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Bill Dog wrote:
Yes which is why they still race at Monaco because it's really a race not a procession.
I agree Monaco is problematic, but not for the same reasons that Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar and Abu Dhabi are problematic.

Monaco is certainly about money, but it's also very much intertwined with F1 history. The fact that the cars are now too fat to race effectively on that circuit should be a bit of an embarrassment to the FIA, but we already know that the FIA have not even one milligram of shame.

I would be sad to see Monaco dropped from the schedule, even if I agree it's probably the right thing.
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I think that it's had its day. Not only are the cars too long and wide but Hybrids are more effective at discharging their contents on long straights and Monaco has none of those.

It's also incredibly narrow which puts the emphasis on the Qualifying and not the Race. It's a nostalgic business expo and nothing more.

As a note I saw the Porsche 919 Evo on a demo run at Brands Hatch a few years ago and they couldn't even engage the Hybrid as it didn't have the room to build up a charge.

At Spa it was the fastest car I've ever seen ever but only because it was kicking out 1200 HP at full sparks.
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I thought hybrids were most effective when slowing (charging batteries) and accelerating out of corners, and Monaco has plenty of them corners.
It would certainly be nice to see the cars narrower and shorter, but most of all lighter.
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T.S.Zarathusra wrote:
I thought hybrids were most effective when slowing (charging batteries) and accelerating out of corners, and Monaco has plenty of them corners.
The F1 hybrid system has two kinds of regeneration: a kinetic energy recovery mechanism (vaguely similar to what you're thinking of) but also a heat recovery system driven (I think) from the exhaust.

So it's not necessarily an easy comparison to (say) a Prius.

See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes_V6_Hybrid_Formula_One_engine
https://jalopnik.com/motorsport-explained-formula-1s-mgu-h-and-mgu-k-1849355365
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As I have understood it.
MGU-H is a "simple" turbocharger. This will add power on higher (than idle) RPM. Everywhere on the circuit.
MGU-K is a motor that "brakes" the engine on deceleration (and charges the batteries) then takes power from the batteries to add to engine power during acceleration. This will help in corners. The engine can also charge the batteries extra when the car is "not racing" (mostly in practice and quality warm up lap).
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Bill Dog wrote:
On the point of that - Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar and Abu Dhabi are all very close together and yet they are at opposite ends of the calender.
Because people go more often if the events are spaced apart?

How much of the total event emissions come from the teams and how much from spectators?

The good news is the oil didn't need to travel very far. Unless it's that Porsche eco stuff from Chile.
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T.S.Zarathusra wrote:
As I have understood it.
MGU-H is a "simple" turbocharger. This will add power on higher (than idle) RPM. Everywhere on the circuit.
MGU-K is a motor that "brakes" the engine on deceleration (and charges the batteries) then takes power from the batteries to add to engine power during acceleration. This will help in corners. The engine can also charge the batteries extra when the car is "not racing" (mostly in practice and quality warm up lap).
Yes, that's approximately my understanding as well.
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It just seems odd that a sports based business that produces a shit load of emissions from crossing the globe numerous times couldn't simplify it's logictics a bit to minimise it's footprint.

If you are going to promote the green message by racing Hybrids across the World don't kid us that the whole operation could be environmentally friendly.

Sure if advertising works then more Hybrids will be sold and that will be a good thing but I doubt that the return would be worth the investment as I don't think that more EV's have been sold because of the existence of Formula E.

You'd be more inclined to buy a generic product from the manufacturer than a Hybrid because you saw a Hybrid win a race.

Or am I wrong ?

Which brings me to Honda............
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T.S.Zarathusra wrote:
As I have understood it.
MGU-H is a "simple" turbocharger. This will add power on higher (than idle) RPM. Everywhere on the circuit.
MGU-K is a motor that "brakes" the engine on deceleration (and charges the batteries) then takes power from the batteries to add to engine power during acceleration. This will help in corners. The engine can also charge the batteries extra when the car is "not racing" (mostly in practice and quality warm up lap).
The MGU-H works in two ways. It recovers heat energy, converts this to electrical and adds it to the battery - but also it works in reverse where it will spin up the turbo using electrical energy in order to reduce lag and improve acceleration.

The MGU-K is built into the rear axle and when activated will take over some of the job of the brakes. It can then be used to directly power the rear wheels.
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Bill Dog wrote:
It just seems odd that a sports based business that produces a shit load of emissions from crossing the globe numerous times couldn't simplify it's logictics a bit to minimise it's footprint.
But the cars are nearly always travelling back to base.

