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Molto Verboso
![]() Dongfang 170cc, CF Moto Fashion 250
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Atypical Canadian
![]() 2009 Vespa S50(LX150 motor swap), 2006 Vespa GTS250ie
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Posts: 2319 Location: Toronto, Canada |
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The cop said "80% of riders involved in serious crashes don't brake at all or brake with only the back brake"
Two questions: 1) Who are these people? 2) Why do they want to ruin insurance rates for the rest of us? Re: ABS vs none - none of my half dozen motorcycles and Vespa have ABS. I live in the most densely populated city in my country. Emergency stops are, unfortunately, all too common. I was never too concerned about it, despite knowing (and even making content on) the reports Ryan was citing.... Still nice to hear things will, hopefully, be just fine. The trouble I had with the reports on ABS vs non ABS accidents, was that they didn't isolate rider experience and instead looked at riders as a whole. If we put a beginner motorcyclist on a bike with ABS, vs without, we don't know if the results he'll get are the same as if we put an experienced rider to the same test... Any debate with no one clear winner usually just means we need more/better data... |
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Addicted
2015 Sprint 150, 2018 GTS 300
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Posts: 894 Location: SoCal |
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adri wrote: The cop said "80% of riders involved in serious crashes don't brake at all or brake with only the back brake" Two questions: 1) Who are these people? 2) Why do they want to ruin insurance rates for the rest of us? In 2003-2005 I insured a Yamaha R1 full coverage $600 USD a year, now I get quotes for $2700 a year for new 600cc sportbikes, that's with 40 years of motorcycle license and a perfect driving record. |
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The takeaway from this video is most assuredly not "ZOMG ABS IS BAD DON'T GET A BIKE WITH ABS!1!".
The message is that an experienced rider, ideally under controlled (but maybe even uncontrolled!) conditions can outbreak ABS. This is a well-known fact. But most riders, even the experienced ones, are still prone to panic braking when that asshat in the SUV turns left in front of them. Maybe not every single time, but enough times to endanger their life and several of their limbs. ABS really does save lives. And limbs. If you can outbreak it, great. No problem. Hat's off to you. Keep it up. Missed one? Oops. Now you're dead. Sorry.
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Atypical Canadian
![]() 2009 Vespa S50(LX150 motor swap), 2006 Vespa GTS250ie
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Posts: 2319 Location: Toronto, Canada |
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CaliforniaCruising wrote: Seems they are rating only the bikes record not the driver's record/risk these days. In 2003-2005 I insured a Yamaha R1 full coverage $600 USD a year, now I get quotes for $2700 a year for new 600cc sportbikes, that's with 40 years of motorcycle license and a perfect driving record. Perfect storm of a lot of factors leading to that. And again we don't have enough data to know if these are the guys who never stopped riding overconfident/unlucky/slower to react, orrrrr (probably more likely) the ones who got back into riding after a 30 year hiatus and now have purchased with egos that exceed their skill level. My aunt's husband is a perfect example. He hasn't gotten hurt but this summer he finally admitted where he's at and said "Why don't you go find me one of those Vespe you ride?" This is a guy who used to be the guy who buys the fastest production motorcycle available. It's a big step for him to come to terms with where he's at and switch gears and take it down a peg before he would have hurt himself. You might be getting lumped in with the dudes who are your age riding bikes way beyond their skillset and getting themselves hurt. Again who are these people and why do they want to ruin insurance rates for the rest of us??? |
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Molto Verboso
Gina, 1965 Vespa 180SS, Bella,1968 Vespa 150 Super, Mia, 2017 Vespa Primavera 70th Anniversary 150ie, Gabriella, 2017 GTS300 ABS
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Posts: 1941 Location: Hamilton/Kirikiriroa, NZ |
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Molto Verboso
![]() Gina, 1965 Vespa 180SS, Bella,1968 Vespa 150 Super, Mia, 2017 Vespa Primavera 70th Anniversary 150ie, Gabriella, 2017 GTS300 ABS
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Posts: 1941 Location: Hamilton/Kirikiriroa, NZ |
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adri wrote: Again who are these people and why do they want to ruin insurance rates for the rest of us??? |
Veni, Vidi, Posti
![]() LX190 Friday afternoon special, [s]Primavera[/s], S50, too many pushbikes
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adri wrote: The cop said "80% of riders involved in serious crashes don't brake at all or brake with only the back brake" Two questions: 1) Who are these people? |
Ossessionato
![]() Triumph Bonneville 2022, Triumph Street Scrambler 2018 (sold), Suzuki VanVan200 (sold), 2015 Sprint 125 (sold)
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Statistically, when an experienced rider with a good skillset makes a mistake, crashes and dies, how would she/he be classified in statistics?
