8 vintage 2 strokes in each group, the remainder being 4 stroke.

Also, apparently, whoever chose the route, chose it for maximum contact with the city's night life, there were many, MANY traffic lights and at one point, a very extended crawl on a very limited access section of street, past a huge music venue that had just discharged thousands of teens who were being picked up by cars. That was a 1/2 mile long traffic jam, 40 feet at a time and stop. Overall, we spent more time standing still than riding.

The ride is sponsored by a Vespa group, and there are many members who ride classic, vintage machines. There were many two strokes, including rare Lambrettas and vintage Vespas, as well as an assortment of more modern machines, from 50cc to maxi scoots.

I love the quality and aesthetic of vintage machines, and in principle, the two stroke engine, I've even thought of buying one, but I know it's not wise. I can't tolerate the fumes for long without getting ill, and living as I do, in an urban environment, idling at traffic lights is a big part of my riding reality.

In previous years, two stroke fumes were noticeable, but tolerable, because the group never stopped. This year, the combination of the very frequent stops, including stops mid-block to wait for those who had missed the light, and the natural tendency of the group to bunch up while stopped, made the oil smoke very noticeable, visually, as well as breathing it. I moved to the front of the group, but those 2 stokes are FAST, and even the slowest machine can catch up when one is stopped at a traffic light or mid-block, waiting. Lots of the city are effectively brick canyons, it was very noticeable how the air would be more breathable when passing through an intersection, which under normal conditions would be where the worst air quality exists. To make matters worse, many of the oil burner riders spent their time at traffic lights rev bombing and honking their horns. If there were pedestrians or cars to witness, those young men were making it clear they wanted to be, or rather, INSISTED that they be noticed.

I survived about 2/3 of the ride, then had to leave the group, with another four stroke rider, half my age. We compared notes as we rode homewards. He was suffering from a bad headache, myself from nausea. I still felt ill a day later, and wasn't in the mood to join any of the other activities, including several meals that I had prepaid for. Talking with other friends since, apparently the oil smoke was being discussed by quite a few other riders. Several riders said they would not be attending the rally in the future.

I really enjoyed this ride in years past, and I'd like to approach the Vespa group ( I'm not a member) with my reactions, and hopefully some suggestions to encourage them to better manage the issue in the future. Before I do that, I thought I'd ask this group for their ideas and suggestions.

My feeling is that, even considering Vespa riders only, it's 10 to 20 times more likely that this group's prospective future members will be riding 4 stroke machines. If group activities make them ill, it's hard for me to imagine those people will return. And if the group benefits from sponsoring these rally, (registration fees alone would have been worth about $3,200 for that night ride) one would think that they would try to accommodate riders of "moderns", at least during the event.

I know that people love their vintage machines, but I hope that the vintage folks realize, if they can't, or don't try to, elicit the support of fellow riders on somewhat differently configured machines, what chance will they have politically against the general, non-riding public?

So, what reactions, responses, ideas and suggestions do members of this forum have, to facilitate vintage two strokes coexisting with others on group rides, and keeping everybody happy?

What, if any, solution has your group adopted?

Very large group ride through a large city on a weekend evening? No one deconflicts the route with events? No one plans traffic support?

I am glad to hear about following traffic laws, but even 40-50 are too many.

Few thoughts:
Ride routes somewhere other than through the city?

Separate riders into classes by scooter age, engine type and size, etc.? Then if needed, separate by riding style like fast and slow?

Smaller groups.

Mmmmmmmm... I love the smell of a two stroke in the morning,or a weekend evening for that matter.

After many years of riding both modern and vintage bikes, for the last several years I've been down to one vintage two stroke scooter.

In my city, where there a lot of vintage and modern bikes, there's largely been a natural separation between the two groups over the past decade, so not a ton of group rides involving both. But in my years of leading group rides with both kinds, I've never had a problem with a modern rider not wanting vintage bikes to come along. From my perspective, the two stroke smell was one of the things that led me to get a vintage bike, and I still love the smell.