If the calendar goes: Saudi, Vegas, Qatar, COTA - then the Ferrari F1 cars are going: Saudi, back to Italy, to Vegas, back to Italy, to Qatar, back to Italy, on to COTA.

In this sense, the calendar order makes no difference to emissions.

Then there will be a Middle East hospitality unit that will slowly move from Saudi to Qatar, and another USA hospitality unit that slowly moves from Vegas to Qatar.

It's not a case of all the hospitality units being flown around the world multiple times.
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So just stop the cars going back to its country of origin in between the races because you don't need to take them back to the factory.

If you can tie up two races, say Austraila and Japan you can surely tie up two more ?

The cars power units don't have to be replaced in the way that engines used to so why do they have to be sent back to base when everything that you need travels with the car ?
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Bill Dog wrote:
So just stop the cars going back to its country of origin in between the races because you don't need to take them back to the factory.
Why do you think the cars don't need to go back to the factory? They are constantly upgrading the cars, not to mention doing repairs after the drivers aim for every kerb on the track (or worse, the wall).
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Because cars get damaged during Free Practice and Qualifying and they don't go back to the Factory. They get repaired or parts replaced on site.

If a major part of the car gets damaged beyond repair ( be it through mechanical failure or pilot error ) they'll replace it and it goes to the back of the grid.

There's also a 3rd car in the truck waiting to be cannibalised or utilised.

We've all heard of "All Nighters" being pulled when an errant driver has whalloped the monocoque or torn off the suspension prior to the race and yet the next morning the car is ready to race.

Unless of course your name is Stroll.
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Bill Dog wrote:
Because cars get damaged during Free Practice and Qualifying and they don't go back to the Factory. They get repaired or parts replaced on site.
Agreed to a degree. I don't think that field repairs are to the level of perfection that the F1 teams would like to start a race with.
Bill Dog wrote:
There's also a 3rd car in the truck waiting to be cannibalised or utilised.
This is false. The days of a third F1 car are long since over.

There is an extra chassis on the truck, that needs to have all the necessary components added to it.
Bill Dog wrote:
We've all heard of "All Nighters" being pulled when an errant driver has whalloped the monocoque or torn off the suspension prior to the race and yet the next morning the car is ready to race.
That accounts for things that can be bolted together. But not for things like engine tuning. I'm not even certain that the field mechanics do any engine internal works, like replacing a failed part inside the engine.
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If a part fails inside the engine I believe that the entire ICE component of the power unit is replaced.

I think that they are allowed 4 engines in a season.

Busted on the 3rd car thing. I should have said there are enough parts to build a 3rd car.
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Bill Dog wrote:
If a part fails inside the engine I believe that the entire ICE component of the power unit is replaced.
In the field, yes. I believe (but am not 100% sure) that teams can service engines under FIA supervision, presumably back at the factory. I've seen cases where teams recycled previous components (i.e. engines or gearboxes) that were "in the pool" but had previously been taken out of service. Presumably, whatever was wrong with those components was repaired.

Obviously, if they blow up the entire engine, that unit is probably gone for good. But I suspect that not every failure is necessarily fatal.
Bill Dog wrote:
Busted on the 3rd car thing. I should have said there are enough parts to build a 3rd car.
Fair.
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A rumour circulating in the German Press is that Audi are having second thoughts about entering F1.

It did make me wonder why they took it on when Porsche already had a drive train ready to go but it's the VW group so it makes no sense at all.
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I think a varied season should include very different challenges.

Some races have incremental weather and put pressure on the strategy teams to manage short bursts of rain. Mexico being at high altitude punishes drivers who "overdrive" the car. To get a good lap time, it's all about being patient and smooth with the controls. Other tracks are all about wrestling the car round.

Monaco is basically the ultimate qualifying test. It usually rewards the driver who can put together the ultimate single lap - millimetres away from each barrier. It's never really been an overtaking track. If every race was like Monaco, it wouldn't work as a series, but for a single race out of 23 or 24 - I think it has its place and is incredibly unique on the calendar for that reason.
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The cars and the series have outgrown the circuit.

I want to see a race, not a game of Follow my Leader.

There are far more deserving circuits out there where F1 cars could actually race against each other such as Portamao which is just incredible.

Sure keep Monaco as a historic circuit but in my view it no longer deserves to be on the calendar.
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The cars have grown in length, but are narrower than they've been for quite awhile.

Current cars are around 2000mm wide, but they were around 2130mm in the 1990's, and 1980's.

A Monaco win is rated as one of the most prestigious on the calendar and is the one that all the drivers seem to want to chase.
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Have you watched a Monaco F1 Race recently ?