![]() Was she/he really so good she/he thought to be? Or if she/he was, how many mistakes are allowed to take away skills -credentials? One for a fatal accident? A dozen for just scratches? Then again, if she/he never had an accident before the fatal one, was she/he really that skillful, or just a chicken who never really dared to push the limits? Darn these statistics can get complicated...I'll guess what holds is that a dead biker is a dead biker and the less we'll get those the better. So, to the point of the vid and OP - practice, practice... |
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Try riding in London during rush hour or gangs of youths with 3ft machete trying to Rob ya bike...
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Red Devil SH150i (11,000)
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Posts: 3305 Location: Orange Park Florida |
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![]() Red Devil SH150i (11,000)
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Situational awareness is more important than any safety feature. +25,000 miles of Doordash in 1 1/2 year with only one emergency braking situation. I use turn by turn with ear buds with the cords to help with phone drops and losing the phone during pickups. I use a sticky note for address numbers.
One day I was in 3 lanes of heavy traffic, I looked down at the paper and when I looked up, wow what a rush. I Will never own a phone ram mount. The time to pull over to use the phone IS worth my life. ⚠️ Last edited by breaknwind on UTC; edited 1 time
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Atypical Canadian
![]() 2009 Vespa S50(LX150 motor swap), 2006 Vespa GTS250ie
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Posts: 2319 Location: Toronto, Canada |
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breaknwind wrote: Situational awareness is more important than any safety feature. +25,000 miles of Doordash in 1 1/2 year with only one emergency braking situation. I use turn by turn with ear buds with the cords to help with phone drops and losing the phone during pickups. I use a sticky note for address numbers. One day I was in 3 lanes of heavy traffic, I looked down at the paper and when I looked up, wow what a rush. I Will never own a phone ram mount. The time to pull over to use the phone IS worth my life. Try doing those same 25,000 miles in Toronto, Ontario. Population, 3,000,000. Might get more than one emergency braking situation over here
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Red Devil SH150i (11,000)
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![]() Red Devil SH150i (11,000)
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skids wrote: For someone who fits this category the ABS equipped vehicle is much more dangerous. The only edge case where ABS might get in the way is if the rider opts to do a stoppy.
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![]() Triumph Bonneville 2022, Triumph Street Scrambler 2018 (sold), Suzuki VanVan200 (sold), 2015 Sprint 125 (sold)
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FortNine could have tried the test on a wet surface, or with some depris scattered around, or in a slight curve...real conditions, that is
I have only a 'traditional' ABS in my own bike. I rented a bike early this year that had the latest 'cornering ABS'. I rode a lot of twisties, but have to confess that I did not try very hard to test those...with a significant deposit placed at the rental's and all. A 'bonus' was continuous measurement of the bikes leaning angle. Could not help following the display to see how far I leant this time...and, of course, the novelty wore off within the first half hour of mountain twisties, after which I switched the particular screen off. Still, it was nice to know there was some extra backup to cover my own mistakes. That said, I think the deposit fee was good enough backup to keep me in a tight leash. |
Veni, Vidi, Posti
![]() LX190 Friday afternoon special, [s]Primavera[/s], S50, too many pushbikes
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skids wrote: For someone who fits this category...
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Atypical Canadian
![]() 2009 Vespa S50(LX150 motor swap), 2006 Vespa GTS250ie
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breaknwind wrote: A pound of feathers is lighter than a pound of lead?????? If a pound of anything can weigh six times less on the moon than it does on earth, than it stands to reason a lot of miles in a very congested place and a lot of miles in the boonies might also yield two very different experiences.