Traditionally, vintage bikes have wanted to be up front because their brakes aren't as good, and they don't want to crash into a modern bike with strong brakes. I realize that collides with your concern, but I can certainly vouch for wanting a little more stopping space.

You'll never get your way with this one. No one will ever enforce a 4 stroke only ride/ separate groups. You definitely wont get either group of riders to stop showing off and or revving their engines either.

Best to stay in front/ way back/ ride your own ride and meetup later if the organizers wont block/ stop at every light.

Tough call for the event planners. Either way they're going to alienate someone.

How about those of you that can't tolerate the smell lead a group of anti-2strokers next time?

The leaf blowers in your suburbs gotta be more of a nuisance. As Public Enemy once said..."Don't Believe the Hype"

I LOVE the smell of the 2 stroke engine. Especially with bean oil. But I loathe riding in large groups. I couldn't have faded that ride at all, but that's just me.

for a little fragrance in your regular lawn mower or such get some bean oil and add just a bit to the regular gas, makes lawn mowing much more enjoyable. I use bean oil in my chain saw, weedeater as well.

I used to ride in a small group on my two-stoke bike. They requested I rode at the back. Until and oil burning TDM 850 came on a ride and they said my bike was not that bad after all.

I suggest the ride/rally organizers request that the vintage bike ride at the rear.

Also hypochondriacs should not go on group rides.

I don't mind the smoke so much, it's the running over parts that have fallen off I object to.

Like many others, I love the smell of two stroke. This time of year especially.

But I recognize that everyone is entitled to complain, and express how the subject of their complaint makes them physically unwell, so as to justify said complaint.

Anyway, September is the perfect month for two stroke smoke.

Everyone should have one

I am totally amazed that you think that it is legitimate or even safe to take it upon yourselves to block red lights so that a group can pass unhindered.

Astonishingly reckless. I think the other traffic will kill you long before the two-stroke fumes do!

'American Traffic Police Officers must be wonderful' as U.S visitors used to quaintly say of London's Bobbies!

I have heart disease, so I'm out.

I've seen it done in the UK on large rideouts on many occasions. Not saying it's right or I approve, but sheer volume of numbers tends to make it much safer than if it were just a couple of reckless bikes red light hopping. Most people are patient and will wait the couple of minutes it might take to pass. The small minority of pissed off ones generally don't have much choice.

Blocked traffic on charity rides run by hairy biker types, larger funeral rides and mass protest rides. Some of these the police closed the intersections for us.

But it would be dumb to do that on just a club ride.

OP people survived just fine* in the good old days where two strokes roamed the streets unimpeded by air quality standards and dad filled the Ford Anglia with smoke so thick I don't know how he could see out the windscreen. I'd suggest you start easy with 100 to 1 in the leaf blower for 5 minutes every other day, and slowly work up to 25 to 1 for an hour. You'll enjoy those group rides with the cool stinky kids all the more. Damn the neighbours.

*apart from all the cancer and heart disease

I was at the Vespa Alp Days a couple of months ago. 1,000 Vespa's, of which I guess about 3-400 2-strokes, starting at the same time and all having to leave through a gate a couple of yards wide.

It was absolutely horrible. I love the smell of a 2-stroke, but not of 400 of them. We were standing still for about 15 minutes with those 2-strokes destroying the air before being able to get out of there.

That was the day that I grew even more fond of modernvespa.com. I've really lost all love I ever had for vintage Vespa's. Give me a modern Vespa any day of the year.

Anyway, not an answer to your question, just a message of support and understanding.

I think a lot of this depends on how well a 2 stroke is running. I've felt a bit strange behind some visibly smokey classics, but felt great riding with others.

London also now has an ultra low emission zone, with the focus being on health as a result of air pollution - rather than climate change. Most diesel vehicles, and some petrol vehicles now have to pay a daily charge to go even to the far outskirts of the city.

But there's a company testing 2 stroke Vespas for the specific emission that harms health (Nitrogen Dioxide), and giving them exempt certificates - apparently 2 strokes are actually relatively low in this...