I mean we used to burn Witches because it was traditional, so yeah it's time to move on.
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But it's still probably one of the best qualifying experiences of the whole year.
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And so is Spa, oh and there's a race as well.
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See, I personally think Spa is a track that F1 has outgrown. Eau Rouge is now an easy flat out for every car on the grid, and is no longer the challenge it once was - even though it is a visual spectacle.

It only really becomes a challenge in the wet, at which point the stewards have to decide the exact limit at which it is no longer safe. If they cancel it too early, everyone gets annoyed. If they cancel it too late, people die. There's been 49 driver deaths there, including 3 single seater deaths in the last decade.

There just hasn't been the track developments to deal with the wet environment in which it's placed. It reminds me of when people build rigid concrete tower blocks in areas prone to earthquakes and then blame the earthquake when they crumble - when you have other places who build structures that are earthquake proof. They need to have a much better water drainage system, underground tanks and much better run off areas.

It's an amazing track for slower racing series though.
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Have you ever been to Spa ?

Have you ever been to Monaco ?

A few things you should know.

1 Eau Rouge has been reprofiled recently so it's slower than it was.

2 The Circuit recently spent 85 Million Euros on new infrastructure including new drainage systems.

3 The new water tanks are located at the end of Blanchimont. Above ground.

4 It's the best racing circuit in the world, according to the drivers, not me.

5 People lose their lives on slower circuits than Spa so does that make them more dangerous ? Look at the back of the ticket.

6 Monaco x 1 Because it's overated. Spa x 11 Because it's the best but you havn't been there so.....
⚠️ Last edited by Bill Dog on UTC; edited 4 times
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Monaco, not Spa. Surprisingly a lot of Vespas around in the build up to the race.
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Romain Grosjean has found himself another seat in Indycar next year.

Someone has more money than sense.
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Bill Dog wrote:
6 Monaco x 1 Because it's overated. Spa x 11 Because it's the best but you havn't been there so.....
Spa is an incredible track. It rewards guts, it rewards skill, it separates the men from the boys.

The only problem with Spa is that it's been taken over by Dutch soccer hooligans who don't have anything to cheer for in soccer anymore so now they're going to close by F1 races (Spa, Zandvoort and Austria) to drink beer and cheer on Max.

No fun in going to the F1 races anymore there.

WEC on the other hand is a blast at Spa.
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That's a fair observation. I was there to see Kimi win in 2009 and parts of Pouhon were a little bit lively but nothing in Europe compares to Sebring for the 12 hours.

The infield consists mostly of "Race Fans" who have rebuilt their entire living rooms out of pallets and 2 x 4's.

It's in a different league as was the drinking I saw at the Daytona 500 in 2005.

Monaco was more like a Cocktail Party.
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No spoilers, but for anyone who has not watched the Las Vegas race: make sure you watch it. Not the summary, the whole race.

IMHO, this was by far the greatest race of the season. There was so much action in it, maybe even more than all other races combined.

I enjoyed every minute of it.
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Mopmop wrote:
No spoilers, but for anyone who has not watched the Las Vegas race: make sure you watch it. Not the summary, the whole race.

IMHO, this was by far the greatest race of the season. There was so much action in it, maybe even more than all other races combined.

I enjoyed every minute of it.
I'm about to watch it now. It's 8:30am here in Porto, and I'm making tea and getting ready for some racing.
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Bit of everything in there, even Elvis Verstappen singing Viva Las Vegas ROFL emoticon good race.
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Excellent race!
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Stroll in 5th. How did that happen ?

Perez lost 2nd on the last lap. Brilliant.

Poor Norris. That was a hard hit.
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Las Vegas definitely exceeded my (admittedly low) expectations. Good to see some actual overtaking for a change.
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Hunt um down down George, was I hearing right, was that Tonto or Toto on the radio🤣
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BUGGSY wrote:
Hunt um down down George, was I hearing right, was that Tonto or Toto on the radio🤣
Yeah, pretty sure that was Toto Wolff.
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Bill Dog wrote:
Stroll in 5th. How did that happen ?

Perez lost 2nd on the last lap. Brilliant.

Poor Norris. That was a hard hit.
Why brilliant for Perez losing 2nd place?
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P2 is the new P1.
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MPO I think Sergio coming from 11th on the grid and having to stop and change the front wing then coming from almost last up to P3 in the end is pretty dam good. he had alot more downforce in the front wing than needed but to finish where he did BRILLANT.

All in all just another BORING F1 race again though.
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