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Atypical Canadian
![]() 2009 Vespa S50(LX150 motor swap), 2006 Vespa GTS250ie
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Posts: 2319 Location: Toronto, Canada |
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skids wrote: { Was this in/around Orange Park, Florida? Population of 13,000 ish? While parts of Florida may not be nearly as congested as a city of 3 million I am absolutely positive the idiot per person ratio is at least ten times higher than that of Toronto...just google "Florida man" and let the autofill do the rest and you will see what I mean! Food for thought: If the idiot per capita ratio is 10x greater in Orange Park, Florida, like you said... but the population of Toronto is 230x greater than that of Orange Park... Guess where you're more likely to run into (or get run into by) an idiot... |
Atypical Canadian
![]() 2009 Vespa S50(LX150 motor swap), 2006 Vespa GTS250ie
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znomit wrote: 90% of the population think they drive/ride better than 90% of the population.
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
![]() LX190 Friday afternoon special, [s]Primavera[/s], S50, too many pushbikes
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breaknwind wrote: A pound of https://www.cntraveler.com/stories/2014-04-14/the-laurentide-ice-sheet-maphead |
Veni, Vidi, Posti
![]() LX190 Friday afternoon special, [s]Primavera[/s], S50, too many pushbikes
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adri wrote: I wanna be where you are. Well, actually, 49.9%, because our gravity is better than yours. |
Atypical Canadian
![]() 2009 Vespa S50(LX150 motor swap), 2006 Vespa GTS250ie
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Posts: 2319 Location: Toronto, Canada |
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znomit wrote: Canadians are indeed lightweights. https://www.cntraveler.com/stories/2014-04-14/the-laurentide-ice-sheet-maphead And now instead of blaming myself for the buffet-induced weight gain when I come back from a vacation in the Caribbean, I'll just tell myself the extra weight is just because I was out of Canada too long |
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![]() LX190 Friday afternoon special, [s]Primavera[/s], S50, too many pushbikes
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adri wrote: Interesting read, thanks for sharing that. A pound really does weigh something different depending on where you are. And now instead of blaming myself for the buffet-induced weight gain when I come back from a vacation in the Caribbean, I'll just tell myself the extra weight is just because I was out of Canada too long |
Atypical Canadian
![]() 2009 Vespa S50(LX150 motor swap), 2006 Vespa GTS250ie
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znomit wrote: Careful, such a dramatic change in weight distribution might throw the earth off balance, reversing the magnetic field. All those Florida men driving home for Christmas will end up in Canada. And there's no way to stop them because they rely on ABS, which we know doesn't work at all. And Ryan will get eaten by a alligator he mistakes for a friendly exploding eyeball Canadian short horned lizard. Fun fact: Florida is the only place in the world with both crocodiles and alligators. Next time I see Ryan I'll warn him. |
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adri wrote: I <3 "Florida Man" content lol
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![]() 2007 250 GTS, 1980 P200E, 2010 ThunderFly 190 (SOLD) 2015 Yamaha SMax (SOLD)
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The margin of error for threshold braking is pretty small. There are variable factors at play including road surface, weather, and tire condition. This means finding that threshold can vary greatly for riders, regardless of their experience level.
ABS helps manage that margin of error. A highly skilled rider on familiar equipment in a controlled environment could indeed outperform ABS. But ABS prevents the rider from locking one or both tires that might result in an uncontrolled slide. Overall, ABS is a good thing for nearly all riders in any conditions.
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Yes, road surface and weather are a big factor in how useful ABS is in a motorcycle. The FortNine clip doesn't take that into account much.
Let's also recognize that most of us will lack the experience and practice to deal with emergency situations as well as ABS can.
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![]() 2020 MP3 500 HPE Sport ABS/ASR
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skids wrote: I have to agree with Breaknwind though that situational awareness is the single most important factor in motorcycle/moped/bicycle safety. You have to be ready for the idiots no matter where you are when you are riding. It also means not riding faster than you can react to. I lane-split a lot on my commute. I am clearly one of the slowest riders in the "motorcycle lane", and I understand that there are other riders who can safely ride faster than me. However, I frequently see riders who ride faster than anyone could react to a car suddenly pulling in front of them. They are, in essence, counting on the odds and the attentiveness of drivers to keep them safe. The odds catch up to you sooner or later and, as far as counting on there not being idiots (or just inattentive drivers) on the road - well, you know.
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![]() Triumph Bonneville 2022, Triumph Street Scrambler 2018 (sold), Suzuki VanVan200 (sold), 2015 Sprint 125 (sold)
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Learning from crashes - an interesting question.