If the "blockers" don't have a permit and police assistance it's actually illegal, not to mention irresponsible and impolite.

But complaining about 2 stroke exhaust-that's just sinful.

After watching what's happening to these JSO idiots lately, I'm not sure I want to be blocking traffic at intersections. It could be detrimental to one's health.

Group rides in our area typically employ blockers judiciously and carefully. They are not needed at every intersection or stoplight.

I have led/ridden many group rides where we employ the marker system. We explain to riders in the pre-ride meeting that if you get separated to continue straight at lights and intersections unless you see a marker rider directing you to make a turn. The marker rider will typically be in the 2-5th positions behind the leader and stop at the intersection/stoplight as needed. The marker is not blocking traffic, but remains at the intersection directing riders until the tail gunner arrives.

As for 2 stroke smoke, I believe the OP was making the point that on a ride without a lot of movement it can become overwhelming; but not sure what could be done about that other than a route change. Planners likely did not anticipate stop & go traffic that was encountered that late. I have found that typical rides with modest traffic flow with 2 stroke scooters are usually pretty tolerable.

I also love the smell of 2 stroke engines, as well as the sound, the powerband, and the mechanical simplicity. I have a Genuine Stella 2 stroke (basically a vintage Vespa made in India) a Puch/Kromag 49cc 2 stroke pedal moped, and a VeloSolex 3800 49cc "cyclomoteur" made in France in the 1970s. I'm 64, and 2 stroke exhaust does not bother me at all. Everybody is different. I don't like bikes with electronics, or crotch rockets of any kind. But there is nothing I can do to get them off the road. You just have to let everybody ride what they want, and you ride what you want.

I have to say I agree with the OP. A large number of 2 strokes scoots effectively either idling or stop-starting their way through a busy city centre 'for the fun of it' is not a great idea.

The concentration of a number of pollutants increases and you don't know how many people, riders or passer-by alike alike, have respiratory issues (or could be on their way to developing them).

I've a two-stroke scoot but don't use it for the city commute, mostly for the above reason. Our urban areas are polluted enough without adding to it if there are less polluting alternatives available. For me, my right to ride what I like, when I like, where I like comes second to wanting cleaner air in urban areas for the far larger number of people who live, work and play there (including myself).

That's because you're leaving the smoke cloud behind you Jerry

John

I see issues more than the two stroke smoke with the ride. First even 50 is too many for an urban ride. Heck, even 20 would seriously be pushing it. If you have rides with hundreds of scooters then contact your local PD for an escorted ride so you can stay together I'd that's what you want to do. Otherwise much smaller groups and pick one that has compatible to you riders in it whether that is similar size, type of scooter or just friends.

Routes for large groups need to be planned to avoid heavily congested area and that includes concerts, sports events even some big funerals. Though the latter is harder to plan for.

There also needs to be ride briefings with how riders are expected to ride, staggered, no zooming around, signals, marker system/blocking, designated people who know the route to take over if they get separated, whatever, best place for inexperienced riders, any sidecars, etc.

One club I road with kicked a guy out from future group rides for falling back then zooming up through the group and passing both in lane and crossing center line in a dangerous manner with oncoming cars. Yes, they did talk to him about his behavior but when he continued to do it he was banned.

Personally I love vintage but not so much the two stroke smoke. Heath issues and allergies come into play so I'd choose to keep sufficient distance between me and them on the road. In heavy traffic if I couldn't avoid idling behind a bunch of smokers I'd cut out and head to the finish point by a different route rather than tell someone their vintage was unwelcome. As my heath issue is just that mine so it is up to me to manage it. I do the same thing with cigarette and other types of smokers, days with high pollution indexes from fires or whatever as those too cause me issues. My problem to deal with not theirs.

There are other things like riders who insist on blasting music out from the bike attempting to hear it over road noises that bother me worse in many ways. Now those folks I will not ride with.

This is why the vintage and modern crowds don't usually blend much.

I agree with cdwise though - this route wasn't well selected to make it possible for a smooth free flowing ride anyway. That just makes it all harder.