I've never seriously competed with a 2-wheeler, but used to practice quite a lot when younger. I personally can't say that the crashes have been major learning points. Rather practising and finding out when things went better and when worse near the 'sweet spot'. A not so good example for real life traffic, but just an example: to master our balance, and just for the heck of it, we practiced wheelies. My personal target was to be able to do a wheelie around a 400m running track....which was, of course, illegal also here and somewhat stupid, but hey, we were young. I did fall of during wheelies in multiple ways and many times during years, but those were either stupid accidents (like finding a too deep pothole etc.) or balance gone totally south...or actually backwards. What enabled me to finally ride the full circuit was to ride and ride and ride at that sweet spot where the bike feels weightless, not slipping forward nor backward and doing tiny adjustment with the throttle and my body...and the more I spent there, at the sweet spot, the better I managed the process and was able to get there even after gear changes. As said, a stupid example,but I feel that the same thing applies to e.g. breaking. Having done many, many, many succesfull breakings teach more than crashing because of a breaking gone south? Just my 2 cents, as said, I'm not a professional. |
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![]() 2020 MP3 500 HPE Sport ABS/ASR
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skids wrote: Personally I think that if you have never crashed a two wheeled vehicle you have no idea of exactly what you are capable of, you haven't even come close to finding where your limits are. Conversely if you have had multiple crashes (or whatever word you want to use for laying it down or falling off) that you have a pretty good idea of just where those limits are and in fact the more crashes you have had quite probably the better your awareness of just where those limits are. How is that for neurodivergent thinking? Does it make any sense? 1) The first was when I was ten years old. I was riding my Schwinn Traveler bicycle and turned to wave goodbye to some friends. I then crashed into the rear end of a parked car and went over the handlebars. 2) The second was my first full day of riding a scooter after a 40+ year hiatus. I couldn't manage a turn and went straight into the curb at about 5 mph. 3) The third was a more serious crash seven months later. I was "left-turned" as I rode through an intersection. What did I learn? 1) Keep your eyes on the road ahead and don't get distracted. 2) Competence is extremely important. I had just taken the basic rider course and thought I knew everything. I discovered that I didn't know how to countersteer. I also learned that my riding gear wasn't adequate - even at 5 mph I got injured and earned my first ambulance ride to the ER. I read Proficient Motorcycling as I recovered. 3) Complacency kills. This crash was 100 percent the driver's fault, but I might have been able to avoid it. I noticed that he was acting strange, just sitting at a green light with plenty of room to turn in front of me. I did slow down as I entered the intersection. I should have changed lanes to the right to allow myself more space and time, but I had ridden through intersections countless times and nothing had happened. My second trip to the ER, this time with more serious injuries. I was wearing much better and more complete gear, without which I might not have survived. |
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skids wrote: I love a good debate So I'll do what you didn't do, and get to the point: ABS will not kick in if you don't lock up the wheel. If you can brake without locking up the wheel, then ABS is irrelevant. The rest of your argument is just self-congratulatory masturbation. See how concise that was?
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![]() 2006 Vespa GTS250ie, 2005 Vespa ET4, 2022 Royal Enfield Himalayan, 2001 Kawasaki W650, 2023 Honda Trail 125.
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jess wrote: Your post is not a response in a debate, it's nearly a manifesto. If this were a debate, you'd be disqualified for going over the time limit. And to be perfectly honest, I don't have nearly enough patience to pick through the huge pile of irrelevant nonsense you've posted just to point out all the ways that you've managed to completely misunderstand ABS. So I'll do what you didn't do, and get to the point: ABS will not kick in if you don't lock up the wheel. If you can brake without locking up the wheel, then ABS is irrelevant. The rest of your argument is just self-congratulatory masturbation. See how concise that was? I've never had anti-lock brakes on any of my scooters but do have it on my Himalayan and on some other motorcycles I've ridden. So far it has never engaged. In part because I'm a rather lethargic rider, in part because I practice panic braking, and in part because of dumb luck that has kept me out of a situation where it's needed. Relying solely on anti-lock brakes to save my ass seems wrong. And when I'm riding off-road, I turn off the rear antilock so I can skid to a stop if necessary. But even there the front brake has never engaged the antilock. |
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
![]() LX190 Friday afternoon special, [s]Primavera[/s], S50, too many pushbikes
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skids wrote: The likelihood of locking the wheels in a panic stop very high especially in slippery conditions. Better to not have ABS.
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