I have moderns and vintage. I get that a lot of people don't care for massive clouds of 2 stroke. I don't understand the "man up" sentiment that comes out for these posts, if it affects someone that's legit. It doesn't seem to bug me much but that doesn't make it not affect you.

In Minnesota, there is actually a training course that certifies you as a legit blocker. The local "Scooter Collective Ride Group" holds large rallies and uses these trained blockers to move large groups through the city. In my experience most people stopped by this wave from there cars. I'm sure there are a few who are miffed by having to wait.

My riding group routinely breaks into smaller groups for safety. We depart from and end at the same future location. There is a usually a five minute interval between each groups departure. You can chose if you want to follow a fast or slow leader like myself.

In this sense, my riding group does not need blockers. We will wait at an intersection and allow all traffic to clear before advancing or turning. Group leaders have the route on GPS or carry turn by turn directions. This requires a bit of advance planning for ride leaders, but has worked well.

These procedures were established by our group founder. He was a fanatic on safety. We have never lost anyone. A few have taken curves to fast out in the country and went off the road.

Two strokes - none in my group. They can be stinky.

Bob Copeland

Thanks for all your responses.

I enjoy the two strokes, build, style, aesthetics, even the sound is enjoyable, as long as I'm not fighting the urge to vomit and a serious headache, in which case my mood changes incredibly. Some people are more susceptible than others,no doubt. I'm not the MOST susceptible person I know by far, I've worked on tree cutting jobs where other guys insisted that I lay off the gas saw and use an electric, despite how much it was going to slow down work. They got sick much quicker than I did.

The health effects, short term and long term, of two stroke exhaust are well documented for anyone who takes the time to look. It's not just "the smell", it's 8 or 9 times the particulate output of a similar power 4 stroke, and those particulates include a number of known carcinogens. If the vintage folks can acknowledge the fact that they can and do make others ill, that would be a good first step towards a solution. I'd be happy to read any scientific or medical study that any of them can link us to that suggests otherwise. I could find a dozen supporting my statements in 5 minutes, but I'm sure this post is quite boring enough without that.

I don't think that the vintage folks realize how vulnerable they are, what with the appreciation that folks nowadays have for environmental issues. People live in these neighborhoods, they raise their babies in these neighborhoods. I don't imagine that if somebody pointed to a hipster riding by on their noisy, 50 year old machine, followed by a visible trail of smoke, and made the true statement, "That guy doesn't have to pass ANY of the emissions or safety testing that YOU have to, with your car, and he's poisoning your babies!", that it would be very difficult to get average people worked up enough to insist the testing loophole be closed, immediately.

Then, add the fact that about 1 in 4 of those "vintage" machines didn't have current registration, if any plate at all, and some had very dubious electrical systems, etc etc, ... It's not hard to imagine someone could ruin everybody's fun with a timely phone call.

And, considering that even on our group ride, sponsored by a club whose president owns several vintage machines, "moderns" outnumbered "vintage" by at least 5 to 1, and that prospects for future additions to "that side" are fewer every year, it seems that the political advantage would be far on "my" side.

But, this approach is the last thing I'd want to do. I realize that my 4 stroke scooter is only two rings of objectionability outside that vintage scooter. It's obvious to me that making life harder for them will almost certainly come back to me.

Two wheeled riders only represent something like 6% of vehicles in the USA, and I suspect that since we each tend to own several, our actual voting population would be much less than this number. If we don't hang together, we will hang separately. This is why I'm seeking a solution that you "vintage" guys suggest.

Below is the best idea for a resolution that I've heard. Subject to your responses, this is how I think I will suggest that the Vespa group manage the issue. They would include this language in the write up for next year's event.

"Since the engines of vintage machines have unique torque profiles and vintage braking systems, they accelerate and decelerate unlike more modern machines. For everyones safety, this year we'd like riders of vintage machine to group ride in a "vintage" group. Rider's of modern machines, desiring the vintage experience, can join this group, with the approval of the vintage group leader."

Everybody happy? Zoom zoom zoom!

When I delivered for Doordash I had to earn less money(boony runs) because of traffic. It's no fun stopping next to a diesel truck. Those trucks should have their exhaust vertical instead of pointed at any vehicle that stops next to them.

I also witnessed something in 1998. I was Working at the dog track. They don't allow smoking at the tellers. One night A bunch of Jaguar football players were there. An elderly lady teller with emphysema asked one of the players to not smoke his cigar at her station. He obliged her by blowing smoke in her face.
I almost got fired for the the way I berated him.

Try it. Worst you could get back is a no. In that case, ride your own ride.

An interesting thread.

I'll bet it won't be long, when a similar discussion will be held about electric vs. ICE engined scoots.

Over here folks living in cities are more sensitive for emissions, for the natural reasons. As the short-distance buses have pretty much gone electric and cars somewhat 'driven' away from city centers, even a single motorcycle is starting to look like a polluting, noisy dinosaur. Ask how I would know

If a large bunc of scoots would organize here an illegal rally in the middle of the night in a city center, this would be in news headlines and probably the last time any ICE scoot had any business into that city

Now that the ICE is slowly being driven to extinction, lot of attention is now being focused on particles produced the vehicle tyres and brakes as they wear:

"Toxic particles from tyre wear almost 2,000 times worse than from exhausts as weight of cars increases"

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyres-produce-more-particle-pollution-than-exhausts-tests-show

The increasing size and weight of SUVs is in their sights now - Paris is considering charging owners of SUVs more to park in the city.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/11/paris-charge-suv-drivers-higher-parking-fees-tackle-auto-besity

John

EVs produce negligible brake dust compared to fossil fuel vehicles, as they have use electrical regenerative braking to recover some of the otherwise wasted kinetic energy.
It's easier for the lazy EV owner to keep their wheels looking clean! (And you save money rarely needing brake pad replacement).

I don't think there's even a Level Of Dickness high enough for that sort of behaviour!

This thread's going to be fun. I can see it going in six directions already.

My short story.

I started with a Chinese 150 4t that I dearly loved. Put 10K miles on it while I had it. During that time I bought the P200E, which I also loved for different reasons. I rode that for a few years and then sold it for several reasons. Not least of which was because it was a two stroke.

Nothing against two stroke riders because I really get it. I'm sure I'm more empathetic for owning one and even more so because I enjoyed it.

But at some point I decided to go entirely 4T. I'm not an eco warrior, but my personal decision was just to let the 2T go. I miss the vroom vroom and the pop pop, but I wanted to ride cleaner. My wife's bike is fuel injected and my next one probably will be as well, if not electric. I'm really happy with the Stella 4T because it feels like the P200 (sort of) but is a cleaner machine.

I equate it to deciding to quit smoking. Not cigarettes, but cigars and pipes. Pros vs cons I'm better off for it. I gave away a collection of 30+ pipes and haven't looked back.

I'm not out to change the world, but I'm always looking for ways to do things better. I love my FIAT 500e as well as my Kaabo Mantis without concern for what other people think. No agenda, just me trying to do little things.

But to the OP, 2T in town is rough. Sometimes for you but almost always for someone around you. And I'd rather not be that guy.

Just my 2¢.

Riding in heavy traffic with a group of 2-strokes doesn't seem as appealing in my 40's as it did in my 20's

Regardless of the waving from happy if inconvenienced drivers, the roads are a public way. Even if no one is unhappy, the roads are expected to remain passable.

Even such things as buildings being moved are guaranteed free passage-utility lines must be moved to allow them to pass.

I'll keep my thoughts on the comments about 2 stroke acceptability to myself.

My son mentioned when they had a scooter rally in Aberystwyth recently that 2 stroke hung heavily in the air. He said it got to a point where it was like standing in the garage with the engine running when I use to have a 2 stroke. He also rode 2 strokes as well so not anything new to him and he said never noticed it till then and being a seaside town would have thought it would have cleared quickly 🤔